How many players has he fallen out with then ? Just curious
Fleetwood 1 United 1 - report
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How many players has he fallen out with then ? Just curious
longinthe toothblade
Member
How did you rate our performance yesterday?
Guesty
Well-Known Member
My obvious agenda? It's the first time I've commented on the issue!
My point is that either way, even then or now, Clough has dropped a massive clanger. My instinct would be that he erred in signing him rather than not playing him but as you say, we don't know.
So in essence, I agree with you but twaddle about agendas does you no favours.
average to say the least but there were a few positives from some players. I was dissapointed more with NC as I thought it was obvious in the 2nd half they were going to use the flanks so we needed to go 4-4-2 about 5 mins into the 2nd half.
I wouldn't have brought McNulty on,I would have brought JCR on instead of Baxter,brought Wallace next to Doyle and attacked down both flanks and get crosses in to the two forwards. The crossing again yesterday was poor as it was often from 30 yards out rather than the by-line
longinthe toothblade
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Yep - room for improvement!
Deadbat
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Interesting a few have thought Higdon we better than I said; and a few worse. Ditto for O'Grady.
I think the pair for an experienced striker duo did not do enough overall but the odd shape did not help them. When we got a few crosses in they looked dangerous; such as when Higdon headed wide.
Cannot agree with poster on McCarthy. Felt he was poor. McEveley was the better of the two but continued his penchant for giving free kicks away on the edge of the box. Flynn looked like he was not a full back.
As for Wallace, other than one turn and shot I felt he was never in the game. He is quite slow and lightweight. I know it was his debut but he showed nothing on that to suggest he will improve the side. Might be harsh but can only go on what I saw. We lost the midfield battle and he and Doyle were poor second half. Baxter was equally ineffective but was subbed well before end and we got even worse after he went off.
There were a lot of non descript-average performances against a so so side that really we should be casting aside but in the end we were the side defending more than them at the end.
Once again if they had stepped up the tempo, every department played 5-10 yards higher up and we pressed them more; we would have got more of the ball and thus more chances. It was all so pedestrian (from both sides). United don't seem to realise half the season has gone and the top teams are putting wins in most weeks. We are kind of ambling along without any real sign of a run. I would really consider brining 3 or 4 players in January and shaking things up (at least two strikers, another central midfielder and a right back).
I think the pair for an experienced striker duo did not do enough overall but the odd shape did not help them. When we got a few crosses in they looked dangerous; such as when Higdon headed wide.
Cannot agree with poster on McCarthy. Felt he was poor. McEveley was the better of the two but continued his penchant for giving free kicks away on the edge of the box. Flynn looked like he was not a full back.
As for Wallace, other than one turn and shot I felt he was never in the game. He is quite slow and lightweight. I know it was his debut but he showed nothing on that to suggest he will improve the side. Might be harsh but can only go on what I saw. We lost the midfield battle and he and Doyle were poor second half. Baxter was equally ineffective but was subbed well before end and we got even worse after he went off.
There were a lot of non descript-average performances against a so so side that really we should be casting aside but in the end we were the side defending more than them at the end.
Once again if they had stepped up the tempo, every department played 5-10 yards higher up and we pressed them more; we would have got more of the ball and thus more chances. It was all so pedestrian (from both sides). United don't seem to realise half the season has gone and the top teams are putting wins in most weeks. We are kind of ambling along without any real sign of a run. I would really consider brining 3 or 4 players in January and shaking things up (at least two strikers, another central midfielder and a right back).
Deadbat
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The fact 2 or 3 shots whizzed past our post in the final few minutes. They were the better side second half. We did shade the first half. A draw was about fair but if anyone looked like winning the game it was them. Their manager admitted such ad Clough conceded it as a good point (which both kind of backs this up).
I have no superior insight. Just wrote a report of a game I saw. Some might agree. Some might not. That is what the forum is for. Why the digs and personal attacks? Just wondering.
I enjoy reading the reports Deadbat and if I've been to a game I generally agree with what you've written. Therefore, I go with what you've said. Obviously you may not be 100% accurate with your observations, but it must be close.
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I think you were stood in front of me, if you were talking to the young-ish looking lad about it in front of you? I was stood just to the right of the net.
I agree re: Higdon. He's not the best and he could do more but there were plenty of occasions yesterday that he brought others into play well and others where he could have done better. The one you mentioned where the cross went over his head was just laughable, there was more chance of me reaching it from the terrace.
I felt Wallace showed a few glimpses and had some nice touches but made a couple of bad decisions that forced him to give the ball away. There was one particular point in the second half where he turned into three players in the centre circle. I've not seen anything to suggest that he's ever played in central midfield though so it was a tough ask for him yesterday. I think he has potential but we shall see.
I don't think McCarthy was particularly bad but his distribution is appalling, especially when you consider he's played at the top level. It's very sloppy.
The problem for me yesterday was that we sat back once we went in front. We were in complete control for the majority of the first half and then seemed content with 1-0. That's all well and good when you're a decent defensive unit, but we're struggling to keep teams out. Defend by keeping the ball in their half and try to grab a second to give yourself a bit more comfort. They couldn't live with us when we pushed forward and their only answer to Murphy was to take him out.
I heard a few around me that were baffled by bringing Basham on and putting him at right back, but it was necessary. Flynn struggled in the second half and Proctor was pulling on him for more direct balls which Flynn just has no chance of dealing with. If we hadn't made that change we would have most likely conceded again.
Fleetwood are no mugs at home and it is depressing that we have to be content with a point at a team like that, but that's a sign of where we are. Their chairman has done wonders for that club and it was a tidy little ground. Good luck to them. Even those that had the 'Ultras de Cod' flag.
GRUMPY BLADE
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Them that slagged No 17 were worst.
P
pommpey
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Bit high handed, isn't it, Pinchy? I think I speak for all distant Blades on here who rely on third party reporting in that we are grateful for people like Deadbat for taking time to write the match up in as much detail as can be. Many of us do cross-refer his comments with other sources and generally, Deadbat is accurate about the games he sees. Certainly, the results bear his point of view out, don't they? So where is the contradiction you allude to? Did we win 4-0? Did our strikers bulldoze their defence all over the park? Certainly, watching the goal they scored, it can be seen that Flynn is well away from his man allowing the cross to get in and their goalscorer does seem to have an acre of space to nod the ball across the six yard box and into the far corner. Just like Deadbat says, in fact. That doesn't need superior insight, just a good memory and a knack of getting it on the internet for us to read. I'd be concerned if we had won 4-0 and everyone said the team put in a shift and dominated and Deadbat came on and said we played shit. But history in that case show nothing contrary. Deadbats reports have showed a few consistent things, namely:
Howard - 'didn't have a lot to do' (so the goals we give away are a bit needless and come all of nothing)
Defence - still don't know what the fuck they are doing, and no one puts in a 8/10 these days since Maguire left
Midfield - same old same old with Doyle still not taking much charge, JCR doing his former inconsistent self games, Murphs looking class but only when the wind blows in the right direction - 20-1 Bar for the rest
Attack - well, the goals scored by the say it all - Deadbat doesn't need to much say owt about them
You tell us then. As Deadbat says, we spent a good part of yesterdays game under some sort of pressure. Fleetwood could have scored on a number of occasions which, when you're 3-0 up isn't much of a worry but when you are 1 up, and then level, is a big worry. I'd say that's why we were lucky to come away with the solitary point. It could have been three, don't forget.
Why don't you write your report and give us a chance to compare, eh? Serious question, by the way.
pommpey
bladeinspaceandtime
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Yup, read that and it doesn't answer my "silly" question. What's silly about it? You posed that Clough had "started the process", I was inquiring as to what "process" this was?
Bergen Blade
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I think McCarthy is at his best when his team is under pressure and he has to give his all to get his body in the way, headers, tackles, clearances, things that requires full concentration on keeping the ball out. He can look a bit like a warrior when the game is like that.
Being experienced, and coming from a Premiership club may have made people think that we'd be getting a classy, elegant, ball playing centre half to show us the way forward. But he's not got that kind of ability. I'm not sure he's quite what we need. Like you bartman I think people have been slightly harsh on him, due to his poor passing. Yesterday I thought he looked very uncomfortable when players were running at him though.
Our main weakness is our lack of goals scored and with that in mind we should remember that both Basham and Collins would give the team more composure, better passing and the occasional run on the ball.
anglian blade
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Lane Ender
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The process at the moment is in reverse
Bergen Blade
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Fear. Fear of your opinion becoming too influential, ultimately forcing the club to get rid of Clough due to fan pressure and then bringing back Kevin Blackwell with Nick Montgomery as his playing assistant and Joe Ironside as our main striker.
P
pommpey
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I agree. But Clough should fear nothing. I still say we have a good manager who is hobbled with a shit team, having been promised the moon once Weir was given the toe-end up his scone-cutter. Cast your minds back - Clough didn't do a Blackwell ("It took the time fro my bottom lip to reach my top lip to say 'yes' to the Sheffield United job") he stalled and had some negotiating to do first. I suspect this might have been 'what are my resources?' and given we had just got the Saudi on board, does anyone think the story was woven 'Yeah, Nige. Meet the Prince. See 2015? Championship. See 2016? Premier League. See 2017? Europe' or something of the like? I don't even think he'd have darkened our door if he'd have had 'Yeah Nige. Loanees, undisclosed and freebies mate. Nope, not until you get into the Championship. Sorry pal. Sign here.' and we are drawing away against fucking Fleetwood, dropping valuable points at home and watching our hopes dissolve into a hopeful shot in the fucking goddamned playoff jamouree. Everyones saying oh, he's playing negative, boring football. Well, with the scope of players we have, only two I would think those in Shitsville S6 would even sign, wouldn't you be playing negative, given we can't hang onto leads or even slip one behind out of nothing recently?
What grinds my gearing are people who think we critics are having a go at the optimists here. We are not. We know who is to blame for all this and it isn't those who back the club, come what may. The blame lies with the board. That's the top and bottom of it. People who chunter one about 'dark forces' on here 'always bringing United down' and 'always turning up when we lose' are completely missing the point and their vexation smacks of embarrassment that once to many time on here this - and last - season, the stats uphold the criticism more than the blind optimism cloaks the real problems.
What we have to fear is Clough having enough of this pantomime and fucking off to a better deal. Then what?
pommpey
Grecian2000
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I think his actual time playing at the top level is limited to coming on as a second half sub once last season. We may have loaned him from a Premiership club but he isn't a seasoned player at that level by any means.
I'm afraid he's a professional footballer and, part of that, is helping us keep the ball. His desperate distribution simply means we are under pressure again as he's just given it back to the opposition.
Dnblade
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Cheers for the report DB..I had to listen to,the commentary on RS,which the only thing I gained from that was Sir Keith liking the look of Wallace...Looking at the Highlights Baxter was involved with an exchange of one touch passes that put Murphy in on goal for his effort and then the next clip shows Baxter pick out a great first time pass to pick out Harris who did well to finish...what puzzles me is he gets a 5.5 while Doyle,Higdon and others get higher scores...but as usual a low score for about the only player who is creating chances and looking to be positive..Not knocking your view of things but those 2 exchanges of play were significant contributions towards trying to win the game that in my view ..with the possible exception of Murphy..nobody else is offering.
crucialkneeligaman
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The last quote I heard from Nigel about McGinn was when he was singing his praises, though he obviously doesn't see him anywhere around the first team squad at the moment. Butler wasn't given long enough, Collins isn't good enough long term, but is no worse than McCarthy who is obviously going to be on his way out of Palace in the not too distant future.
Woodwardfan
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The board did not sign all these players.
We have a much bigger budget than Swindon, Posh and MKD, probably a bit more than Bristol and Preston, way more than Rochdale, Nottingham, Oldham, Bradford and Fleetwood.
Having said that, there is a long way to go this season and there is time. What we are all worried about is the state our team is in at this vital stage of the season. The signs are not encouraging and these players are all on new contracts.
LSF
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Id suggest he doesn't know Bart as none of us do, but its an easy suggestion when Clough drops, rests, discards a player. He has around 23/24 at his disposal, can only pick 11 starters and probably hates the guts of the rest
Rodley
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12 permanent deals and 2 loans. You can't say he hasn't been backed at L1 level.
If we make 2 or 3 new signings at Christmas, we'll be getting close to 20 (!!!) new signings this season.
To be fair I think a lot are good quality players, it's just not working at the minute though.
P
pommpey
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Hang on. These 'permanent deals'. How much was spent? Before anyone gets all 'money doesn't guarantee quality', I say, in more cases than not it does, especially if they are coming from leagues above Div 1.
Anyone got a breakdown of outs and ins since Clough joined and the costs therein?
pommpey
Northyorksblade
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I reckon Keith has been told to be more positive, most positive I've ever heard him From listening to BP, I thought the team had a stormer, especially in the first half. But listening to people who went it sounds as if we're just NGE.
in fairness we did play OKl in the first half. Took the game to them and we were deservedly in front. However.in the 2nd half we didn't adapt to their change in tactics, certain players went missing and we didn't show much composure when 20 yards from goal.
You can't blame negative tactics as we were clearly trying to get forward. However the lack of a quality when we get close to the opposition area is a concern which meant you couldn't really see us getting a 2nd goal
Balham
S24SU Seer
2013-14: net spend (transfer fees only) = £400k
Ins:
Brayford (L)
Davies (L)
Harris (swap)
Scougall (£400k)
Outs:
McMahon (swap)
Williams (free - contract paid up)
King (free - contract paid up)
2014-15 (net income £2.1m)
Ins:
Davies (free)
J Wallace (free)
Campbell-Ryce (free)
Basham (free)
McNulty (£125k)
Alcock (free)
McGahey (£75k)
Higdon (£200k)
Butler (free)
Turner (free, short term)
McEveley (free)
McCarthy (L)
O'Grady (L)
K Wallace (free)
Adams (£100k)
Outs:
Brandy (free - contract paid up)
Taylor (£100k)
McGinty (free)
Maguire (£2.5m)
Butler (L)
The argument that I can't get away from is that far from having a core of 18-19 players as Clough spoke about at the start of the season, we've got a huge squad with several senior pros seemingly frozen out. We could field a full XI with four subs made up of players who joined since the end of last season and that's before you add in the 10 (?) players with first team experience still here from last season.
In addition, of the outgoings there are three whose contracts we've paid up - players so bad we have paid them to leave. That's unbelievable. The Butler débacle will be another one when he leaves in January.
I really wish there was a coherent recruitment strategy but it appears to be the result of a significant amount of panic buying.
P
pommpey
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So Clough has spent just under £1m and we've had over twice as much as that in from sales.
So, here's the follow up set of questions I want the optimists in particular to pay attention to.
1. Has the board put any money in at all toward strengthening the squad - in particular the first team in areas we need it?
2. Is the 'money available in January' simply the residual from the Maguire sale? If so, how much of it?
What I am trying to ascertain is 'game changing investments'.
Cheers Balham, BTW.
pommpey
Balham
S24SU Seer
pommpey I swing between optimistic and downbeat when it comes to United. I guess the best way to describe it is optimism, tinged with the painful realisation that crushing disappointment is only just around the corner.
That said, I think the answer to your question lies in the money which isn't on there for transfer fees. What are the relative wages of the incoming and outgoing players? Part of the reason for Collins' exile may well be that he is one of the highest earners left at the club, given that only he and Doyle were senior players in our last Championship season. Clough has been allowed to expand the squad by 10 players (Cuvelier wears number 34; we started again at 1 with squad numbers this season) and working on £2,500 per week as an average takes us to £1,300,000 extra in pay per year - that's the Maguire money gone before we worry ourselves with paying signing on fees, agents' fees and bonuses.
The Maguire money has gone. It's gone on paying average players above average wages for the division which is the story of every fucking season since 2005/06. For some reason, I and countless others seem to think that every new season will somehow be different.
The problem isn't the board. It isn't the manager. It's not even really the players. The problem is the decision making at the Lane is fucking awful.
I'm guessing wildly at the numbers here but these are players currently picking up a wage at United while doing (well, being asked to do) nothing towards our foundering attempts to get out of this backwater division:
Long (£1,500 per week, 0 league apps)
Turner (£1,500 per week, 0 league apps)
Butler (£5,000 per week, 0 league apps)
Porter (£1,000 per week, 0+1 league apps)
McGinn (£3,000 per week, 0 league apps)
Collins (£5,000 per week, 8 league apps (none since September))
Add in McCarthy - whatever we're paying him is too much. Not because he's a bad defender; more because we've found that the best centre half at the club is Basham but in order to accommodate McCarthy, we're playing him in central midfield. Which, incidentally, is where we have 9 senior players in the squad. NINE central midfielders.
We never learn.
UTB
That said, I think the answer to your question lies in the money which isn't on there for transfer fees. What are the relative wages of the incoming and outgoing players? Part of the reason for Collins' exile may well be that he is one of the highest earners left at the club, given that only he and Doyle were senior players in our last Championship season. Clough has been allowed to expand the squad by 10 players (Cuvelier wears number 34; we started again at 1 with squad numbers this season) and working on £2,500 per week as an average takes us to £1,300,000 extra in pay per year - that's the Maguire money gone before we worry ourselves with paying signing on fees, agents' fees and bonuses.
The Maguire money has gone. It's gone on paying average players above average wages for the division which is the story of every fucking season since 2005/06. For some reason, I and countless others seem to think that every new season will somehow be different.
The problem isn't the board. It isn't the manager. It's not even really the players. The problem is the decision making at the Lane is fucking awful.
I'm guessing wildly at the numbers here but these are players currently picking up a wage at United while doing (well, being asked to do) nothing towards our foundering attempts to get out of this backwater division:
Long (£1,500 per week, 0 league apps)
Turner (£1,500 per week, 0 league apps)
Butler (£5,000 per week, 0 league apps)
Porter (£1,000 per week, 0+1 league apps)
McGinn (£3,000 per week, 0 league apps)
Collins (£5,000 per week, 8 league apps (none since September))
Add in McCarthy - whatever we're paying him is too much. Not because he's a bad defender; more because we've found that the best centre half at the club is Basham but in order to accommodate McCarthy, we're playing him in central midfield. Which, incidentally, is where we have 9 senior players in the squad. NINE central midfielders.
We never learn.
UTB
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