Some stats for the season so far

[S64 Blade]

We do use the data analysis , Wilder often mentions "the numbers" in some of his interviews. I assume that means looking at the recorded data.

I was being pedantic about the experts part. Not sure James Bord can claim that with no credibility in the bank.

 

[ChefYouKnighted1889]

Bantam.

I was starting t think chicken shops but it's more curry houses,I might go for a lamb bhuna toneet actually made mi sen hungry

 

[Willglynning]

How would they know we was lucky? See i'd think ,well can't rely on stats can you. But i'm wrong apperently.

Because we won the game despite being second best based on the stats- which conveniently also correlates with the performance from the game itself.

 

[SBSP]

I really don’t understand people who completely dismiss stats.

Stats are literally the underlying numbers behind every game of football; and yes, people can use them to make arguments that support or contest specific viewpoints, but that doesn’t make them any more or less valid as a source of data.

The only people seemingly being ‘anti-stats’ in this thread are the pro-Wilder crowd who’d prefer to bury their heads in the sand than admit that their messiah’s lost his touch.

What are our most recent stats for xC (culture) or xP (passion)?

We must be doing well on those as it's all he chose to invest in this summer.

 

[SwissBlade]

This thread is telling. Not just because of uTurn 's analysis but the reactions to it.

Some stats, on their own, tell no story. I'm not particularly fond of xG for example. A team which takes a relatively early lead in a game, especially away from home, and holds that lead for a long time is likely to have a lower xG than it might have simply because that team doesn't need another goal but the opponent does. So the final xG "result" is skewed by necessity. Also, a cross which flashes across the six yard box which someone just fails to get a touch to is classified with an xG of 0.00, which is ridiculous.

However, when you take all this data in the round you can get a reasonable picture of where you are; and we are as lousy as the stats say. Anyone with any kind of objectivity can see that, and unless performances improve we're going to be flirting with relegation if not wedded to it.

Equally, Charlton's early season promise from those numbers looks like it's probably a mirage with points attached, so we'll see in due course if they also sink to where they seem to belong.

But some are suggesting we ignore these dry numerical warnings, plus the evidence of our own eyes because of what? Misty water colour memories?

The quote "Lies, damned lies and statistics" suggests that statistics can be used to frame an argument.

Its interesting to read this thread as I think there is a valid point being made in amongst what RandomBlade has said, but also misses some key points.

The main point i would make is that we shouldn't take stats and data in isolation, as RandomBlade alluded to, our eyes will tell us what stats can't always do.

In football and at United we've used data for years, probably decades, its just that now we have far more data than we've ever had and whilst it is useful, we have to be careful in how we use it. Adkins was using the GPS vests before Wilder came in and he was the first real user of data / stats in his interviews. Wilder v1 would often talk around it but didn't explicitly mention data. Wilder v2 mentioned data a lot more and v3 its often referenced.

The James Bord experiment was less about data being the problem, but the use of data in recruitment without having the football experts in control.

I think even in game or post game, stats become a part of the story, they should never be the story and i agree with your xG point, i think its less relevant than many want it to be. If you want to use xG:
United have scored 9 goals from roughly 9.8 xG. So we're not massively underperforming our attacking chances.
Conversely, we've conceded 11 from roughly 12.7 xGA. So the goals conceded aren't some freak statistical bad luck either.

The stats from 8 games so far can't be taken in isolation, with an overall snapshot
8 games | 2W 3D 3L | 9 points | Scored 9 Conceded 11

Summary
Performance: mixed
Chance creation: below where you'd want it
Defensive control: below where you'd want it
Efficiency: surprisingly good in several games
Quality of opposition: reasonably demanding (5 top 10 sides)
Main concern: the underlying numbers say this isn't sustainable if the chance creation/defensive balance doesn't improve. But you don't need numbers to see that when we have eyes.

The numbers say we're a limited, reactive side.
The reality is that we have already played some good opposition and we have been competitive enough in some games to collect results.
Norwich was the only game we've lost by 2 goals, both Stoke and Wolves we conceded the winning goal late in the game.

Its not a good look, we're not doing great

 

[YES Blade]

Are stats the be all and end all? Obviously not, there is only one stat that matters and that’s the final score.

It’s great if we can win ugly, but over a season we can’t rely on picking up many results whilst playing badly.

The stats are just backing up what I’m watching and it’s that we are a poor team and unless we improve we’ll do well to stay in the division.

 

[Willglynning]

Are stats the be all and end all? Obviously not, there is only one stat that matters and that’s the final score.

It’s great if we can win ugly, but over a season we can’t rely on picking up many results whilst playing badly.

The stats are just backing up what I’m watching and it’s that we are a poor team and unless we improve we’ll do well to stay in the division.

I think what stats do really help with is providing a benchmark, and a comparison point to other teams in the league, and historical comparisons too.

I agree with you completely, and the fact that we’re statistically one of the worst teams in the league in both attack and defence is concerning, and people trying to brush that off are just kidding themselves.

 

[Houston_Blade]

You're attempting to reason with a soulless being, I'm afraid.

He doesn't care about Basham arriving, just as he doesn't care about Wilder winning promotion.

He doesn't care about the magical moments - the ones that take your breath away, that make you grab the stranger next to you and hug him like a long-lost brother. The memories you cherish forever.

No, none of that. Just dry statistics and sneering condescension designed to make him look 'clever', aimed at anyone who dares question his drab, banal worldview.

Better to pity him than waste your time arguing with someone incapable of seeing the beauty life has to offer. No soul, you see.

My son has a little print of Basham arriving on his bedroom wall, he also thinks that the current team are absolutely dire.

He doesn’t need stats to show him that we’re dire, he just uses his eyes. However, the stats back up how bad we are both offensively and defensively. Not really sure why it’s a bad thing to point this out, unless you are blindly devoted to defending everything that the club does?

 

[ATL Recs]

My eyes told me I watched the Luton game and we won! It was a tactical masterclass .

It was the same as last and this season
Difference was 3-4 far superior players to provide moments of skill and win games

 

[RandomBlade]

It was the same as last and this season
Difference was 3-4 far superior players to provide moments of skill and win games

Yes spot on. Going to be a tedious season.

 

[RandomBlade]

Because we won the game despite being second best based on the stats- which conveniently also correlates with the performance from the game

Yes we won despite the stats, as do other teams despite the stats.

 

[RandomBlade]

I think what stats do really help with is providing a benchmark, and a comparison point to other teams in the league, and historical comparisons too.

I agree with you completely, and the fact that we’re statistically one of the worst teams in the league in both attack and defence is concerning, and people trying to brush that off are just kidding themselves.

Im not brushing anything off. All im saying is that I dont need stats to back up what im seeing on the pitch.

 

[uTurn]

Im not brushing anything off. All im saying is that I dont need stats to back up what im seeing on the pitch.

Which makes the fact that you've been the biggest presence on a stat-centric post particularly bewildering

 

[Lord Eddard Muir]

Bantam.

A lot of their younger fans use "up the fucking chickens" as a slogan

 

[RandomBlade]

Which makes the fact that you've been the biggest presence on a stat-centric post particularly bewildering

Its called having an opinion. Its an open forum, or am I a cunt as well for having an opposing opinion? Jesus you stat anoraks are so prescious.

 

[RandomBlade]

My son has a little print of Basham arriving on his bedroom wall, he also thinks that the current team are absolutely dire.

He doesn’t need stats to show him that we’re dire, he just uses his eyes. However, the stats back up how bad we are both offensively and defensively. Not really sure why it’s a bad thing to point this out, unless you are blindly devoted to defending everything that the club does?

Whose defending the club?

 

[uTurn]

Its called having an opinion. Its an open forum, or am I a cunt as well for having an opposing opinion? Jesus you stat anoraks are so prescious.

I couldn't care less if you choose to use your time continuing to post on this thread. As you say, it's an open forum.

I just know that I'd deem it a complete waste of my time to be commenting on a thread which is of zero interest to me. Hence I find it incredibly curious that that's what you're opting to do with yours.

 

[Carlton Blade]

2024 v Luton away. Luton 75% possession Blades 25% ... result Luton 1- 3 Sheffield United. What's the saying? Theres lies damn lies then statistics.

Go on impress me with a stat v stoke please do. It wasnt a tactical masterclass unlike V Luton?

OK give me the "stats" for Basham arriving? Another tactical masterclass.
While your at it give me the ""stats" for Ali v Foreman?

Now do the stats for every time a favourite crushed an underdog, or the results for when one team/person statistically dominated another.

If your argument is, 'sometimes sport throws up unlikely results' then I wholeheartedly agree. But you need to couch that with 'but in the overwhelming majority of occasions, what 'should' happen, does.

Watching the matches and looking at the stats, this is a team that needs a fundamental change in approach as well as individuals to up their levels

 

[Borbokisfreekick]

So someone analysing the Blackburn game without actually seeing it but looked at the stats then the score would come to what conclusion?

That we won undeservedly, and a draw was probably the fairest result, and that level of performance from United isn't going to be sustainable over a season and we'll finish bottom half.

Then you watch the game and the eye test matches what the stats say and is probably even more damning in terms of how shit we are in possession and how we have very little idea or plan on how to create chances.

 

[Lens instep catch]

As I mentioned earlier in the thread I personally prefer to evaluate what I see in a game and yes I realise that people see things differently as I think there are too many external influences which are not taken into account. I do believe however that the most important stats are the players personal performance stats this in my opinion should highlight the players that are not performing to to their previous stats and the players who are just not good enough and at the moment that is what I am seeing
I would like to say that players personal stats would also show which players are improving but unfortunately I don't think any are

 

[dc_blade]

Stats can be manipulated to support any argument. But the totally subjective opinions of an individual can't. Fact.

 

[djbaldken]

Our numbers indicate that we very poor at retaining possession, poor at creating chances, even in spite of our ability to often regain possession in advanced areas. We also are poor at denying shots on goal, and if our defenders' work rate drops off that is likely to only get worse.

I think this sums up our season so far.
Dire stats.
Unless something dramatic occurs leading up to Christmas we are deep in the shit.

 

[Nagima]

Stats are there to assist managers and coaches. They are used in most sports. Rugby, Tennis, American football, even in amateur games like Gaelic games in Ireland.

Possession does not guarantee a win. But having more shots on target will increase the probability of wins. And to have more shots on target you need to shoot more by creating chances.
A good counter attacking team can create those chances in good numbers when they break with speed and purpose.

Passing and passing accuracy may not be of much benefit with regards the result but to me when looking at each team members passing stats you see a picture that fits with what I see with my eyes. Generally our defenders have more passes than our central midfielders and wide midfielders.

We end up with the wrong people on the ball and in the wrong part of the pitch. If our defenders are pressed we hoof it or play it to a midfielder who is also pressed. Our poor performance in creating chances is mainly due to going wide too early to inverted wingers who have to cut inside to do anything.

Our defensive stats with high interceptions are not a reflection of a good defence but of a defence under pressure to make interceptions as our midfield can't hold on to the ball or pass it effectively.

If I were an opposition coach I would tell my players to press Choudhury who will foul you if you get the ball and RND who will hoof it down the line but without the panache of burrows and so turn over the ball. Peck has recently had a few shots with his left foot but in general he is so right footed he is easy to read. Under pressure he will turn sharply back on his right. Rothwell's stats confirm what I thought. That he generally hides from the ball when we have it and most of his passing is sideways.

Stats can help you in getting across your point to players so that they develop and the can be used by the opposition to target certain players to press.

 

[Gimli]

What are our most recent stats for xC (culture) or xP (passion)?

We must be doing well on those as it's all he chose to invest in this summer.

10cc (culture carriers)