The Academy

[SouthEssexBlade]

I do and to all intents and purposes you are right, its a list of people in professional football. The ones I would take out as the stand out worthwhiles are as follows:-

Kyles x 2
Long
Lowton
Harry
Stephen Quinn (although I thought he came as part of a package with Alan Quinn)
Billy Sharp

These are the ones who would or could have made a positive difference to us. Nicky Law is arguable and the rest are dross dropping through the trapdoor into non league. Long is in my opinion a good keeper but he may yet end up dropping through the same trap door.

If you are arguing we produce professional footballers, you have me. If you are saying we are producing a conveyor belt of talent I would say you are on shaky ground. I don't say its a failure and I don't say people should be hung for trying, I just say we should be honest about its contribution.

Back to your original argument of a stream of talent playing in the first team. Add your 7 to the current team and how do you rate our chances this season?

 

[Darren]

Back to the list of PL clubs I produced earlier. The issue of attracting players doesn't just apply to the 1st team, but also at academy level as well. Which is why Man Utd still attract the best young talent here and Fleetwood struggle. Given our position for the last few seasons, struggling Chmapionship club and then league 1 club, I'd warrant that the academy is over-achieving in terms of players. I also think that the original concept of the academy providing a steady stream of players for the 1st team was made with every expectation of the club being a top Championship/PL team and thus able to attract better young talent to the academy.

But the other way of looking at it is to say that when it was set up, we were a top half second tier club and a measure of success would have been to produce a stream of players at least competent at that level. The fact that it has produced only one such player every couple of years is probably a contributory factor in us now being a third tier club.

 

[Bergen Blade]

As the biggest club in South Yorkshire I think we have a responsibility to give young players in the region the best possible facilities to develop. Germany's current success (clubs and national team) is due to their long term focus on youth development.

I'd like England's national team to be more than an embarrassment and think it would be nice if there weren't just a selection of stinking rich foreigners in the Premiership teams, including ours next time we get there. This means clubs have to do their bit.

 

[SouthEssexBlade]

But the other way of looking at it is to say that when it was set up, we were a top half second tier club and a measure of success would have been to produce a stream of players at least competent at that level. The fact that it has produced only one such player every couple of years is probably a contributory factor in us now being a third tier club.

Heavy expectations of any academy. Take a look at the graduates of Man Utd's (or Chelsea and Man City for that) academy over the last 4 years and see how many are playing CL football, comparable to our expectation as you outlined!

 

[Highbury_Blade]

As a matter of interest where is this league table of Academy rankings?

 

[Darren]

Heavy expectations of any academy. Take a look at the graduates of Man Utd's (or Chelsea and Man City for that) academy over the last 4 years and see how many are playing CL football, comparable to our expectation as you outlined!

Given that clubs like that can basically sign any player they want, I would suggest it is rather less important for them to develop their own talent. For a club like us it seems a sensible strategy to do this in order to (a) get good players to play for us and (b) mak money by selling them on. I believe that was the strategy consciously adopted when the academy was founded. On that basis, it seems to me the strategy has comprehensively failed. The third division and only 5 top two tier standard players must show that.

 

[Bladesway]

Back to your original argument of a stream of talent playing in the first team. Add your 7 to the current team and how do you rate our chances this season?

But that's the point, they haven't all come along at once and when they have we have sold them pronto. How many first team games do our academy players have with SUFC? I am happy with Harry and the way he is developing and playing in the first team but when you look, Naughton and Walker, we couldn't get shot quickly enough. Slew was another one. I know you can't blame the academy directly for that but there aren't enough of quality coming through often enough.

 

[Darren]

It would be an interesting survey for anyone with the time and inclination to trawl through the first team squads of all the PL clubs and see where the English players started their careers. We have 4 players in the PL who started their careers at the Lane. We would then know if this was a good or bad figure.

 

[Highbury_Blade]

It would be an interesting survey for anyone with the time and inclination to trawl through the first team squads of all the PL clubs and see where the English players started their careers. We have 4 players in the PL who started their careers at the Lane. We would then know if this was a good or bad figure.

Not that many English players in the premier league so it wouldn't take too long...

 

[alcoblade]

As the biggest club in South Yorkshire I think we have a responsibility to give young players in the region the best possible facilities to develop. Germany's current success (clubs and national team) is due to their long term focus on youth development.

I'd like England's national team to be more than an embarrassment and think it would be nice if there weren't just a selection of stinking rich foreigners in the Premiership teams, including ours next time we get there. This means clubs have to do their bit.

It's a lovely sentiment, but I have no inclination for the club to be nurturing South Yorkshire talent out of obligation. Just as that talent has no obligation to us the second a better offer comes up (Kyles, for example).

And it's a factor in why English football is so shite at the international level, but I don't want my club paying into that system at its' own cost. And, yes, I'm part of the problem, I accept.

UTB

 

[SouthEssexBlade]

It's a lovely sentiment, but I have no inclination for the club to be nurturing South Yorkshire talent out of obligation. Just as that talent has no obligation to us the second a better offer comes up (Kyles, for example).

And it's a factor in why English football is so shite at the international level, but I don't want my club paying into that system at its' own cost. And, yes, I'm part of the problem, I accept.

UTB

Doesn't seem to have hampered the German league and clubs in any way. In fact if you look at it, remarkably little has changed in terms of the order of teams. No team seems to have dropped way below it's natural level and nobody seems to be massively achieving.

 

[SouthEssexBlade]

But that's the point, they haven't all come along at once and when they have we have sold them pronto. How many first team games do our academy players have with SUFC? I am happy with Harry and the way he is developing and playing in the first team but when you look, Naughton and Walker, we couldn't get shot quickly enough. Slew was another one. I know you can't blame the academy directly for that but there aren't enough of quality coming through often enough.

But they never do come along all at once. Apart from Man Utd and that group of Beckham, Scholes, Nevilles et al almost all academy successes come in odds and sods. At our level the best will get moved on. Previously we have done it too quickly and too cheaply. The Harry situation suggests that this is not now the case. Fingers crossed it continues!

 

[raul]

Doesn't seem to have hampered the German league and clubs in any way. In fact if you look at it, remarkably little has changed in terms of the order of teams. No team seems to have dropped way below it's natural level and nobody seems to be massively achieving.

I can think of one team very much below their natural level. We could supply an entire international squad of players, but it means diddly if the club who nuture them remain a third tier club.

 

[Darren]

But they never do come along all at once. Apart from Man Utd and that group of Beckham, Scholes, Nevilles et al almost all academy successes come in odds and sods. At our level the best will get moved on. Previously we have done it too quickly and too cheaply. The Harry situation suggests that this is not now the case. Fingers crossed it continues!

We got relegated from the PL 7 years ago. Since then, only 3 players have come through the academy - Walker, Naughton and Lowton - who were good enough for the top two tiers*

A problem?

* Maguire may be a 4th. Let's see.

 

[Grecian2000]

Not that many English players in the premier league so it wouldn't take too long...

OK. In 5 minutes I can do Man Utd (thanks to Soccerbase)

10 English first teamers

Evans, Cleverley, Wellbeck (Man Utd)
Jones. Blackburn
Shaw. Southampton
Smalling. Fulham
Carrick. West Ham
Young. Watford
Zaha. Palace.
Rooney. Everton.

So, with the best academy known to man, they can come up with 30% of their ENGLISH players, which is less than half their squad.

Although there are a couple of others that regularly go out on loan and haven't made the breakthrough at this level yet!

PS. Add Darren Fletcher - Mau Utd trainee but Scottish so missed him!

 

[SouthEssexBlade]

I can think of one team very much below their natural level. We could supply an entire international squad of players, but it means diddly if the club who nuture them remain a third tier club.

Ah, I assume you refer to Dresden? Peculiar circumstances there though. You could argue they have struggled since reunification

 

[SouthEssexBlade]

We got relegated from the PL 7 years ago. Since then, only 3 players have come through the academy - Walker, Naughton and Lowton - who were good enough for the top two tiers*

A problem?

* Maguire may be a 4th. Let's see.

Quinn? Sharp?

 

[Darren]

OK. In 5 minutes I can do Man Utd (thanks to Soccerbase)

10 English first teamers

Evans, Cleverley, Wellbeck (Man Utd)
Jones. Blackburn
Shaw. Southampton
Smalling. Fulham
Carrick. West Ham
Young. Watford
Zaha. Palace.
Rooney. Everton.

So, with the best academy known to man, they can come up with 30% of their ENGLISH players, which is less than half their squad.

Although there are a couple of others that regularly go out on loan and haven't made the breakthrough at this level yet!

PS. Add Darren Fletcher - Mau Utd trainee but Scottish so missed him!

How many Man Utd academy graduates are playing for other teams in the top two tiers? That's what I was looking for?

 

[Darren]

Quinn? Sharp?

He was a first team player before we got relegated. So, only 3 have come through since relegation from the PL.

Ditto Sharp. Three players being good enough for the top 44 teams in the country in 7 years is pretty piss poor.

 

[CopenhagenBlade]

I think that it is very hard to produce players that are ready to go directly from the Academy to the Premier League...that is a huge gap, mostly due to the physical side of things. Players normally would have to start by dropping down to the Championship or 1st division to gain experience and bulk up. Barkley being an example at Everton, though what experience he gained from the Piggies I have no idea....probably motivation never to play at that level again. Sturridge started at Man City, went to Chelsea, loaned out to Bolton before making it at Liverpool
The ones that succeed are the huge talents that everyone can see from a very young age, Gerrard, Rooney Scholes etc

 

[SouthEssexBlade]

He was a first team player before we got relegated. So, only 3 have come through since relegation from the PL.

Ditto Sharp. Three players being good enough for the top 44 teams in the country in 7 years is pretty piss poor.

It's all relative. A like-for-like comparison in that time, with a club floating between Championship and Division 1 gives more persective. Like, er, Wednesday for instance?

 

[Darren]

It's all relative. A like-for-like comparison in that time, with a club floating between Championship and Division 1 gives more persective. Like, er, Wednesday for instance?

I don't know what Wednesday record is like.

There are many English players playing in the top two divisions. They must have come from somewhere. We would need someone to do a proper survey, but I would be very surprised if United's record is not poor compared with clubs of comparable size and recent records (Forest? Leeds? Derby? Leicester? Norwich? Southampton?)

 

[Darren]

If we assume, at a conservative estimate, that each of the 44 top 2 tier teams has 10 English playes, that's 440 players. If we also assume they are sourced from all 92 league clubs, you would expect an average of about 5 per club.

That's obviously just one season. I don't know how many new players break through each season, but lets assume a quarter of that 440 figure, so 110 or just over 1 per club per season.

So, on the basis of these back of a fag packet calculations, you would expect 5 United Academy graduates to be currently playing in the top two tiers and for there to have been a new one over each of he last 7 seasons. So we should. on avaerage, have had 12 breaking through over the last 7 years.

That's an average figure. Obviously Man Utd, will have more coming through and Rochdale less. I would expect United to be above average. Certainly in the top third, given support and resources.

I would say 15 players coming through in the past 7 years good enough for the top two tiers would be a reasonable return for the Academy. 3 is, as I say, piss poor.

 

[SouthEssexBlade]

I don't know what Wednesday record is like.

There are many English players playing in the top two divisions. They must have come from somewhere. We would need someone to do a proper survey, but I would be very surprised if United's record is not poor compared with clubs of comparable size and recent records (Forest? Leeds? Derby? Leicester? Norwich? Southampton?)

Nobody, including Man Utd, compares to Southampton in terms of high quality players from the academy (I had a vested interest in this, my uncle retired last year from running their centre in Devon). They have a fantastic set-up, not just the academy facility but the network looking for talent to feed that academy.

As for the rest, I've no real idea. Leeds had a great system a few years ago, but that's gone tits up. Derby is great, thanks mainly to Clough! Forest, not sure. Leicester, same as Forest. Norwich did have a good academy, but downscaled it a bit when they got into the PL.

 

[Darren]

Nobody, including Man Utd, compares to Southampton in terms of high quality players from the academy (I had a vested interest in this, my uncle retired last year from running their centre in Devon). They have a fantastic set-up, not just the academy facility but the network looking for talent to feed that academy.

As for the rest, I've no real idea. Leeds had a great system a few years ago, but that's gone tits up. Derby is great, thanks mainly to Clough! Forest, not sure. Leicester, same as Forest. Norwich did have a good academy, but downscaled it a bit when they got into the PL.

Doesn't that kind of prove my point? United's peers in the football world seem to do much better at this academy lark.

I don't know why this is, but it seems it needs looking at...

 

[SouthEssexBlade]

If we assume, at a conservative estimate, that each of the 44 top 2 tier teams has 10 English playes, that's 440 players. If we also assume they are sourced from all 92 league clubs, you would expect an average of about 5 per club.

That's obviously just one season. I don't know how many new players break through each season, but lets assume a quarter of that 440 figure, so 110 or just over 1 per club per season.

So, on the basis of these back of a fag packet calculations, you would expect 5 United Academy graduates to be currently playing in the top two tiers and for there to have been a new one over each of he last 7 seasons. So we should. on avaerage, have had 12 breaking through over the last 7 years.

That's an average figure. Obviously Man Utd, will have more coming through and Rochdale less. I would expect United to be above average. Certainly in the top third, given support and resources.

I would say 15 players coming through in the past 7 years good enough for the top two tiers would be a reasonable return for the Academy. 3 is, as I say, piss poor.

Last season there were 66 regular (more than 10 games) English players in the PL, or 3.6 per club.

 

[SouthEssexBlade]

Doesn't that kind of prove my point? United's peers in the football world seem to do much better at this academy lark.

I don't know why this is, but it seems it needs looking at...

Over the last 7 years I'd say they've all achieved far above us. Not saying that makes them bigger clubs than us, but they have played at a higher level than us for most of that time. It has an impact on who you attract, whether they are 10 or 30.

 

[Darren]

Over the last 7 years I'd say they've all achieved far above us. Not saying that makes them bigger clubs than us, but they have played at a higher level than us for most of that time. It has an impact on who you attract, whether they are 10 or 30.

All of the clubs I mentioned except Derby have had spells in the 3rd Division. From 2007-10 we were always a potential PL club.

 

[SouthEssexBlade]

All of the clubs I mentioned except Derby have had spells in the 3rd Division. From 2007-10 we were always a potential PL club.

We never got there, 3 of that lot did. Big money, big pulling power! Especially as we were nose-diving down the Championship into L1 at the time. If you're a 12yr old kid with potential, do you sign for plunging SUFC or newly PL Norwich?

 

[Darren]

We never got there, 3 of that lot did. Big money, big pulling power! Especially as we were nose-diving down the Championship into L1 at the time. If you're a 12yr old kid with potential, do you sign for plunging SUFC or newly PL Norwich?

In 2009 you would have signed for championship play off finalists SUFC rather than relegated to the the third tier Norwich.