Bournmouth / Brentford

[fifty shades of blade]

"Oh waaa waaaa waaaa it's not fair, we are bigger then them, they're just cheating'...i mean, sounds like entitled pig fans, pathetic.

 

[jt64]

How do they do it, tiny income from fans, sell the best players every year & lose managers to bigger clubs but still manage to stay in the premier league.

a) Competent enough football operations to get into and stay in the PL
b) In the PL match day income from the regular fan is for all intents and purposes irrelevant

 

[diplomat]

Bournemouth broke pretty much every FFP rule getting up there in the first place and faced no consequences. Felt like the EFL couldn't be arsed to prove it at the time when the rules were a little looser.

I think they were found to have broken the rules getting out of league one and the championship and only got fined about £5m from memory after reaching the prem and banking £100m. Makes the ‘little old Bournemouth’ story a bit less romantic knowing an oligarch was financially doping them.

 

[LBA_Blade]

I think they were found to have broken the rules getting out of league one and the championship and only got fined about £5m from memory after reaching the prem and banking £100m. Makes the ‘little old Bournemouth’ story a bit less romantic knowing an oligarch was financially doping them.

To be fair wasn’t the first, although they had a drop but came straight back up Fulham aren’t exactly a hugely backed side, when you read their forums they are complaining about match day ticket prices of £100+ but with constant away fans in the home end. They have never won a major trophy in their history, got close under Woy in the UEFA Cup final but nothing else.

 

[CarlMcBlade]

Brentford and Bournemouth would maybe look at us as a bit of a tin pot club. For kids growing up around the world watching Premier league football…Brentford, Bournemouth and also Fulham have become a top flight staple now…Sad but true.

 

[Loco Blade]

How do they do it, tiny income from fans, sell the best players every year & lose managers to bigger clubs but still manage to stay in the premier league.

Results so far today, Bournemouth currently leading at Newcastle after selling their best player to City & Brentford leading 0:2 at the biggest club in the world.

Recruitment with a capital R mate . We are shite at it

 

[Greasy Chap Butty]

Still adds up or else you wouldn't use clubs like Fulham charging 100 a ticket

It clearly adds up and is useful few million extra.
But not a big contribution in terms of FFP calcs.

If we sell 30k season tickets at £450 , that's £13.5 million. A huge chunk of money. But only 10% ish of what Sky money is.
Hence the lower Brentford / Bournemouth crowds don't have a proportional impact.

 

[joe casey]

So we were going to.use the same system as Brighton Brentford and Liverpool but everyone freaked out about AI signings

Sounds like we really missed out there
Shame we never got. To see any of these signings in action they sound fantastic

Because what many people seem to be unable to grasp is that its only successful if the data is used alongside knowledge/the eye test etc etc.
The data probably did show that Matos was high in tackles per 90etc (no idea if this is true just assuming) - but anyone with an ounce of football knowledge would have seen he's nowhere near good enough to be a replacement for Souza.

Brighton pick plenty of obscure players out, they also sign key players like Danny Welbeck, signed because their people can see what he can bring to the team having actual experience of the player and what it takes to be successful in the Premier League.

United seemed to essentially just rely on the data and nothing else...right until the end, where they mainly signed a load of lads who were half decent players 4 or 5 years ago.

 

[SwitchBLADE Smiles]

And yet we've had 3 seasons there in recent times and seem skinter each time we're there.

Because we haven’t really invested in the analytics side of it in the same way. We used the premier league money to make big signings like McBurnie, Brewster and Mousset. 0 of those signings were likely to move on to make any kind of material profits. Berge is the only exception, but we contrived to actually not make anything on him. Ironically, Fulham will likely realise that profit on him now.

The Brentford example is an excellent one as they signed the likes of Maupay for peanuts, had a huge impact on them actually reaching the premier league, THEN flogged him for multi-millions. The only similar signing we’ve had in recent times that cuts from this mould was Ndiaye.

We need a shake up of the recruitment strategy if we want to really break into the premier league, but I can’t see that coming any time soon.

 

[skegblade]

The Premier league is a joke with those 2 in it, how do Bournemouth with 10,000 supporters meet sustainability rules?
Makes a mockery of the so called 'Best league in the world'
Shit tin pot league 2 clubs I hate them

How mant we gwt saturday onlt way of prolonging( not getting p/o) the season and cw fecked it

 

[LurkerBlade]

If you look into it you would see that Brentford/Bournemouth/Brighton lose money on lots of players and then have a Caicedo.

I'm not saying we should continue using AI like we have by any means but for every Anel/Berge we will have Ukaki and Caceres.

 

[N20 Blade]

If you look into it you would see that Brentford/Bournemouth/Brighton lose money on lots of players and then have a Caicedo.

I'm not saying we should continue using AI like we have by any means but for every Anel/Berge we will have Ukaki and Caceres.

The problem we have created recently, is not maximising the contracts of the best players, so when they do leave, we make big money. Berge and Ndiaye absolute PL class that should have made us really serious money, but didn't. Fulham and Everton, could cash in big style if they manage it better than us. Same with Anel and Souza to lesser extents, seems they left on the cheap despite their exits being inevitable. I appreciate it's Catch 22, you can only play hard ball when you're an established PL club, and to do that you need to retain the best players. It's just frustrating that after 3 PL seasons and some very talented players, we're going to be financially vulnerable at the end of the season.

Then the cycle starts again, selling the better players for less than we should.

 

[utd4ever]

And yet we've had 3 seasons there in recent times and seem skinter each time we're there.

The big difference is the players they recruited. Look at Sunderland. They pulled a masterstroke signing Granit Xaka.

Our first season under Wilder we had a great defence and spine to the team.

Eventually after signing poor players and losing the great JOC to injury we succumbed to relegation.

Bournemouth and Brentford just seemed to have carried on prem worthy players.
Still if they keep losing their best and get the next bit of recruitment wrong they will start to struggle.

 

[Kenilworth]

They (alongside Brighton) were amongst the first teams in the country outside of the Premier League to employ advanced sports analytics to make data driven transfers.

It started in baseball (aka "Moneyball" - as in the Brad Pitt film) - now all US sports use it, and all professional US sport teams have analytic departments.

Liverpool were the first to do this in the UK. Ian Graham, who built their analytics department wrote a book "How to win the Premier League" (a good read if you're into this kind of thing). Bournemouth, Brighton, Brentford are mentioned several times - they became aware that these teams were using the same methods because they'd often be looking at a low profile/high value (in analytic terms) player and one of those teams would suddenly sign them ahead of Liverpool making an offer.

This is the system we were going to implement, before everyone shat the bed and started ranting about "AI signing players".

It was nothing like the shite Bord system of random picks. Theirs is solid data and analysis by humans and they put a shed load of money into it. Ours was a corner shop to Tesco difference.

 

[Kenilworth]

Who do you mean by "they", Brighton or Brentford?
Either way, it doesn't matter.
For Brighton, it was Tony Bloom whom personally bankrolled the entire development. As for "the council", the site traverses two local Councils, Brighton and Lewes, and while Brighton were supportive, Lewes were dead set against it, refusing planning permission and filing appeals, which seriously delayed the project. In the end it had to go to the Secretary of State to overturn their objections.
As for Brentford, the cost of the development was funded by the sale of Griffin Park for housing, plus owner Matthew Benham underwriting just under £100m to get developers on board. If the associated housing development on the GTech site makes top money for the developers who actually built it, then Benham may get some, even all, of his money back, but it's not guaranteed. In any case, the developers will get their cut of any profits first.
Meanwhile, Hounslow Council didn't put any money into it, none. In fact they were initially obstructive, until Brentford fans started putting up single-issue candidates in the local council elections, attracting enough votes to scare the Council into a u-turn and supporting it, granting planning permission etc. Still no money, though.

Any bids?

 

[MTBlade]

Brentford had a run of player that included Ollie Watkins, Muapay, Benrahma, Konsa, Ivan Toney, Wissa - all later sold on for big money and reinvested into the system.

Brighton have brought and sold on Caicedo, Ben White, Macallister, Cucurella, Bissouma, Trosssard, Pedro.

If you're buying players for £2 million and selling them on for £60 million, you can afford the odd dud.

This is something I have been thinking about, reading this and the S6 takeover thread.

There will be loads on here that have a lot better knowledge than I do, but how many players over say the last 10 years have we bought and then sold at a profit (i guess you could also look at the academy re selling on).

I have an idea of a couple (Osula, Souza), but i'm not sure how many players we have developed and made money on.

I guess another question for the CW conversation is- how many players has CW bought in or brought up through the system, developed and sold for a profit?

I remember this was the Brentford model for a few years when they were just missing out on promotion.

Do we have the patience/understanding to carry out the Brentford model?

Looking at things, I'm not sure if we can financially manage for the first couple of years, until the players start to be sold on.

Anyway, thats my waffle done

 

[ChefYouKnighted1889]

This is something I have been thinking about, reading this and the S6 takeover thread.

There will be loads on here that have a lot better knowledge than I do, but how many players over say the last 10 years have we bought and then sold at a profit (i guess you could also look at the academy re selling on).

I have an idea of a couple (Osula, Souza), but i'm not sure how many players we have developed and made money on.

I guess another question for the CW conversation is- how many players has CW bought in or brought up through the system, developed and sold for a profit?

I remember this was the Brentford model for a few years when they were just missing out on promotion.

Do we have the patience/understanding to carry out the Brentford model?

Looking at things, I'm not sure if we can financially manage for the first couple of years, until the players start to be sold on.

Anyway, thats my waffle done

Ndiaye

 

[PaulPeschBlade]

They do it by having the best footballing structure manager , DOF , Scouting system

It doesn’t matter if there manager or best players get poached as they just slot in the next one


It’s a structure we attempted in the summer

 

[PaulPeschBlade]

The Premier league is a joke with those 2 in it, how do Bournemouth with 10,000 supporters meet sustainability rules?
Makes a mockery of the so called 'Best league in the world'
Shit tin pot league 2 clubs I hate them

Why is it a joke ?

I think it’s great the prem has never been so competitive there is about 10 points between champions league in 5th and Leeds who were certs to go down 6 weeks ago

 

[Blacksea]

They do it by having the best footballing structure manager , DOF , Scouting system

It doesn’t matter if there manager or best players get poached as they just slot in the next one


It’s a structure we attempted in the summer

We literally had Andrews on the books at the end of last season,so the board showed in yet another way we are so far behind the Brentford model by letting him walk away,sacking Wilder and appointed Selles when we could at least have had a foot on the ladder

 

[PaulPeschBlade]

We literally had Andrews on the books at the end of last season,so the board showed in yet another way we are so far behind the Brentford model by letting him walk away,sacking Wilder and appointed Selles when we could at least have had a foot on the ladder

If we would have appointed Andrews as manager he would have failed miserably


You need the structure around a manager

We tried that with Selles he had zero structure and give two league one loan signings


Selles is a good manager/coach

 

[Blacksea]

If we would have appointed Andrews as manager he would have failed miserably


You need the structure around a manager

We tried that with Selles he had zero structure and give two league one loan signings


Selles is a good manager/coach

That's true,but who's going to put that structure in place?
Just checked the dates again and he left us at the season before last,not the end of last season,so he couldn't have made the frame as our manager anyway.

 

[Geordie Blade]

Still if they keep losing their best and get the next bit of recruitment wrong they will start to struggle.

That's exactly the concern for the smaller teams punching above their weight. It's a really fun ride, but it isn't sustainable in the long-term. One bad mistake in appointing the wrong manager or a bad transfer window, and those clubs will be on a spiral back to the lower leagues. See Blackpool, Oldham, Barnsley, Swindon, Bradford, Huddersfield, Reading, Luton. They've all had spells where they looked like they'd cracked it and made it with the big boys. Brentford, Bournemouth and Brighton will go the same way.

If, say, Manchester United had a terrible season and got relegated, they'd find a way to get back up within a few years at the most. See Man City, Villa, Sunderland, Newcastle and (spit) Leeds. They've all messed up, but had long-term resilience to it. Wednesday fans will say the same. It's possible (even probably) that they'll eventually get back to the top flight, but they're probably more at risk than the teams I've listed above, because they've been away for so long and don't have the infrastructure foundations anymore.

Us? We're somewhere in between. Our natural position in the latter is somewhere between 20th and 25th. We'll generally regress to that position either from above or below - neither will last for too long. In the last 50 years, we've slightly skewed the wrong way (12 seasons in D3/D4 vs 8 in the top flight), but 30 seasons in D2 shows that we don't tend to stray away for too long. We can have some brilliant times (Bassett, Wilder) or some terrible times (too many managers to list), but they won't have any long-term effects on us. For Bournemouth, Brentford and Brighton, the tension under the surface must be quite hard to cope with.

 

[DifferentClass]

 

[MTBlade]

Ndiaye

Of course .

Fancy forgetting him.

 

[Balham]

Because what many people seem to be unable to grasp is that its only successful if the data is used alongside knowledge/the eye test etc etc.
The data probably did show that Matos was high in tackles per 90etc (no idea if this is true just assuming) - but anyone with an ounce of football knowledge would have seen he's nowhere near good enough to be a replacement for Souza.

Brighton pick plenty of obscure players out, they also sign key players like Danny Welbeck, signed because their people can see what he can bring to the team having actual experience of the player and what it takes to be successful in the Premier League.

United seemed to essentially just rely on the data and nothing else...right until the end, where they mainly signed a load of lads who were half decent players 4 or 5 years ago.

At the risk of going back over old ground, in the summer of 2020 we had just finished in 9th while Brighton had struggled to 16th. Danny Welbeck would have been an ideal signing for us on a free but instead we decided to put all our eggs and more in a Rhian Brewster shaped basket. The rest is history.

 

[Jon B]

The Premier league is a joke with those 2 in it, how do Bournemouth with 10,000 supporters meet sustainability rules?
Makes a mockery of the so called 'Best league in the world'
Shit tin pot league 2 clubs I hate them

Results on the field are what determines that Bournemouth and Brentford are Premier League clubs.

Tin pot clubs can't get the results.

 

[joe casey]

At the risk of going back over old ground, in the summer of 2020 we had just finished in 9th while Brighton had struggled to 16th. Danny Welbeck would have been an ideal signing for us on a free but instead we decided to put all our eggs and more in a Rhian Brewster shaped basket. The rest is history.

It's an interesting point because you'd think Welbeck would've been exactly the type Wilder would be after.

 

[Deleted member 25842]

It was nothing like the shite Bord system of random picks. Theirs is solid data and analysis by humans and they put a shed load of money into it. Ours was a corner shop to Tesco difference.

Do you have more details about this? I'd just assumed they were trying to do the same thing.

 

[Upthe8lades]

It’s been discussed in previous threads, but how much does geographical location influence a player’s desire to play or stay? Teams in London have a stronger pull for young players and their families compared to the deindustrial landscape of Sheffield - yes, the Peak District is nearby, but is that the lifestyle young players seek? As London grows and absorbs more teams, will there be an even greater north–south divide, with fewer northern teams represented in the top flight?

There are, however, anomalies: Sunderland, Newcastle, Nottingham, Leeds, and the Manchester and Liverpool teams. But is this down to their history and identity as cities and clubs? Does Sheffield’s recent lack of footballing achievement, combined with the city’s wider underperformance, present a significant challenge in attracting and retaining players or investment? Sheffield performs worse than most cities not only in football, but also in economic investment, unemployment and school performance - even a simple Google image search fails to sell the city to likely players or investors.