Is there anyone who thinks we shouldn't make the change yet?

[Edgar Allan Poo]

Against teams we should have been beating.

Going down with just a -46 goal difference and scoring 0.4 goals per game is beneath this playing squad, surely?

No one would dispute we are not quite there yet. If after 10 games we are still bottom I will be calling for his head too.

 

[AnstonBlade1]

Sacking any manager after 4 games isn’t serious, it’s complete over reaction

But football is what it is, sometimes there is no choice to change because you don’t get the time

And this fan base is at a point where they aren’t willing to give the time

Selles might go on and lose next 10, he might win one in 5 games time and start turning it around so we stay up and then next season

But he isn’t going to get that time

How long do you give it though? What if you give it 10 and we lose 10?
Then it’s a matter of staying up.

 

[Jan Age]

4 games isn't enough. Give the kid time. A couple of wins and everything changes. We could have been 3 up on Bristol

Yes but after this he went completely away from that style of football

He roasted the players in front of him if the fans

He’s lost the dressing room and he’s a weak leader …

Admit the mistake make the change move on

 

[Brownieblade]

How long do you give it though? What if you give it 10 and we lose 10?
Then it’s a matter of staying up.

I agree it puts you in a predicament to say the least but it still doesn’t remove the fact that 4 games into a 46 season is ludicrous

 

[Sheffsteel]

4 games isn't enough. Give the kid time. A couple of wins and everything changes. We could have been 3 up on Bristol

I like to think of myself as being one of the more reasonable positive types.

So I do agree….that 4 games is far too small a sample to judge anyone.
Also agree the 1st half at home to Bristol City was actually entertaining….on another day we’re 2-1 up at half time…then it’s a different game.

However I try to look behind the results and judge performances….look for signs of improvement and try to find valid excuses for the manager.
The problem is….our performances have been worse than our results….with no sign of improvement…in fact we seem to be getting worse.

My big problem is….everyone makes mistakes….fair enough
But I don’t see any sign that Selles is reviewing each match, learning from mistakes and evolving his tactics/ formations.
We’re not scoring goals but the worrying part is we’re struggling to even create chances
Also sometimes there are massive spaces at the back….as though the players don’t know the formation.
Normally it would be madness to sack anyone after 4 matches but if we can find a decent replacement then I’m not against a change.

Does anyone know the nature of Wilders current context?
Instead of sacking him and negotiating a final payment to terminate his contract.
Have we kept Wilder as a current employee and told him to stay at home whilst he collects his monthly salary (known as gardening leave).
If this is the case…..then can’t we simply ask him to return to his duties as per his current contract….at no extra cost and put Selles on gardening leave?

 

[Addison]

To those saying give Selles longer I'd encourage them to read Deadbats report. The extracts below articulate it better than I could. Last week I thought he had until after the International Break. After yesterday I hope T Blades assertion that RB has just the Ipswich match is accurate.

Nothing will improve despite some optimists saying it could. He's lost the players, he's lost the fans who chanted sacked in the morning to his face after the game. When that happens there is only one decision to be made. As for its too early to sack a manager. It isn't. When someone is so completely out of their depth, intransigent, refusing to change and has lost the support of staff and the paying customers effective organisations get rid immediately as it affects the brand.

COH don't have a decision to make its been made for them by all of the above. Any further delay beyond Ipswich and it will be toxic at the Charlton game. I'm sure the Directors don't want a repeat of the Millwall post match confrontations. Its a complete mess and needs to be addressed now.

"We did not press or tackle and sat off and this pressing/high tempo play is nowhere to be seen. We are so passive without the ball and the opposition have time and space to do what they want. When on the ball there were major issues too. Firstly, noone moved at all. The whole team were stationery, even in open play or when it was dead. I was shocked that they all just stood there. I was screaming for someone to move. No one did."

"He should have surrounded himself with some experienced coaches too but it’s all been too much for him and his team and like David Weir he is woefully out of his depth. He can’t get his messages across, we are not showing anything that makes me think he knows what he is doing and we are getting worse each week."

"Showed a lot of bottle to be fair as large number were singing sacked in the morning right at him. He just stood there for what seemed like an age. It was a bit uncomfortable and I wanted him to just go to be fair as the fans had made their point. He eventually turned round and walked off. I hated the fact non of the players went with him. He shook Hamer’s hand but then as he left, there was noone with him. Where were his staff? He just left"

 

[djbaldken]

If we beat Ipswich and Charlton the fan base will love him. Guaranteed.

Which is a bit like me saying if I was 40 years younger ,fit, with an athlete's body I could shag Scarlet Johanson and Margot Robbie.

 

[djbaldken]

Wilder lost 4 of his first 5 and he turned it around (I know it’s been said a million times before but it’s true).

When Wilder came in we were in League one and going nowhere. He totally changed things round.
When he left we'd almost made it to the so called promised land. Selles came in to a team that was going on an upwards direction. Now it's in freefall.

2nd half v Millwall. We battered them.

Either you were on magic mushroom s watching the Millwall game or I was!
We've BEEN battered in our last five outings.

 

[LBA_Blade]

Change?

He had pre-season just like all the other clubs who have managed to form competent, competitive squads in that time.

Even the pigs have managed to scrape together some dignity with their performances after their shit-show pre-season.

Who else?

As you say, that’s not a reason not to do it and I’d suggest the names you mention are not out of the picture. They are not PL managers currently and no prospect of that happening.
There are many suggests as to who else in these boards, including of course Chris Wilder.

Ings, Tanganga and Godfrey might also think the manager is totally wrong in his approach and welcome change.

I’ve been mostly supportive of Sellés but simply can’t see a plan on the pitch and the his words off it don’t match the reality on it.

I think he’ll get a few games and I hope he can change ‘the dynamics around’, he certainly has better players at the back now to at least stem the tide but we’re making zero chances in most games.

Not a single shot in target.

Pre-season opponents not picked by him, given a squad and 3 of the spine of that pre-season regulars were sold. Given 7 weeks of a pre-season from appointment to 1st game, a lot of the other teams in the division were secured from relegation months ago and have had time to evaluate their squads. We had 8 shots yesterday, not one on target isn’t down to the manager. Next week and then the international break has come at a good time to reset. The next time to review is in the October international break

 

[LBA_Blade]

When Wilder came in we were in League one and going nowhere. He totally changed things round.
When he left we'd almost made it to the so called promised land. Selles came in to a team that was going on an upwards direction. Now it's in freefall.

Either you were on magic mushroom s watching the Millwall game or I was!
We've BEEN battered in our last five outings.

Agreed he did after his very slow start, however he had practice in the lower divisions 1st and done well at Northampton in turning them around. If he wasn’t a blade I don’t think he would have come to us as wouldn’t have been on our radar. Wilder 1.0 was a pleasure to watch with players that wanted to win, but we still had boyhood hero’s and when you have a striker that wants to be in the kop as much as score in front of it, it always helps.

 

[Sportbilly /Detroit Blade]

Sacking any manager after 4 games isn’t serious, it’s complete over reaction

But football is what it is, sometimes there is no choice to change because you don’t get the time

And this fan base is at a point where they aren’t willing to give the time

Selles might go on and lose next 10, he might win one in 5 games time and start turning it around so we stay up and then next season

But he isn’t going to get that time

I said to my brother before the season started that Selles would get even less time / less leniency than normal.

Last season we didn't achieve our objective of promotion, but amassed 90+ points. It was obvious that if we had a spluttering start that it wouldn't take long for fans to turn on him, especially as many were / are still pro Wilder.

I wasn't enthused by his appointment, so I'd not lose any sleep if he was fired today, but we'd be setting a bar where a new manager only has a few games and they're out of its not all rainbows and sunshine.

I know it's a big if, but if another manager comes in and starts badly do we bullet them after 4 games too?

 

[GrunkyPeep]

Not sure if anyone else has made the point because im lazy and havent read the thread but I wouldn't sack him yet.

The board should be focused on players right now and any manager can't really have an impact over the next 36 hours so I'd leave him where he is and sack him on Tuesday once the squad is finalised.

 

[BobbyDavison'sDebut]

I’m torn on this one. On one hand is 4 (or 5 including the cup game) enough to judge a new manager and on the other if we give him 10 games and we’re still in the same position then we can kiss goodbye to any chance of promotion. Given this is our last season of parachute payments this would be catastrophic for our club. Budgets will be slashed and this will be reflected in the playing squad. The domino effect could see us stuck in this division for the foreseeable future or drop down the leagues.

In the games so far this season the players just don’t seem to know what the plan is and there doesn’t seem to be anything to suggest the manager knows what to do if things aren’t happening on the pitch. It’s not working and there are no visible green shoots to grasp onto.

 

[I should coco]

No one would dispute we are not quite there yet.

'Not quite'? As in a million miles away.

Congratulations for the most optimistic/deluded post of the weekend.

 

[dc_blade]

Until yesterday I would've said it's crazy to sack a manager at this stage. In fact I was staying away from the forum and other Blades social media because I was annoyed by how quickly people had turned on Selles.

But after yesterday I think it might be time to cut our losses and get rid. My jaw dropped when I saw the teamsheet--Peck on his own at the base of midfield again. It's just basic stuff. We look like we might never score a goal again. Since Bristol City I've struggled to see what he's trying to do. We don't press high, we don't sit in and play on the break, we don't have any real pattern of play. I can't see what the plan is to progress the ball.

The biggest thing though is that he's lost the players and lost the fans. Even a top coach would struggle to turn things around now.

 

[Rochdaleblade]

Regardless of who the manager is there is no excuse for the spineless performance we are getting from half the players. As wilder himself would have said some effort and backbone should be a given.

Having watched Tanganga yesterday and to some extent even Ings who have been in the building 5 minutes, as an existing player I would have been frankly embarrassed by the utter effortless dross I was serving up (the problem is that I'm not sure some of them are embarrassed...it's somebody elses problem).

The clue is in the word 'professional' footballer. Good players don't go hiding.

I suspect most fans can forgive being outclassed by a better team, however I suspect many fans will have a bigger problem with effort.

I completely agree that the players should be embarrassed by their "efforts". I can only assume that some of them are actively trying to get him sacked, or are hoping to get a move elsewhere. They don't appear to be doing the basics of moving into space when we have possession and get back when the opposition have possession. However, Selles continues to pick the same players who seem determined to throw him under the bus. His starting line up was ridiculously lightweight in midfield and had two wingers who are reluctant to get back. I would back Selles if he dropped some of the lazy fuckers, or even let them go. At this point shithousing a nil nil would be a start. Selles seems to be seeing what we are seeing, if you watch him on the touchline or listen to his interviews, but he doesn't appear to be able (or willing) to do anything about it. Wilder got lucky when we had the likes of Baldock, JOC, Basham etc who would fire volleys at people failing to do their job. At present only Tanganga seems to do this. The only reason I can see for keeping Selles, is if we are planning to bring in some more players in in the window. It seems clear enough to me that for whatever reason, the players (or a majority certainly) are not playing for him. The choice is either get rid of the bad apples or get a new manager. The latter is the most common option as it is the easiest.

 

[de g.]

COH don't have a decision to make its been made for them by all of the above. Any further delay beyond Ipswich and it will be toxic at the Charlton game. I'm sure the Directors don't want a repeat of the Millwall post match confrontations. Its a complete mess and needs to be addressed now.

I think this is the crux. He's either the right manager, in which case it's not a few more games but rather back him to the end of the season. Or he's the wrong manager, then get rid now. Dragging it out for a few more games is basically just sunk-cost fallacy management.

 

[Captain Obvious]

Giving him more time is just postponing the inevitable. Performances and points return couldn’t have gone any worse.

We look like conceding far too often and don’t create anything at the other end. Despite this he consistently plays Hamer, Ohare and Peck as a middle 3 with the belief that one day it’ll click…When every man and his dog knows it won’t.

The board should be identifying possible replacements today, it’s simply not going to get any better, he’s shown how limited and naive he is. Sticking with him is just surrendering more points.

 

[Toronto Blade]

I'd give him until Charlton at home. If we're still winless after that, I think he'll have to go.

Wait until after Charlton with no wins that would be disastrous we are already 12 points behind. Another other losses would be 18 back.18 points over a season is a season over

 

[Cheeky Blade]

Pre-season opponents not picked by him, given a squad and 3 of the spine of that pre-season regulars were sold. Given 7 weeks of a pre-season from appointment to 1st game, a lot of the other teams in the division were secured from relegation months ago and have had time to evaluate their squads. We had 8 shots yesterday, not one on target isn’t down to the manager. Next week and then the international break has come at a good time to reset. The next time to review is in the October international break

Do you think it would have changed anything if Selles had picked our pre-season opponents?

Thought he picked the last two btw?

Do you think we were unlucky to lose yesterday ( or in any game so far)

 

[de g.]

Wait until after Charlton with no wins that would be disastrous we are already 12 points behind. Another other losses would be 18 back.18 points over a season is a season over

What if we win two, then lose four more? Do we then give him until after the Blackburn game, rinse and repeat?

 

[Seun]

I genuinely think what we're seeing here is bit more structural than tactical. Central midfield has been our obvious weak point for at least 3 or 4 seasons now, if not longer. For the most part we were able to mitigate by having an extra man in a back 3.

Since moving to a back 4, it became apparent that Gus whilst being a CM on paper was too tactically indisciplined to play there, but he's in arguably our most creative player, so CW stuck him on the left wing with license to roam, where he could orchestrate things without being much a liability - Burrows would provide the width we lost from Hamer drifting inside, but we couldn't have too much of that on the right flank which is why Seriki arguably our best RWB played second fiddle to Gilchrist, that Ipswich lad and eventually Choudary.

This decision to play Choudary eventually meant we couldnt play inverted wingers like JRS or Brooks on the right flank, hence fucking BBD started showing up at RW when he'd done his best work the season before cutting in from the left on his right foot, or Ohare a 10 also getting picked at RW

Wilder was able to make some headway in solving the Gus problem because he at least had a pairing of Souza and Peck who looked really good as a screening pair, where they had looked(Souza) or currently look(Peck) diabolical in a solo holding role.

Selles is definitely a trash manager, but I also cant discoujt the fact that he's inherited the Gus problem with fewer tools to play with. He clearly wants Gus on the ball as much as possible which is why Gus is dropping deeper than I've ever seen him to collect the ball from the CBs, but in dropping that deep is further away from where we need him - closer to their goal.

Peck can't progress the ball, Ohare is too offensive minded, and we still have the Right flank problem, which Selles attempted to solve by putting fucking Canon there with disastrous consequences against Millwall.

I think there's a good argument for Selles to go, but also think he needs a solid tested DM not soumare and a proper tested RW since Barry has blocked the Gus to left wing move, before I can truly say whats what.

Must be difficult as a manager when starting your best technical player isnt necessarily the best tactical decisoon

 

[ZoneManWilf]

I have a Saints mate and he said what would happen the day we appointed him. (summarising)

"He's a con job, stolen jobs on the merry-go-round, must be good at interviews. A total clown. Genuine nut job who talks in word salads that you have zero clue what he means. Picks the weirdest teams, with players out of position.

Referring to a Saints game at Leeds - he played a CF right wing, and a right winger at left back, players spent whole game looking at the dugout asking what to do, heads shaking, never seen it so bad. He will then come out and say 'stay calm'.

He is the usual trendy bullshit bedwetter skinny jean wearing twat owners like it seems"

He was ok at Reading with minuscule expectations and a bunch of kids.

The guy is completely out of his depth, has no clue how to operate a top half Championship side, his tactical nouse if he has any is a paper thin, based loosely on current 'trends' but simply doesn't survive in actual competitive games. He does not seem to be able to convey the intention of our tactical approach to the players (who by the way also need to look at themselves - agree Selles is not the only issue at the moment)

Regardless of the lack of defensive strength (not his fault and the one point I sympathise with, as he was been left woefully short with the poor recruitment), he has seen our midfield 3 being overrun in 4 games, and yet persisted with the approach against Boro. All the teams we have played are mid-table / upper mid-table at best and we've been schooled and dominated in each match, it's been a cakewalk for all our opponents to get a win. We are spineless, and need someone who can motivate and give a purpose to this squad - it doesn't need to be a throwing the teacup type manager, it needs one who has tactical cohesion and adaptability, can work and explain ideas to the players and get their buy-in.

We utterly fucked up the appointment, whoever did their homework on Selles fucked up massively, the guy simply cannot hack it and it is so utterly obvious. It is much better to acknowledge all that, admit mistakes happen, especially early in a new regime, and move on quickly so we can try and rescue this season. The international break is the perfect time.

Get rid now.

 

[LBA_Blade]

Do you think it would have changed anything if Selles had picked our pre-season opponents?

Thought he picked the last two btw?

Do you think we were unlucky to lose yesterday ( or in any game so far)

Yes as like the last 2 he picked stronger opponents rather than a pre-season tour of Yorkshire and Derbyshire. He had a competitive fixture with Fulham and Nice. It would have also helped if he had a settled squad that he was improving rather than being forced to reduce and wait weeks into the season to replace.

The Bristol City game could realistically gone either way at one point and if we had a settled defence, playing mental ball like that we could have won. The 3 other league fixtures, I wouldn’t say we were unlucky as you do make your own luck. However individual errors cost us the 1 goal in each of the games, although they could have come at any time, under Wilder and Hecky we seemed to have that bit of luck that went for us. The game I always think about is the Bash arriving away at Leeds, they hit the post, missed sitters all over the place but a flicked on hoof ball sat nicely for Bash to shin it in. Realistically on stats paper we didn’t deserve to win that but we rode our luck. With ‘Boro yesterday we had more possession, more passes and 8 shots but without a shot on target we aren’t going to win, not to single anyone out too much but if Mee is in that CB partnership Boro don’t score that goal yesterday and we probably frustratingly get a 0-0 draw out of that.

 

[Sean Thornton]

I like to think of myself as being one of the more reasonable positive types.

So I do agree….that 4 games is far too small a sample to judge anyone.
Also agree the 1st half at home to Bristol City was actually entertaining….on another day we’re 2-1 up at half time…then it’s a different game.

However I try to look behind the results and judge performances….look for signs of improvement and try to find valid excuses for the manager.
The problem is….our performances have been worse than our results….with no sign of improvement…in fact we seem to be getting worse.

My big problem is….everyone makes mistakes….fair enough
But I don’t see any sign that Selles is reviewing each match, learning from mistakes and evolving his tactics/ formations.
We’re not scoring goals but the worrying part is we’re struggling to even create chances
Also sometimes there are massive spaces at the back….as though the players don’t know the formation.
Normally it would be madness to sack anyone after 4 matches but if we can find a decent replacement then I’m not against a change.

Does anyone know the nature of Wilders current context?
Instead of sacking him and negotiating a final payment to terminate his contract.
Have we kept Wilder as a current employee and told him to stay at home whilst he collects his monthly salary (known as gardening leave).
If this is the case…..then can’t we simply ask him to return to his duties as per his current contract….at no extra cost and put Selles on gardening leave?

You’ve already tried the last bit. His contract as an employee would have been terminated when he left. There may be monies outstanding dependent on any agreement but it doesn’t constitute gardening leave. It’s nonsense not the insight you seem to think it is.

 

[HVR]

Many, many years ago, as a teenager at High Storrs School, we had a Canoe session on the duck pond before Forge Dam. The teacher had a classroom brief and went through all the moves and how to navigate prior to us going on the water. He also introduced us to the "Eskimo Roll" - if the boat starts to tilt, you have to practice this technique, but you can push yourself under and pop up at the other side - it's quite complicated, and requires calmness and patience. Of course, I wasn't listening to this part, as I was sure I wouldn't tip over.

Towards the end of the lesson, the teacher stood in the water and asked if anyone wanted to practice it - with him standing over the canoe, helping to tip it back over, if anyone got into trouble. I just paddled off doing my own thing. The teacher then shouted for everyone to paddle their canoes back to the edge of the pond as the lesson was over.

It was at this point, of course, that I decided to do my Eskimo Roll, on my own, away from everyone - just to see what would happen. I tipped the boat, but as I was heading towards the water, I panicked. I flung my arms out and started to thrash about, doggy paddle style - my legs were stuck in the canoe and it was dragging me under - my desperate thrashing just about kept my head above water, and eventually, I was able to dip my head under and free myself.

It's a near death experience that has always stayed with me - thrash about aimlessly just about keeping your head above water, or calmly go under and accept the drowning experience, to eventually rise up and free yourself. You can achieve a lot by simply thrashing about (ie: not die) but you can also achieve a lot more if you accept the inevitable, but face it with a calm plan to get out of your situation.

Sorry, what was the question again?

 

[Not_a_Cheat]

Id argue we put up more of a fight at their place yesterday, than we did under Wilder.
Chong taps that cross in and its a while different story as well.

How did the fight go against Bristol and Swansea?

 

[The Crab]

Ordinarily I’d say it’s way too soon.

But his position is completely untenable

 

[Not_a_Cheat]

No one would dispute we are not quite there yet. If after 10 games we are still bottom I will be calling for his head too.

Not quite there yet, brilliant. You should be on stage

 

[Edgar Allan Poo]

'Not quite'? As in a million miles away.

Congratulations for the most optimistic/deluded post of the weekend.

Is there a prize?