Where do the FA get these refs from?

[blade too long]

The result of it all is , the correct decision was given , , some refs wouldnt have budged on the decision , so fair play to him for being devils advocate , getting confirmation his view wasnt the best and accepting the case for the defence, and having the balls to reverse his decison . Freeman gave the ball away badly which shouldnt be overlooked, and when the ref gave a bounce up to restart the game the Brentford players petulance in thumping it as hard as he could showed how they felt a gift had been given then taken away, been interesting to see what would have happened if hed shot it into the goal , that would have been a rumpus .

 

[Highbury_Blade]

And obviously let's not forget that the 4th goal shouldn't have been allowed either

 

[Sothall_Blade]

I think a lot of the time, the reaction of the players and the crowd tell the officials when they've got it very badly wrong.
You normally get the odd grumble from a player and abuse from sections of the crowd but the apopletic response from all around last night will have quickly sown seeds of doubt in the ref's mind.

At which point, he can either brazen it out , suffer abuse for 90 minutes and have everybody pore over the footage of his imcompetence long after the match finishes. Or he can trot over to his assistant and say "I think I must have made a right f*** up here. Just make it look like we're discussing it for a minute and then I'll be able to change my mind. I'll still look like a right prat but at least I won't be an incompetent prat."

Usually, they just brazen it out so all credit to the ref for admitting he got it wrong while on the pitch, not in the dressing room afterwards.

 

[moDtheGod]

To be perfectly honest I'd be far more interested to hear what the ref has to say about the key decisions than Wenger's "I didn't see it", or Mourinho saying something controversial just to get a rise out of someone. Perhaps if we get 10 seconds of the refs on MotD and have a ref join two players on a 3-man panel for live matches we'll get to know them and treat them as humans. Maybe then we can be more forgiving of their mistakes because we know who they are and how they see things.

Most people think referees have an ego and want to be the star of the show. Are you sure that elevating them to household name status by putting them on a TV show alongside great ex-players is really a good idea?

 

[stannyblade]

An astronaut mate of mine who is currently orbiting the Earth in the International Space Station texted me to say that even from 230 miles above China it looked a clean and legit tackle.

Fair play to the ref though for taking his lino's opinion and then showing the balls to admit the mistake.

Has he spotted the ball following Simmos penalty at all?

 

[blade too long]

Lets not forget our season in the prem the ref at West Ham disallowing a last minute equaliser , for a push on the keeper , which had been done accidentally by a west ham player , the ref admitted after the game he got it wrong , but as a result of that it cost us our place in the prem, not that we knew it at the time, so better to get it right there and then .

 

[Punk Blade]

Most people think referees have an ego and want to be the star of the show. Are you sure that elevating them to household name status by putting them on a TV show alongside great ex-players is really a good idea?

Yes. It will allow them to prove that they don't have an ego and are there to give the best decisions they can. Even if they do have egos maybe they can get it out of their systems in TV studios rather than on a pitch every Saturday.

Worst case is they end up all having massive egos and are out to be the star and being on TV doesn't stop them acting out on the pitch, but at least then we all know we're fully justified in laying into them from the stands!

 

[Wapping Blade]

Yes. It will allow them to prove that they don't have an ego and are there to give the best decisions they can. Even if they do have egos maybe they can get it out of their systems in TV studios rather than on a pitch every Saturday.

Worst case is they end up all having massive egos and are out to be the star and being on TV doesn't stop them acting out on the pitch, but at least then we all know we're fully justified in laying into them from the stands!

Both Rugby League and the NFL now have access to ex-referees in commentary to try and explain things from a ref's point of view - they still don't always agree with the on-field decision though!

 

[Darren]

Lets not forget our season in the prem the ref at West Ham disallowing a last minute equaliser , for a push on the keeper , which had been done accidentally by a west ham player , the ref admitted after the game he got it wrong , but as a result of that it cost us our place in the prem, not that we knew it at the time, so better to get it right there and then .

But then the following Tuesday we got a last minute winner at Watford that was clearly offisde. Swings and roundabouts etc.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

For me, absolutely no. The 'goal line technology' was the thin end of the wedge. Just how many decisions would need to be reviewed? Offside/not offside causes most problems and will be next to be subject to video review, but a return to the old '2 opponents between the attacker and the goal line' is vastly superior to the present mess. And once all decisions are subject to video, how long before Wenger, Mourinho etc. bring up decisions that didn't go in their favour days later?

As we saw last night, errors are made. It's all part of the game.

I think all goals (and only goals) should be reviewed by the fourth official as matter of course.
When a goal is scored there is always a break in play of at least a minute anyway.
Ample time for any major errors to be noticed and the correct decision arrived at without breaking up play.

Often the ref can get abuse during the match even though he may have made the right decision.
If everyone in the ground can be sure that justice has been done. It will make the refs job easier not harder.

 

[wizadry]

But then the following Tuesday we got a last minute winner at Watford that was clearly offisde. Swings and roundabouts etc.

Totally agree daz,lets not get back into this argument again,it wasnt the refs or tevez that got us relegated ,it was the inept premiership man management from warnock what did that

 

[Highbury_Blade]

I think all goals (and only goals) should be reviewed by the fourth official as matter of course.

At what level of football do you apply that down to?

 

[Darren]

At what level of football do you apply that down to?

I would say any game where players are paid and thus where livelihoods are at stake; so perhaps down to conference level.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

At what level of football do you apply that down to?

Well, the obvious essential requirements are 1 or more cameras filming the action, a fourth official, a TV screen.
It shouldn't be beyond any club in League Two or above to provide those three things.
Most of them probably already do.

The old argument that you can't introduce changes that can't be applied at all levels doesn't seem to apply to those flags with buzzers and vibrating armbands and technical areas and electronic subs boards.

 

[Punk Blade]

But then the following Tuesday we got a last minute winner at Watford that was clearly offisde. Swings and roundabouts etc.

But it isn't swings and roundabouts. There was a website run that season, youneedspecsref.com, which I think was run by some students and unfortunately is no longer online. They reviewed all contentious issues relating directly to goals (over the line or not, offside or not, penalty or not - where a penalty should have been awarded but wasn't it was assumed it would have been scored) and published the actual league table against how it should have been. That goal at Watford was the only contentious decision relating directly to scoring that went in our favour all season, and I think we may have been on the receiving end of more bad decisions than anyone else (but at the very least we suffered far more than most). The evidence was fairly conclusive: poor decisions from referees favoured Southern clubs (especially the London clubs) and the big clubs. All teams whose league position was too high in reality were Southern or the likes of Manchester United, with the exception of Charlton (who no doubt were done down by the 'bigger' London clubs). It then follows that those who should have finished higher were Northern, or small teams, or worse, small Northern teams.

Considering we were relegated by a solitary goal, if these decisions 'evened out over the course of a season' as they tend to claim, we would have stayed up.

 

[Kenilworth]

Brentford could have argued that that was a back pass and they should have had an indirect free kick anyway

It's not considered a back pass if it is part of a tackle and the ball breaks to the 'keeper. It has to be a deliberate pass to the 'keeper for an indy free to be given.

 

[kozluk]

Totally agree daz,lets not get back into this argument again,it wasnt the refs or tevez that got us relegated ,it was the inept premiership man management from warnock what did that

My blame is on David Unsworth, for doing is job and scoring the penalty with such accuracy. Really though, we can complain about Tevez, Warnocks tactics, only going down by the one goal, man utd playing under strength, ref decisions. At the end of all that, we just weren't good enough, but we gave it a really good shot in term of effort, the quality wasn't there though consistently.

 

[Darren]

It's not considered a back pass if it is part of a tackle and the ball breaks to the 'keeper. It has to be a deliberate pass to the 'keeper for an indy free to be given.

I know, but Brentford could argue that Freeman was deliberately steering the ball back to the keeper

I recall when something similar happened when we played Luton at the Lane on 23/3/96 in a vital relegation 6 pointer. The ref gave a free kick to us much to Luton's annoyance. They were even more annoyed when the ball was touched to Hutchison and he scored the only goal of the game.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

Totally agree daz,lets not get back into this argument again,it wasnt the refs or tevez that got us relegated ,it was the inept premiership man management from warnock what did that

My blame is on David Unsworth, for doing is job and scoring the penalty with such accuracy. Really though, we can complain about Tevez, Warnocks tactics, only going down by the one goal, man utd playing under strength, ref decisions. At the end of all that, we just weren't good enough, but we gave it a really good shot in term of effort, the quality wasn't there though consistently.

Considering that only one player out of Warnock’s entire squad has been a Premiership regular since, you could argue that Warnock’s “man management” was in fact brilliant.

Squeezing 38 Premiership points out of players who’ve never reached such heights before or since was actually an amazing achievement when you think about it.

 

[kozluk]

Considering that only one player out of Warnock’s entire squad has been a Premiership regular since, you could argue that Warnock’s “man management” was in fact brilliant.

Squeezing 38 Premiership points out of players who’ve never reached such heights before or since was actually an amazing achievement when you think about it.

Kind off backed up what i said. I have noticed a typo in my post, i said can instead of cant. But yes, as i said the quality just wasn't there consistently.

 

[Darren]

Considering that only one player out of Warnock’s entire squad has been a Premiership regular since, you could argue that Warnock’s “man management” was in fact brilliant.

Squeezing 38 Premiership points out of players who’ve never reached such heights before or since was actually an amazing achievement when you think about it.

Which of that squad have played in the PL after leaving United? I can think of:

Kenny - QPR
Unsworth - Wigan 06-07 of course
Davis - Derby in the disastrous 07-08
Jagielka - of course
Kabba - few games with Watford in 06-07
Kilgallon - Sunderland over a few seasons
Armstrong - some games with Reading?
Leighterwood - QPR?
S. Quinn - Hull these past two seasons

Is that everyone?

 

[kozluk]

Which of that squad have played in the PL after leaving United? I can think of:

Kenny - QPR
Unsworth - Wigan 06-07 of course
Davis - Derby in the disastrous 07-08
Jagielka - of course
Kabba - few games with Watford in 06-07
Kilgallon - Sunderland over a few seasons
Armstrong - some games with Reading?
Leighterwood - QPR?
S. Quinn - Hull these past two seasons

Is that everyone?

don't forget Kazim Richards. Not the prem i know, but still a very high level with Fenerbahce.

 

[kozluk]

oh and didn't webber play a few games for Portsmouth in the relegation season?

 

[Sothall_Blade]

Which of that squad have played in the PL after leaving United? I can think of:

Kenny - QPR
Unsworth - Wigan 06-07 of course
Davis - Derby in the disastrous 07-08
Jagielka - of course
Kabba - few games with Watford in 06-07
Kilgallon - Sunderland over a few seasons
Armstrong - some games with Reading?
Leighterwood - QPR?
S. Quinn - Hull these past two seasons

Is that everyone?

Yes, as I said only one Premiership regular (Jagielka) in the seven seasons since we went down.
All the rest have managed maybe one season at most before dropping back down.
They were Championship players who Warnock moulded into (almost) a Premiership team.

 

[kozluk]

I may get slated for this, but i thought other than Hulse, Stead was our most creative and consistent performer that season. Its so sad to see his career go so down hill since.

 

[Darren]

oh and didn't webber play a few games for Portsmouth in the relegation season?

You're right he did, but just checked and Armstrong didn't.

Revised list:

Kenny QPR 33 appearances 2011-12
Unsworth Wigan 10 appearances 2006-07
Davis Derby 19 apearances 07-08
Jaielka - Everton 203 apperances 2007-14
Kabba - Watford 10ish appearances 06-07
Webber Portsmouth - 17 apperances 2009-10
Kilgallon - Sunderland 23 apperances 2009-113
Leigterwood - Reading - 30 apperances 2012-13
Quinn - Hull - 11 apperances 2013-14
Tonge - Stoke 12 apperances 2008-13

It's notable that Kabba, Webber, Davis and Leigterwood all only played one season in the PL post United and in relegation teams. Apart from Jags only Kenny has been a regular in a PL team that wasn't relegated

Edit: forgot about Tonge!

 

[Darren]

Yes, as I said only one Premiership regular (Jagielka) in the seven seasons since we went down.
All the rest have managed maybe one season at most before dropping back down.
They were Championship players who Warnock moulded into (almost) a Premiership team.

Kilgallon is the exception - he managed 4 seasons at Sunderland - but average only 5-6 games a season.

Edit: and Tonge - 12 games over 5 seasons at Stoke!

 

[PeterNdlovu081]

Considering that only one player out of Warnock’s entire squad has been a Premiership regular since, you could argue that Warnock’s “man management” was in fact brilliant.

Squeezing 38 Premiership points out of players who’ve never reached such heights before or since was actually an amazing achievement when you think about it.

Interesting stuff. Here's the Premier League appearances for our players since we were relegated on the last day of 2006-07.

203 Phil Jagielka (Everton)
33 Paddy Kenny (QPR)
30 Mikele Leigertwood (Reading)
23 Matthew Kilgallon (Sunderland)
19 Claude Davis (Derby)
17 Danny Webber (Portsmouth)
12 Michael Tonge (Stoke)
11 Stephen Quinn (Hull)
2 Rob Hulse (QPR)

Slim pickings indeed.

 

[Darren]

Interesting stuff. Here's the Premier League appearances for our players since we were relegated on the last day of 2006-07.

203 Phil Jagielka (Everton)
33 Paddy Kenny (QPR)
30 Mikele Leigertwood (Reading)
23 Matthew Kilgallon (Sunderland)
19 Claude Davis (Derby)
17 Danny Webber (Portsmouth)
12 Michael Tonge (Stoke)
11 Stephen Quinn (Hull)
2 Rob Hulse (QPR)

Slim pickings indeed.

I forgot Hulse!

So, Jags apart, thats 147 in close on 7 seasons if that was just one player, he would only have been playing 21 games a season.

So What Warnock had was one PL clas player (Jags) and 8 others who, if you merged them together, might make one other PL class player!

 

[blade too long]

yes , the up shot being we were a championship side in the prem , with championship level players , which is why it always wrankles when people say we have fallen further than in reality . We have, as the prem season was a temporary high been a championship level team in reality for 30 years, using the prem card to beat a point to death is nt in touch with reality,