Outgoing? Chris Wilder

[54yrblade]

The media narrative appears to be that it’s Wilder’s traditional scouting methods with data playing a role vs the new owners’ methods in which data and AI plays a much larger role. This extends to AI and data being used much more for player identification over existing scouting methods for spotting players. I said separately that I think the owners should be a bit more open about this approach otherwise you lose the narrative to the likes of Alan Biggs and Alan Nixon. And it’s why you have people suggesting this is all about an approach entirely driven by AI.

Regardless, use or not of data and AI is likely ultimately not the deciding factor here rather the role that Wilder plays in transfers and the owners assessment of the job he’s done to date.

Alan Biggs is critical of the boards approach, on twitter, and of anyone critical of CW.

Unsurprisingly

 

[CaptainMorgans]

Recruitment won’t be based solely on AI and stats. What football club owner in their right mind is going to sign off on a multi million pound transfer deal based solely on AI and stats? None!

Out of interest, what more do you think went into the Jefferson Caceres deal?

 

[Blade58]

Why is it when other clubs do stuff some people bang on about it, and whatever we do make out it's shit?
For ages people have been saying "Look at Brentford, big team of analysts using latest tech to identify young talent, and run at a profit, why don't we do that?"
Then when we do it it's " Just using AI to pick new players and ignore the manager, load of bollocks"

Why??

I didn’t say it was shit GCB

As I said in the post, it depends to what level the managers input is allowed. Seems to me that if Wilder is going the level is not acceptable ………… to him

 

[Grappler]

"Identifying" players and signing players are two different things.

The three lads that we have signed using "AI and Data"; would we have known about them using any traditional method?, do we have a scouting system which covers Botev Plovdiv (and surrounding teams), or Melgar/Binacional and surrounding teams in Peru?

We should (and probably do) know all about the players in Western Europe and I would imagine we are already scouting and planning these, as they are playing (in many cases) for very well known teams, but using this approach to find good, fringe players, or potentially unearthing a real gem, is not a bad thing.

I think people are also making the mistake of thinking that AI is making a decision. The AI will basically sift through tons of data, way quicker than any human could, and present you with the answers to the questions that you have given it. The key being the data that it sifts through. If you don't have all the data, you can never get all the answers.

All of our board appear to be, on paper, excellent business people, you don't get to be like this guy, unless you are literally the luckiest person in the world.

I really would be amazed if the manager is falling out with the board, based on us signing three young lads for relative peanuts, when they backed him with £10 million on a single player.

 

[Greasy Chap Butty]

I didn’t say it was shit GCB

As I said in the post, it depends to what level the managers input is allowed. Seems to me that if Wilder is going the level is not acceptable ………… to him

Sorry pal, you were just last one to comment on the theme, I know you didn't say it that bad.
It is a theme though.
My personal assumption is that as sensible, successful tech people, they are using it as an additional tool, as other clubs will be.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Sorry pal, you were just last one to comment on the theme, I know you didn't say it that bad.
It is a theme though.
My personal assumption is that as sensible, successful tech people, they are using it as an additional tool, as other clubs will be.

“My personal assumption is that as sensible, successful tech people, they are using it as an additional tool, as other clubs”

Backing that sort of thinking? Club plant!


(Any photos of you and Snek at the airport?)

 

[FTPE]

4 more years!
4 more years!

 

[ChipButtyBlade]

My internal AI says we should grab this kid.

Vaclav Sejk

 

[Greasy Chap Butty]

Out of interest, what more do you think went into the Jefferson Caceres deal?

They had to link AI to the bank account, so it could transfer the fee and book flights.
It did the press release stuff easily enough too.
We'll have to check it gets the shirt numbers right next season, when it issues the first match team sheet that it's picked.

 

[blades_95]

Alan Biggs is critical of the boards approach, on twitter, and of anyone critical of CW.

Unsurprisingly

The local media have been CW fanboys all season, especially Danny Hall & Rob Staton (and I usually find Rob to be quite fair & balanced).

They were very dismissive towards fans when concerns were raised about the lack of playing style & reliance on Hamer. Telling fans they’re ungrateful and entitled was a strange move. Fans said the performances would catch up with us & so it proved.

I find the local media don’t really challenge Wilder, even in that week we imploded he wasn’t pushed on anything. There are legitimate questions to ask him about playing style, January signings, team selections, fitness etc but it feels like they’re afraid to ask about things that might piss Wilder off.

And now it feels like the local media are doubling down and making out CW is the only person that could possibly manage us.

 

[54yrblade]

They're keen on writing, but maybe not to tell the whole story.

It would be grand to get a view from behind the scenes in terms of what happened when Wilder left and Hecky took over and how long CW was working on his relationship with the former owner before he returned. More importantly, did Hecky know?

 

[Roygbiv]

This narrative that AI is going to sign all the players with no input from the manager is immediately rubbished when you look at the January transfer window. We signed 2 players who had been with Wilder previously and 1 who he was after before the new owners came in.

The AI thing is a total red herring. The board will have their own ideas but we have evidence that the manager will get a huge say in who we sign. If the owners are concerned with Wilder regarding transfers it will be because January was a huge failure when we brought in players he wanted. They may also look at the last 5 windows he's overseen with us and Boro and conclude it's been poor.

There's many reasons why we should keep Wilder. There's also obvious question marks about his recent recruitment

 

[Moan? Nope-I saw Longhorn]

Probably better than Colin’s (alleged) AL approach with players (agents)
“Al see thee reight if tha sees me reight”

Or indeed (Clough B)

(apologies -?shite phone with no brown envelope emoji)

 

[Davalon]

The local media have been CW fanboys all season, especially Danny Hall & Rob Staton (and I usually find Rob to be quite fair & balanced).

They were very dismissive towards fans when concerns were raised about the lack of playing style & reliance on Hamer. Telling fans they’re ungrateful and entitled was a strange move. Fans said the performances would catch up with us & so it proved.

I find the local media don’t really challenge Wilder, even in that week we imploded he wasn’t pushed on anything. There are legitimate questions to ask him about playing style, January signings, team selections, fitness etc but it feels like they’re afraid to ask about things that might piss Wilder off.

And now it feels like the local media are doubling down and making out CW is the only person that could possibly manage us.

And why might that be?

Local journos will have a level of access to a local man and plenty of sources and contacts around him.

Johnny Foreigner comes in and they have sweet fa.

 

[Stevo71]

Alan Biggs is critical of the boards approach, on twitter, and of anyone critical of CW.

Unsurprisingly

We've had Heckingbottom in charge & sacked & Wilder making a return since then

 

[shaun the blade 1961]

Probably better than Colin’s (alleged) AL approach with players (agents)
“Al see thee reight if tha sees me reight”

Or indeed (Clough B)

(apologies -?shite phone with no brown envelope emoji)

What is wrong with the manager, whoever that is identifying the players he wants, then let the owners go through AI, for their approval,
I'm sure Jimmy dunne, for example would qualify easily, how fast and how far he can run, goal assists and, goal scored for a centre half right back,
Owners must have approved him in January

 

[blades_95]

And why might that be?

Local journos will have a level of access to a local man and plenty of sources and contacts around him.

Johnny Foreigner comes in and they have sweet fa.

Oh completely.

Danny Hall now actually seems to get a lot of scoops before anyone else, presumably from his relationship with Wilder / Wilder’s circle, so he wants to keep that.

But journalists should be asking tough questions when needed & asking things that fans want some answers to, not pandering to the manager’s ego.

 

[Gin&Juice]

It’s obvious the AI will play into development more than first team, we may have an amazing Cat I academy in a couple years with a couple of feeder clubs brought in. Similar to Brentford and Brighton.

 

[The Bohemian]

They have the likes of Des Taylor still around as advisors. If they were clueless as you assert, I doubt they would keep those types of people nearby.

To be clear, I don't have enough to go on from them so far to say they're the best thing since sliced bread, but it feels a little unfair to suggest they don't know what they're doing.

Nobody has suggested that Wilder has had players foisted on him. The club, presumably with CW's blessing, has signed 3 players who they believe have a good chance of making it to the first team, and/or generating a meaningful profit. That second point is excessively common in football nowadays, and I doubt any manager would complain about their club generating more profit.

And where's this coming from about "impose team selection decisions on him based on data". Any proof for that having happened at any point? Because I'm inclined to believe it's nonsense. Considering Wilder walked once over a disagreement with the Prince about transfer budgets, you can damn near guarantee that he wouldn't hang around if his bosses tried to tell him what team to put out.

After he rebuilt the squad, he had the entire season to get them trained up, to play in a manner that maximised their abilities. Instead, we played like an underdog all season, trying to sneak goals on the break, while throwing bodies on the line at the other end to hold onto clean sheets. The fact that we were still doing that at Wembley indicates a failure to improve from the start of the season.

Some figures from fbref for context:

• We admittedly had the 3rd best defence behind Burnley and Leeds, but we scored fewer goals than both of them too, as well as Middlesbrough, Coventry and Norwich.
• Even Wednesday had a higher xG than us for the season. Norwich, Middlesbrough, Coventry and Leeds did as well.
• We were 9th for progressive passes. West Brom, Swansea and Bristol City were 3 of the teams with more.

The squad that Wilder assembled, was absolutely capable of better than this. With the likes of Hamer, JRS, O'Hare, Campbell, just to name a few, we should have been aiming to dominate teams, and we simply did not do so. That can only be interpreted as a failure to develop the side.

Wilder's prior successes don't give him a free pass now. We all certainly cherish those moments, but in the same way that us signing Ched Evans from Chesterfield was a poor decision, despite how well he had played for us some years prior, Wilder potentially staying should not be justified solely on the principle that he got us up to the Premier League 6 years ago. Since he left in 2021, he has had unremarkable spells with Watford and Middlesbrough, a relegation from the Prem with us (that he is largely unresponsible for), and this season. And while we came close to promotion, I do not believe that he would have achieved anything other than another relegation, based on the underwhelming performances his team delivered in the Championship.

I’m not saying they definitively ‘are’ clueless just that they are offering a few strong clues that they might be. If they weren’t sure about Wilder why not wait till the end of the season before sorting out his new contract? Football clubs leak like colanders and it’s clear the ‘AI’ signings from Bulgaria were not done with Wilder’s blessing. That’s not to say they won’t prove good investments but surely, as new owners, you work hard to get a very experienced manager with a strong record in recruitment on board with your new approach …?

 

[Maidenhead]

Wit maybe half right

He's definitely a half wit.

 

[Moan? Nope-I saw Longhorn]

What is wrong with the manager, whoever that is identifying the players he wants, then let the owners go through AI, for their approval,
I'm sure Jimmy dunne, for example would qualify easily, how fast and how far he can run, goal assists and, goal scored for a centre half right back,
Owners must have approved him in January

Think you’ve missed my (alleged) ‘joke’
Equally - what is wrong with AI highlighting the players deemed to be suitable (for the business model) then let the manager identify the players therein he wants + as you describe using AI to analyse/ appraise his ‘picks’.
I’m not aware that there is reference / evidence that signings will be predicated purely on AI
There are also (& always have been) other ‘filters’ to consider irrespective of of AI & managers ‘preference’ including primarily cost ( & resale value) , short term impact / urgent immediate need , medical information, politics/PR
- I reckon both AI and most managers (?) would advocate signing Mason Greenwood - but I wouldn’t want the misogynistic twat anywhere near ‘my’ club irrespective of his (undoubted) footballing ability.
Ref Ebrell, Evans(?!?), King

 

[Davalon]

Frightening how many seem to think that the owners model is employing some geeky teenager to identify all recruited players with a basic football manager program to go straight into the first team, whilst looking for a yes man to just coach the team.

 

[The Fox]

If only AI could find wingers using the search term " GERRIT IN'T MIXER" all would be well .

 

[LondonBlade89]

Frightening how many seem to think that the owners model is employing some geeky teenager to identify all recruited players with a basic football manager program to go straight into the first team, whilst looking for a yes man to just coach the team.

Who has actually said they think that?

 

[raul]

We all know Hall's a Wilder loyalist. Needs to keep him sweet for the next book.

Given he's just had to put the manuscript for the glory of the 24/25 promotion book through his shredder, maybe not so much now?

 

[jt64]

What is wrong with the manager, whoever that is identifying the players he wants, then let the owners go through AI, for their approval,
I'm sure Jimmy dunne, for example would qualify easily, how fast and how far he can run, goal assists and, goal scored for a centre half right back,
Owners must have approved him in January

AI might also tell you that players who will be 28 by the end of the year and have played their last four seasons in the Championship have likely found their level?

 

[Roygbiv]

Alex Crook just said on Talksport that there is something in Wilders contract that means we get rid of him fairly cheaply now we haven't gone up and he expected it to happen weeks ago

 

[Aston max]

I think any major issue is finding the right replacement . Thoroughly depends on the owners ambition ?
I'd love to see someone like Dominica todescu ( we can dream)

 

[Frank the tank]

Alex Crook just said on Talksport that there is something in Wilders contract that means we get rid of him fairly cheaply now we haven't gone up and he expected it to happen weeks ago

They was pretty interesting
Sounded like the owners were looking at replacing him before the play off final

 

[Blade58]

Alex Crook just said on Talksport that there is something in Wilders contract that means we get rid of him fairly cheaply now we haven't gone up and he expected it to happen weeks ago

Probably deduct the half a million in player fines from his settlement as well