Stuck in halfway house?

[Carlton Blade]

Mousset has 'done it' in the PL, across that season in total he showed his worth of being a PL player. N'Diaye has done very well, but at championship level.

How many goals do you think N'Diaye will score next season?

Mousset was good for a while and his lack of discipline killed that. Ndiaye is better technically and his desire both on and off the pitch is world class. Comparing him to Mousset negatively is embarrassing

It depends who he's playing for.

 

[Swannyblade]

Agreed, in terms of workrate. He's unlikely to have as much of an impact though. 10 goals would be surprising, imo, but his teamwork works in his favour.

As a cautionary note though, players like him who joined EPL teams (Bowen, Buendia, Eze etc) didn't have that much of an instant impact in terms of goals and assists. I really doubt he'll get 10 goals next season.

10 is a big ask in a team like ours next season - I expect us to set up to be solid and nick 1-0s when we can. 5 goals and some assists would be a good return for Ndiaye next year. He's going to be a number 10 behind a lone striker and he'll have more defensive responsibilities.
MGW only scored 5 for Forest this season and has been an undoubted success for them. I think Ndiaye will be asked to perform a similar role for us.
Remember, we only scored 39 goals when we finished 9th in 2019/20 - a goal per game average.

 

[FMBlade1]

Mousset was good for a while and his lack of discipline killed that. Ndiaye is better technically and his desire both on and off the pitch is world class. Comparing him to Mousset negatively is embarrassing

It depends who he's playing for.

I'm not comparing the two in terms of ability, however it cannot be disputed that Mousset has had a positive impact in the PL, N'Diaye has yet to do so (not his fault).

The point is, there is a risk, in the context of the general discussion, that he might not make the necessary step up or contribute enough like Taarabt (or many other players like Cameron Jerome, Dwight Gayle etc).

We'd be putting all our eggs in one basket by relying on him.

 

[Carlton Blade]

I'm not comparing the two in terms of ability, however it cannot be disputed that Mousset has had a positive impact in the PL, N'Diaye has yet to do so (not his fault).

The point is, there is a risk, in the context of the general discussion, that he might not make the necessary step up or contribute enough like Taarabt (or many other players like Cameron Jerome, Dwight Gayle etc).

We'd be putting all our eggs in one basket by relying on him.

Taarabt who never took his career seriously? Comparing Ndiaye to the other two is silly

 

[FMBlade1]

Taarabt who never took his career seriously? Comparing Ndiaye to the other two is silly

There are loads of players who have done very well in the championship and not done well in the premiership.

I hope that N'Diaye will not be one of them. Taarabt did better in 'that' season in terms of stats that N'Diaye did, though I admit QPR had a better team.

 

[FMBlade1]

Fleck has been offered a new contract. That firmly indicates to me that we're looking at 'option B'.

 

[Silent Blade]

Woodward & Currie, Edwards, Deane, he's defo in the top 5 though.

Ndiaye far better than Edwards!

 

[Panini]

Why do you doubt that? If there's no fee the number of teams who'll want him goes up. A lot

Hmm I doubt it'll work like that.

The amount of money required to sign him won't change much, but it'll be a higher share going to the player in the form of wages, bonuses and signing on fee rather than some of it being eaten by the selling club.

 

[Panini]

I still think if we hold on to Berge and Ndiaye and get relegated then that's us fucked. Especially given how few players we'll have under contract. If you get £25 million for both then there's a chance to reinvest and have a team capable of challenging for promotion.

The transfer value of players in the final year of their contract is much lower than their true value.

The money we could get for Berge and Ndiaye is nowhere near what it would cost to fill the gaps they'd leave behind. Even that assumes they'd accept moves anyway, which they won't.

 

[alcoblade]

The transfer value of players in the final year of their contract is much lower than their true value.

The money we could get for Berge and Ndiaye is nowhere near what it would cost to fill the gaps they'd leave behind. Even that assumes they'd accept moves anyway, which they won't.

You bargaining power is less on the other - but enough teams fight for them, they can still go for high fees.

Very few people wanted Berge last season - I think his stock rose by the end of this and I could see his value being higher today than it was then, despite getting towards the end of his contract.

I agree with your second point, especially regarding Ndiaye.

 

[Panini]

We'd be putting all our eggs in one basket by relying on him.

Struggling to understand the logic here.

Here's our best player. We're not going to sign anyone else as good as him (not many are, to be honest).

Should we not have a "best player" so that we can avoid the feeling of putting all our eggs in one basket? Or should we accept that it's a blessing having a player whose ability is a mile above our squad's average ability level and appreciate it's likely to be this sort of player that is the difference between doing well and not doing well.

 

[Carlton Blade]

Hmm I doubt it'll work like that.

The amount of money required to sign him won't change much, but it'll be a higher share going to the player in the form of wages, bonuses and signing on fee rather than some of it being eaten by the selling club.

I'm pretty sure United will be asking for £15m. I'm also sure nobody is saying they'll give Ndiaye an extra £15m on top of what they would have offered

 

[robbiez666]

The transfer value of players in the final year of their contract is much lower than their true value.

The money we could get for Berge and Ndiaye is nowhere near what it would cost to fill the gaps they'd leave behind. Even that assumes they'd accept moves anyway, which they won't.

How are we filling the gaps they leave if we get relegated while they run their contract down. We'd get £20 million plus. Maybe more if there's a bidding war for Ndiaye.

 

[Carlton Blade]

How are we filling the gaps they leave if we get relegated while they run their contract down. We'd get £20 million plus. Maybe more if there's a bidding war for Ndiaye.

We aren't filling the gaps. If we go down, next year is a full on rebuild from scratch job. Give yourself the best possible opportunity to stay up and build on what you have. If it goes wrong, understand that you have 3 years to rebuild and get back

 

[robbiez666]

We aren't filling the gaps. If we go down, next year is a full on rebuild from scratch job. Give yourself the best possible opportunity to stay up and build on what you have. If it goes wrong, understand that you have 3 years to rebuild and get back

If you don't double drop. That's the worry. You can't just do a complete rebuild with no money and expect to not be looking downwards. Especially, since we pay lower wages than half that league when we're in it.

 

[Carlton Blade]

If you don't double drop. That's the worry. You can't just do a complete rebuild with no money and expect to not be looking downwards. Especially, since we pay lower wages than half that league when we're in it.

£20m extra now will just get swallowed up in costs. It isn't going to buy a competitive team in 24/25.

 

[jt64]

At no point have i said we shouldn't try to keep him. We should offer him the richest deal in the history of the club. But for his own career progression he will have a lot more choice of his next club if he's a free agent

I get where you're coming from with this one, but if we offered him what you suggest with a relatively sensible release clause that is activated after the end of the season (wouldn't want to pick a specific number, but let's say £20-25m for argument's sake), then any club he could reasonably want to go to is never being priced out of the market in terms of a transfer fee? He'd have the exact same freedom of potential clubs, as SUFC wouldn't be declining any bid, and he's then got the ability to choose his club based on financial terms, assurances of playing time, whatever's important to him. That, and he gets paid in 23/24

 

[Carlton Blade]

I get where you're coming from with this one, but if we offered him what you suggest with a relatively sensible release clause that is activated after the end of the season (wouldn't want to pick a specific number, but let's say £20-25m for argument's sake), then any club he could reasonably want to go to is never being priced out of the market in terms of a transfer fee? He'd have the exact same freedom of potential clubs, as SUFC wouldn't be declining any bid, and he's then got the ability to choose his club based on financial terms, assurances of playing time, whatever's important to him. That, and he gets paid in 23/24

I'm always using Marseille as an example. They don't have the cash to do that and pay him the same as the biggest English clubs. If that is where he wants to go then he's going to run his deal down. He gets to choose his own destination and get paid more than he would if he stayed here.

Just depends if he's willing to take the risk of playing this season under a lesser deal

 

[Panini]

I'm pretty sure United will be asking for £15m. I'm also sure nobody is saying they'll give Ndiaye an extra £15m on top of what they would have offered

No-one is paying over 10 this summer or January even if we and the player wanted a transfer. From the outside he's never played top flight football and has already made moves to run down his contract.

£10m over a 5-year contract is not what it seems.

£2.5m extra signing on fee
£15k extra salary
£15k extra bonuses/loyalty payments

Have a proper look at the contracts Bosman players end up on, the numbers above aren't unrealistic. Even if we use your number of £15m. It might bring one or two extra clubs into the mix because they're able to justify spreading the cost over 5 years more than they could justify a transfer fee.

More to the point, it's catch 22. Even if this somehow does make sense, we're left with a huge gap and not enough of a transfer fee to fill it.

 

[jt64]

I'm always using Marseille as an example. They don't have the cash to do that and pay him the same as the biggest English clubs.

I think Marseille are considerably better off than you think they are, especially if they get through the CL qualifiers this season. They spent a relative boatload for any non-PSG Ligue 1 club last year

 

[Carlton Blade]

No-one is paying over 10 this summer or January even if we and the player wanted a transfer. From the outside he's never played top flight football and has already made moves to run down his contract.

£10m over a 5-year contract is not what it seems.

£2.5m extra signing on fee
£15k extra salary
£15k extra bonuses/loyalty payments

Have a proper look at the contracts Bosman players end up on, the numbers above aren't unrealistic. Even if we use your number of £15m. It might bring one or two extra clubs into the mix because they're able to justify spreading the cost over 5 years more than they could justify a transfer fee.

More to the point, it's catch 22. Even if this somehow does make sense, we're left with a huge gap and not enough of a transfer fee to fill it.

I don't want to sell him?

 

[Carlton Blade]

I think Marseille are considerably better off than you think they are, especially if they get through the CL qualifiers this season. They spent a relative boatload for any non-PSG Ligue 1 club last year

I'm not saying they are skint. Just that I'd be surprised if they'd pay enough for United to think it's worthwhile to sell him

He's irreplaceable for United, regardless of the fee

 

[FMBlade1]

Struggling to understand the logic here.

Here's our best player. We're not going to sign anyone else as good as him (not many are, to be honest).

Should we not have a "best player" so that we can avoid the feeling of putting all our eggs in one basket? Or should we accept that it's a blessing having a player whose ability is a mile above our squad's average ability level and appreciate it's likely to be this sort of player that is the difference between doing well and not doing well.

Its not healthy for teams to rely on one player. If he gets injured/sold/suspended etc then we are in real difficulties. With a year left on his contract, if we're going with 'option B' I find it strange to keep him when we know we'll lose him on a free with no funds to launch a promotion bid in 2024-2025.

 

[Ricardo Mantelban]

How much for staying up. Compare this to relegation and the money we could get for the 2 players. I’m asking the question. I don’t know the facts.

 

[blade too long]

A lot of threads implying that Hecky is some gormless idiot with no idea who to sign

every time we start a season "fans" come on here expressing what a terrible plight we are in
and take out the covid empty ground debacle we have had 6 other positive seasons
yet in every one we were apparently desperately short of 6 or 7 quality players

Lets try a new tack, wait till transfers can actually take place and see who we get before throwing the toys and the pram out

 

[andy m]

£20m extra now will just get swallowed up in costs. It isn't going to buy a competitive team in 24/25.

Why would it get swallowed up in costs?

 

[Rebster72]

There’s no doubting Ndiaye is a great player but it makes me laugh when fans think the club would be nothing without him. Two seasons ago he’d not kicked a ball for us. At the end of the previous season fans were saying we would struggle without MGW. Guess what we didn’t. Players come and go and sometimes when contracts are running down you have to make brave decisions whether to stick or twist. Personally I think we stand a decent chance of survival next season with or without Ndiaye if we sign the right players.

 

[Carlton Blade]

Why would it get swallowed up in costs?

It's not going to sit in a bank account when there are still significant outstanding debts and the owner is wanting to sell

 

[FMBlade1]

It's not going to sit in a bank account when there are still significant outstanding debts and the owner is wanting to sell

Are we legally obliged to transfer any transfer income we generate directly to the creditors?

 

[Carlton Blade]

Are we legally obliged to transfer any transfer income we generate directly to the creditors?

No but why woukd you be paying 9% interest when you have cash?