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billyblademan said:
Without Norwood, our midfield at present consists of Berge. Given we need 5 midfielders in total, surely we can’t start with just one?
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Do you really think that’s what l was suggesting? Rather than replacing him?
 

billyblademan said:
The point was signing 3 midfielders in summer is hard enough, 4 will be very tricky. I think as a backup/experience for another year is a reasonable solution.
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He’s not up to it any more. Simple as. We employ people to find players who can do the job. Hanging onto him even as a squad player isn’t forward thinking.
 
RowTBlade10 said:
According to this article, the retained list has to be submitted and communicated by the third saturday in may i.e THIS saturday.

www.examinerlive.co.uk

Retained list date for Sheffield United to inform players of contract decisions

Sheffield United had decisions to make on a number of players heading into the summer break
www.examinerlive.co.uk www.examinerlive.co.uk
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Communicated to the EFL officially. Not necessarily publicly. I did assume we'd find out yesterday, or today, but perhaps Def Leppard will announce it live onstage.
 
Sean Thornton said:
He’s not up to it any more.
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Could you explain your maths here? For 70% of the season he was one of our best players. He played every game, almost every minute. And then his form went to shit. Maybe he was overplayed? Just needed a rest. He was certainly a lot better in the final couple of appearances.

I'd not be starting him, necessarily, but he's good enough to warrant another year as a squad player.
 
Hecky was trying to keep players the board wanted rid of, Sharp, Stevens, and that was part of the Geneva talks, so would also depend on how they went id expect.
 
BigBed said:
Hecky was trying to keep players the board wanted rid of, Sharp, Stevens, and that was part of the Geneva talks, so would also depend on how they went id expect.
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If we have little money, Hecky is in a really tough position. It takes time to train players into our system and our system is the only chance we have of staying up. We could let 6 go and sign 6 better players but they're not going to know the system and we'll concede goals because people aren't tracking, marking, covering etc.

replacing 10+ players with the way we play is likely to lead to disaster. Especially if those players are likely to be frees, loans or punts.
 
BigBed said:
Hecky was trying to keep players the board wanted rid of, Sharp, Stevens, and that was part of the Geneva talks, so would also depend on how they went id expect.
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The players you mentioned might have been offered reduced salaries, which would result in a delay while they look at other options
 
robbiez666 said:
Could you explain your maths here? For 70% of the season he was one of our best players. He played every game, almost every minute. And then his form went to shit. Maybe he was overplayed? Just needed a rest. He was certainly a lot better in the final couple of appearances.

I'd not be starting him, necessarily, but he's good enough to warrant another year as a squad player.
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Well to start there’s no maths involved. Unless you want to use his passing statistics, a football stat flawed by repeated5 yard passes in front of your back four.

His form dropped off alarmingly. Perhaps you’ve forgotten - and it’s not so long ago - of the calls to Hecky to drop him and play the youngsters? Which got us back on track. As l said, l’d rather the wages be used on someone who can be more than a squad player. He’s lost at least half a yard at least since the last PL season and pre Doyle coming in McCall was going mad it him in every game. We don’t need make do’s at the higher end of the current wage scale. He’s a luxury - if the word is used loosely - we can’t afford.

As for best player, l’d say the performances of Doyle when got in the side outshone most of what Norwood achieved when apparently he was up there with lniesta ! Or Bannan :)
 
Sean Thornton said:
Well to start there’s no maths involved. Unless you want to use his passing statistics, a football stat flawed by repeated5 yard passes in front of your back four.

His form dropped off alarmingly. Perhaps you’ve forgotten - and it’s not so long ago - of the calls to Hecky to drop him and play the youngsters? Which got us back on track. As l said, l’d rather the wages be used on someone who can be more than a squad player. He’s lost at least half a yard at least since the last PL season and pre Doyle coming in McCall was going mad it him in every game. We don’t need make do’s at the higher end of the current wage scale. He’s a luxury - if the word is used loosely - we can’t afford.

As for best player, l’d say the performances of Doyle when got in the side outshone most of what Norwood achieved when apparently he was up there with lniesta ! Or Bannan :)
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Yes, his form fell off a cliff. But before his form fell of the cliff I believe we were more than 10 points clear in second?

But for half the season, Doyle couldn't manage to play 90 minutes of football. Let alone consistent performances. But because he ended it strongly, we should definitely sign him but let Norwood go on a free? (I would be happy with both in the squad for next season, fyi)

If you're judging players over a season, then Norwood deserves another year. I get the point about aging and legs, and you're right. But, he had to play every single game, twice a week. I'd say that had a bad impact on his form. He looked shot.

Don't retain Norwood though, and we'll have to sign 5 new midfielders. Can you really see any club replacing 5 out of 6 of its midfield and not suffering badly? Especially one which relies on a fairly rigid system.
 

robbiez666 said:
Yes, his form fell off a cliff. But before his form fell of the cliff I believe we were more than 10 points clear in second?

Yes, his form fell off a cliff. But before his form fell of the cliff I believe we were more than 10 points cl

But for half the season, Doyle couldn't manage to play 90 minutes of football. Let alone consistent performances. But because he ended it strongly, we should definitely sign him but let Norwood go on a free? (I would be happy with both in the squad for next season, fyi)

At the business end of the season Doyle did the business. If we could get him l’d say yes. I’m confused in that you champion Norwood based on his performances earlier in the season yet query signing a young player who’s performances speak for themselves once it dawned on Hecky that Norwood wasn’t working.

If you're judging players over a season, then Norwood deserves another year. I get the point about aging and legs, and you're right. But, he had to play every single game, twice a week. I'd say that had a bad impact on his form. He looked shot.

Don't retain Norwood though, and we'll have to sign 5 new midfielders. Can you really see any club replacing 5 out of 6 of its midfield and not suffering badly? Especially one which relies on a fairly rigid system.


But for half the season, Doyle couldn't manage to play 90 minutes of football. Let alone consistent performances. But because he ended it strongly, we should definitely sign him but let Norwood go on a free? (I would be happy with both in the squad for next season, fyi)

If you're judging players over a season, then Norwood deserves another year. I get the point about aging and legs, and you're right. But, he had to play every single game, twice a week. I'd say that had a bad impact on his form. He looked shot.

Don't retain Norwood though, and we'll have to sign 5 new midfielders. Can you really see any club replacing 5 out of 6 of its midfield and not suffering badly? Especially one which relies on a fairly rigid system.
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And when he was struggling game after game that 10 point lead went South.

Doyle came good. It’s not about him anyway.

He looked shot because he was constantly given the run around. Even when we were doing well with him in the side his inability to get back was a worry. Hence he dropped back as games progressed. His Hollywood ping wasn’t going to be as useful from 10 yards in front of his own penalty area as it would from the halfway line. As we saw.

The PL won’t be any easier. Even as a squad player. He’s ageing and it caught up with him. Not his fault but l’d like to think hiis wages could be better spent elsewhere. You advocate him only as a squad player and say we need to sign another 4 midfield players.IF we can’t, financially. Would you give him a starting berth next season? There’s the answer.
 
I'd keep Norwood, but admittedly he's not the best sort of midfielder we could have on the bench

I suspect he'll want to move on and will look for a 3 year contract at a decent championship club

It could be a problem for us though if we lose too many of the stalwarts
 
Norwood has unfortunately regressed and isnt the player that he once was. Still useful and no doubt a good character to have around the changing room and he bring a wealth of experience. I'm sure he could do a fill in job for the odd match if needed, but if he was to be retained then we are potentially paying a fairly healthy wage to someone who is only going to be a fill in player and whknis only going to regress further as he gets older.

He has been fantastic for us since he signed and a real leader and I hear that he's never missed a training session since he became a professional. However we have limited funds and need to eek out everything we can put of our budget and wages will be a part of that. On balance, I would rather we use that money that would be set aside for his wages on another younger player who whilst maybe not up to week in week out level at PL next season, has the chance to be coached and made better by PH and the coaching team so that we have a player developing and going in the right direction rather than a player who is only going to get worse and slow down even more. I bet the argument for not ripping everything up and each player should be considered on an individual basis, but I am hoping that we are looking to replace Norwood with a young player who wants to achieve and learn. Sometimes things just come to a natural end. It's no one's fault.
 
Sean Thornton said:
And when he was struggling game after game that 10 point lead went South.

Doyle came good. It’s not about him anyway.

He looked shot because he was constantly given the run around. Even when we were doing well with him in the side his inability to get back was a worry. Hence he dropped back as games progressed. His Hollywood ping wasn’t going to be as useful from 10 yards in front of his own penalty area as it would from the halfway line. As we saw.

The PL won’t be any easier. Even as a squad player. He’s ageing and it caught up with him. Not his fault but l’d like to think hiis wages could be better spent elsewhere. You advocate him only as a squad player and say we need to sign another 4 midfield players.IF we can’t, financially. Would you give him a starting berth next season? There’s the answer.
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You assume we can sign a better player than Norwood, in the Norwood role, who will accept the same wages and be a back up?

This seems a little fanciful.
 
Weasel said:
Norwood has unfortunately regressed and isnt the player that he once was. Still useful and no doubt a good character to have around the changing room and he bring a wealth of experience. I'm sure he could do a fill in job for the odd match if needed, but if he was to be retained then we are potentially paying a fairly healthy wage to someone who is only going to be a fill in player and whknis only going to regress further as he gets older.

He has been fantastic for us since he signed and a real leader and I hear that he's never missed a training session since he became a professional. However we have limited funds and need to eke out everything we can put of our budget and wages will be a part of that. On balance, I would rather we use that money that would be set aside for his wages on another younger player who whilst maybe not up to week in week out level at PL next season, has the chance to be coached and made better by PH and the coaching team so that we have a player developing and going in the right direction rather than a player who is only going to get worse and slow down even more. I bet the argument for not ripping everything up and each player should be considered on an individual basis, but I am hoping that we are looking to replace Norwood with a young player who wants to achieve and learn. Sometimes things just come to a natural end. It's no one's fault.
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I think the wages point is the crux of it - I’m in the keep Norwood as a squad player camp (for morale/experience etc), but if his wages flow from a Premier League starting 11 contract and therefore are completely divorced from this new level of contribution that’s a problem.

Either he accepts the PL squad player role with revised remuneration (doubt he would tbh) or keeping him becomes potentially unpalatable.

If I were him I’d probably be more tempted to play a full Championship campaign and try and get yet another promotion on my CV.
 
robbiez666 said:
Yes, his form fell off a cliff. But before his form fell of the cliff I believe we were more than 10 points clear in second?

But for half the season, Doyle couldn't manage to play 90 minutes of football. Let alone consistent performances. But because he ended it strongly, we should definitely sign him but let Norwood go on a free? (I would be happy with both in the squad for next season, fyi)

If you're judging players over a season, then Norwood deserves another year. I get the point about aging and legs, and you're right. But, he had to play every single game, twice a week. I'd say that had a bad impact on his form. He looked shot.

Don't retain Norwood though, and we'll have to sign 5 new midfielders. Can you really see any club replacing 5 out of 6 of its midfield and not suffering badly? Especially one which relies on a fairly rigid system.
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It's the nature of football fans to want something shiny and new. Manager's tend to prefer steady experience, especially this manager, despite what he says about bringing through youth.

I suspect we'll offer him a decent deal for the reasons you state and he'll sign it eventually, because it's the best offer he'll get.
 
robbiez666 said:
You assume we can sign a better player than Norwood, in the Norwood role, who will accept the same wages and be a back up?

This seems a little fanciful.
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:)

I hope we’d sign a better first choice initially. I’d also hope if we were going to sign a back up on the sane wage as Norwood he’d be a younger hungrier version. As you point out, it’s a squad game.
 
blade67 said:
It's the nature of football fans to want something shiny and new. Manager's tend to prefer steady experience, especially this manager, despite what he says about bringing through youth.

I suspect we'll offer him a decent deal for the reasons you state and he'll sign it eventually, because it's the best offer he'll get.
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“because it's the best offer he'll get”


Which does say something about the situation. IMO anyhow.
 
Teddy said:
I think the wages point is the crux of it - I’m in the keep Norwood as a squad player camp (for morale/experience etc), but if his wages flow from a Premier League starting 11 contract and therefore are completely divorced from this new level of contribution that’s a problem.

Either he accepts the PL squad player role with revised remuneration (doubt he would tbh) or keeping him becomes potentially unpalatable.

If I were him I’d probably be more tempted to play a full Championship campaign and try and get yet another promotion on my CV.
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I think thats a fair enough assessment. As mentioned in my earlier post I wouldn't be against keeping him as he does still have something to bring to the table for us, but ideally we have identified a potential longer term replacement who is up and coming and we use this season to develop them, bring them on and hopefully we have a very good longer term replacement already in place for next season who has by then, already been with us for 12 months and is settled and part of the squad.

I don't want United to come into a situation in 12 months time where they have a huge amount of their players being OOC. We shouldn't be afraid to start evolving the squad now whilst we are a PL club again and can use that as leverage to try and pick up the best up and coming players in the football league. The easiest thing is to just keep him. The harder choice is to move him on and replace with a younger player but obviously we need to have identified that player to begin with. I would hope that our scouting team (ok Paul Mitchell then!) has a list as long as your arm for every position and eventuality and it's now a case of identifying who's available at the right financial package and who has the right temperament to want to develop and challenge for a place in the side. Not easy, but that's their job.
 
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Sean Thornton said:
Well to start there’s no maths involved. Unless you want to use his passing statistics, a football stat flawed by repeated5 yard passes in front of your back four.

His form dropped off alarmingly. Perhaps you’ve forgotten - and it’s not so long ago - of the calls to Hecky to drop him and play the youngsters? Which got us back on track. As l said, l’d rather the wages be used on someone who can be more than a squad player. He’s lost at least half a yard at least since the last PL season and pre Doyle coming in McCall was going mad it him in every game. We don’t need make do’s at the higher end of the current wage scale. He’s a luxury - if the word is used loosely - we can’t afford.

As for best player, l’d say the performances of Doyle when got in the side outshone most of what Norwood achieved when apparently he was up there with lniesta ! Or Bannan :)
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Without doubt Norwood was a vital player this season, back to his best. For, 70/80% of the season he was essential. Doyle had, I'm guessing here, maybe 10 strong games at seasons end?

After a summer break and pre-season there's every chance Norwood's back to his best.

I'd hope we have other midfield options that mean he's not an automatic starter - but think it'd be genuinely crazy to not offer Norwood a new contract. He's a leader, a superb pro, an extremely talented footballer.
 

Didn't Doyle mention that Norwood played a big part in him 'coming good'? Imo he stays on 'sensible' wages, what those are I don't know, I don't know what the finances are truly like, none of us do. But if the finances dictate we can't afford a simple 1 year deal on sensible wages for an experienced (still capable) player in the premier League, then we may as well aim to finish above Derby's total and that's it and hope we're not relegated by Christmas.
 
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