#HerGameToo

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

Our web site says
"United supports #HerGameToo in their mission to ensure that every woman continues to feel comfortable and safe at football matches, especially at Bramall Lane"

The issue about feeling comfortable and safe is very subjective. It needs to be more specific in order to tackle any problems.
For example sometimes the atmosphere at Bramall Lane is very hostile, loads of swearing and verbal threats towards the ref and opposition players.
Do some women feel uncomfortable surrounded by some verbal aggression and passion? but isn't that part of the attraction of the mens game?

I used to go regularly in the 80's and hardly saw any girls on our Kop. However these days we have loads of young girls attending our matches.
So the evidence (participation levels) suggests there isn't any significant issue regards women/ girls at matches.

Although my partner has come with me to the odd United match and she doesn't like the average Neanderthal mentality football fan.
She doesn't really like football but says she much prefers the family friendly more sedate atmosphere she's seen on TV at the womens football games.

A compromise solution could be to potentially expand the ground and have a proper strictly controlled family area with 4K CCTV where aggressive behaviour and swearing is not allowed and results in a ban from that area. This would be an area where any new or more sensitive fan should feel more comfortable.

Me, personally, as a Season Ticket holder, long time attendee, and regular away game Blade - I don't equate verbal aggression with passion.

My preference is passionate, noisy, vibrant, constant support FOR my team. I'm left cold by verbal threats AGAINST the opposition players and fans and the officials.

I know that puts me at odds with the dominant terrace culture. I can live with that. You ask - do women feel uncomfortable surrounded by some verbal aggression?

I'll stick my neck out - some will, some won't.

But, I'll also say - this man feels uncomfortable surrounded by verbal aggression.

 

[coaxingstar71]

I've just been reading the article on the club website and it's aims and to be honest I'm not sure what it's trying to achieve or at least, how it's different from what's already in place. The majority of the points seem to be that some of the groups members are going to get a free jolly to the game on Saturday , the players will wear daft bibs and there will be some promotional stuff on the scoreboard - no problem with any of that apart from most will instantly forget about it after the game. The important point seems to be to highlight reporting procedures which I assume means reporting abusive or threatening behaviour. However isn't that in place already? I think it is.
There are much more ladies attending games these days and that's great. My aunties and their daughters have had season tickets on the kop for years, they go to away games and they love it. Never once have I heard them say they've felt threatened.

Let's ask Linz as a lady who's been home and away for years, apart from the dreadul toilet experiences, her experiences of abusive and threatening behaviours at matches?

 

[Sheffsteel]

Some men find it difficult to impose and adopt a leadership style which has any effect. Some of the best bosses I have worked for in the navy have been women. And they have dealt with entire departments of institutionalised males of varying opinions and attitudes. Leadership and management is not gender specific. Take it from me.

Females like Steph Houghton? Lucy Bronze? Millie Bright? Ever played football against a female who can actually play? I have.
Physiology is one barrier. But it isn't insurmountable. Would you be able to return a serve from Serena Williams? Would you be able to ship a chin shot from (little) Nicola Adams? She'd hit you so many times with hard, accurate, directed shots you'd have GCB ringing in your ears for a week. And she's about eight stone.

I'll leave that one hanging without comment. Comparing a WSL team with a team of 16 year olds deserves its own contempt.

pommpey

I've also had several bosses, the worse was a woman but the best was also a woman. Maybe it's the experience of being a mother but in my personal experience found women to be better at multi tasking. more empathetic and better organised. Overall I've found women to be different but better than men as managers.
So would be interesting to see if this could work in a competitive male team environment, think this would have a positive effect regards attitudes.

I was comparing women internationals to 16 year old school boy internationals (not normal 16 year olds) and still say the comparison is valid based on the evidence.
However I'm aware that quoting certain facts making comparisons could make me appear disrespectful of womens achievements to date.
Also I agree Nicola Adams could whip my arse and Serena would easily beat 99.9% of all men at tennis.

 

[Freddy Dunning-Kruger]

THE SHEFFIELD UNITED FOOTBALL CLUB LIMITED gender pay gap report for 2021-22 reporting year

gender-pay-gap.service.gov.uk

In this organisation, women earn 75p for every £1 that men earn when comparing median hourly pay. Their median hourly pay is 25% lower than men’s.

Disgraceful. The club need to rectify this as soon as possible by no longer hiring women for low paid roles. #Equality

 

[Sheffsteel]

Have you ever felt distinctly unsafe and uneasy in a football crowd? I have. I'm a 16 stone, shaven headed male who many might think twice about taking on in a fist fight but I have literally considered my mortality at times. This isn't about 'make women safe - the men will look after themselves'. This is about making the entire experience safe, exciting, competitive, enjoyable and collective for men, women and kids.



I'd say we - the supporters - and the ground staff and law enforcers have an equal parts collective responsibility to cleanse stadia of negative aspects of supporterdom. This includes coke-sniffing wankers and cunts who treat the ground like their own fiefdom.

pommmpey

There's that dividing line where I'm close to feeling unsafe but 90% of the time this aggression tends be just male bravado
but you always wonder about being unlucky and being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Hence why I always try to stay away from the Bramall Lane end after the match when there's a large away following.
If there's a dodgy group of drunken fans I tend to cross the road or walk well behind them.
Basically being a regular during the hooligan era of the 80's I try to keep my wits about me to foresee trouble and act accordingly.

Me, personally, as a Season Ticket holder, long time attendee, and regular away game Blade - I don't equate verbal aggression with passion.

My preference is passionate, noisy, vibrant, constant support FOR my team. I'm left cold by verbal threats AGAINST the opposition players and fans and the officials.

I know that puts me at odds with the dominant terrace culture. I can live with that. You ask - do women feel uncomfortable surrounded by some verbal aggression?

I'll stick my neck out - some will, some won't.

But, I'll also say - this man feels uncomfortable surrounded by verbal aggression.

Good point....my memories of our games when the atmosphere is really good
is where the ref makes some terrible decision against us or the opposition have a villain playing for them like a Gary Madine type.

Then I hear constant bile and vitriol shouted towards the ref or towards their player.
I put it down as bravado and it's all part of the theatre, we do tend to play better when our fans become angry
and the opposition players will say they found Bramall Lane hostile and intimidating.

I've observed that some season ticket holders near me are disproportionately aggressive, but I've noticed it's bravado not genuine aggression.
It's made me wonder if they have frustration and resentment in their lives and this builds up inside them like a pressure cooker.
Then they go to the match, slag off and abuse anyone they can think of....in order to let off some steam...it's almost like therapy and makes them feel better.

 

[robbiez666]

Does the campaign include making football clubs forums places women might feel comfortable visiting?

 

[robbiez666]

Me, personally, as a Season Ticket holder, long time attendee, and regular away game Blade - I don't equate verbal aggression with passion.

My preference is passionate, noisy, vibrant, constant support FOR my team. I'm left cold by verbal threats AGAINST the opposition players and fans and the officials.

I know that puts me at odds with the dominant terrace culture. I can live with that. You ask - do women feel uncomfortable surrounded by some verbal aggression?

I'll stick my neck out - some will, some won't.

But, I'll also say - this man feels uncomfortable surrounded by verbal aggression.

The older I get, the less comfortable I am with it. The more I'm aware of bad things that could happen around me. The worse my experience.

 

[HillmortonBlade]

Lady HB has come to be uneasy attending away games due to a perception (I think real) of increased trouble at them. There again, so have I in truth, so there’s a sort of equality there. Improving the match experience for all can only be a good thing. Not that I want it sanitised.

I also enjoy match fishing. Very few woman participate. But there is a level of demand to do so that isn’t matched by the “facilities” available. There’s work to be done in other sports.

 

[Montymagic]

Maybe we could stop singing that Shoreham boys song...Jesus wept that makes my skin crawl.

Couldn't imagine sitting next to my daughter/niece with that fucking awful song being sung aloud.

Granted it does seem to drop of a cliff towards the wife part, only the knuckle dragging virgins carry in singing it would seem.

 

[robbiez666]

Maybe we could stop singing that Shoreham boys song...Jesus wept that makes my skin crawl.

Couldn't imagine sitting next to my daughter/niece with that fucking awful song being sung aloud.

Granted it does seem to drop of a cliff towards the wife part, only the knuckle dragging virgins carry in singing it would seem.

I would give this a thousand likes.

Watched the cup games on the BBC and I'm genuinely embarrassed to be a fan when it starts up.

 

[pommpey]

I also enjoy match fishing. Very few woman participate. But there is a level of demand to do so that isn’t matched by the “facilities” available. There’s work to be done in other sports.

Interesting perspective. The percentage split in match, coarse, fly, carp and sea fishing is broadly similar at 90%/10% in favour of men (in many cases even more, my angling association has possibly three active female members from an all-up total of over 400). It's a predatory sport, yet so are gun sports yet the split is less so. Do we have #HerGame movements in that sport? Will it bring more women into angling? Nope.

One of my former work colleagues is a female English sea angling international team member. She travels far and wide with the team, wins awards and trophies and it attracts all sorts of sponsorship and grant funding. Yet, according to her, they sometimes struggle to even make a full team.

Why? Is it a 'men's sport'? Not according to her. She's perfectly capable of lugging her kit, setting up, strategising her game and hauling in some pretty impressive species, including an impressive fucking great blue shark once. But the attraction and attitude toward it is distinctly cool in conversation with her female friends. Many are disgusted and some are appalled. Many are also baffled at how she can find such a demanding, 'dirty' sport so appealing. Some even say 'ooh, that's a 'mans' sport'. Really?

pommpey

 

[Sheffsteel]

But, I'll also say - this man feels uncomfortable surrounded by verbal aggression.

Another point is the effect of excessive alcohol.
Is there a correlation between alcohol, verbal aggression and atmosphere.

The Qatar World Cup received bad press when they announced the alcohol ban.
However the feedback from most journalists and YouTubers was that it was the friendliest/safest, most family orientated tournament ever.
Many commented that the lack of drunk fans was a massive contributory factor regards it's success.

Britain does seem to have this culture of "one must be really drunk to enjoy anything".

 

[pommpey]

Disgraceful. The club need to rectify this as soon as possible by no longer hiring women for low paid roles. #Equality

How reflective of 'actuality' are those statistics?

Bear with me. SUFC has a larger median male playing staff cohort, many if not all are on large wage contracts based on male game attendance figures and male game watching figures on television. Bonus structures and sponsorship/image rights also bolster that as to management and coaching wage levels, scaleable by male game revenue. In short also, women will not sell as many Nike football boots to an audience as male as the current demographic shows. Time, however, will change this.

Paying a male differently from a female for exactly the same job under the same terms and conditions is against the Equal Pay Act 1970. However, how full is Bramall Lane on a matchday when the women's team are playing and is Oliver Norwood's all up contract and sponsorship package the same as say Tamara Wilcock's or Rebecca Raynor's?

'Who?' I hear many say.

And my point is made.

pommpey

 

[Linz]

Let's ask Linz as a lady who's been home and away for years, apart from the dreadul toilet experiences, her experiences of abusive and threatening behaviours at matches?

Bless you

Ultimately, my experience is clouded by the fact that I am a gobshite who can be routinely found administering robust criticism of the officials so I am, on occasion, guilty of what some would consider to be abusive and threatening behaviour.

But also by the fact that, until this season, my Nannan has been going to the football since the 40s, including all the dicey games in the 70s where she got hit by fireworks. So going to football has always been equal opportunities in our family.

The worst I've personally had is from some fat cunt United fans at Forest who were so pissed and coked up that they could barely stand and who decided to celebrate a goal by diving forward onto me. When pushed off by Foxy, their only response what that I "shunt even be at t'match" before they fucked off half way through the first half, never to return.

I like to think we're streetwise enough to give any bother a swerve and you tend to get a nose for these things and I can't honestly ever recall being involved in any aggro with away fans.

 

[Linz]

Does the campaign include making football clubs forums places women might feel comfortable visiting?

You have raised this point before and honestly, in some respects, I think it does women a disservice.

Are we shrinking violets who need to be protected from shit banter and the occasional picture of breasts?

I would have to dedicate a full time job to this forum to ensure it is "family friendly" or a "safe space" so I don't. It's the internet. People here are adults. They can read what they like and react to it how they like - with disagreement, mortal affront, amusement or choosing to ignore it. It isn't my job to stop people being offended, or censor people so that they moderate their opinions.

Just like being at the match, or in a pub, or at work, I would encourage any female posters to "take up space".

 

[Eza Blade]

The “lock” on the Kop bog used to be an outstretched leg and foot if you ever had the misfortune of having to have a “sit down visit”.

That’s a seriously traumatic experience

 

[HillmortonBlade]

Interesting perspective. The percentage split in match, coarse, fly, carp and sea fishing is broadly similar at 90%/10% in favour of men (in many cases even more, my angling association has possibly three active female members from an all-up total of over 400). It's a predatory sport, yet so are gun sports yet the split is less so. Do we have #HerGame movements in that sport? Will it bring more women into angling? Nope.

One of my former work colleagues is a female English sea angling international team member. She travels far and wide with the team, wins awards and trophies and it attracts all sorts of sponsorship and grant funding. Yet, according to her, they sometimes struggle to even make a full team.

Why? Is it a 'men's sport'? Not according to her. She's perfectly capable of lugging her kit, setting up, strategising her game and hauling in some pretty impressive species, including an impressive fucking great blue shark once. But the attraction and attitude toward it is distinctly cool in conversation with her female friends. Many are disgusted and some are appalled. Many are also baffled at how she can find such a demanding, 'dirty' sport so appealing. Some even say 'ooh, that's a 'mans' sport'. Really?

pommpey

Agreed, a #heranglingtoo won’t achieve much.. I’m a more practical person and can’t help but feel just a few changes will open the sport to more people. On the commercial lakes I fish on, when there is an even path laid to quality pegs, more disabled anglers are there. On the really commercialised match venues (I know, not everyone’s cup of tea) where there are toilets, cafes etc, more families and women fishing. Not that I’m saying we should concrete over every venue.. but in those places set up for matches and commercialised? Maybe.

 

[Torrix1889]

* gets comfortable and searches Google for that "popcorn" GIF *

 

[jt64]

Disgraceful. The club need to rectify this as soon as possible by no longer hiring women for low paid roles. #Equality

Can we not just let (insert first team scapegoat of the week here)'s contract expire, then rehire him to clean the Kop bogs on minimum wage? Kate in the ticket office won't get any more in the pay packet, but it'll help fix the median pay?

 

[robbiez666]

You have raised this point before and honestly, in some respects, I think it does women a disservice.

Are we shrinking violets who need to be protected from shit banter and the occasional picture of breasts?

I would have to dedicate a full time job to this forum to ensure it is "family friendly" or a "safe space" so I don't. It's the internet. People here are adults. They can read what they like and react to it how they like - with disagreement, mortal affront, amusement or choosing to ignore it. It isn't my job to stop people being offended, or censor people so that they moderate their opinions.

Just like being at the match, or in a pub, or at work, I would encourage any female posters to "take up space".

All fair points.

I do think there needs to be more of an onus on fans (whether that's on a forum, in a pub or at the game) to be conscious about what they're posting and how someone who isn't a white straight male man (generalisation, obviously) might view it.

Moderators shouldn't have to (and certainly don't have the time and I doubt the inclination) police everything we say. We all probably cross lines at some point. The question, I think, is whether we're helping to make these spaces, whether physical or virtual, welcoming to everyone.

 

[Linz]

All fair points.

I do think there needs to be more of an onus on fans (whether that's on a forum, in a pub or at the game) to be conscious about what they're posting and how someone who isn't a white straight male man (generalisation, obviously) might view it.

Moderators shouldn't have to (and certainly don't have the time and I doubt the inclination) police everything we say. We all probably cross lines at some point. The question, I think, is whether we're helping to make these spaces, whether physical or virtual, welcoming to everyone.

Ultimately, I want the least amount of aggro to deal with for an easy life so it would be nice if people perhaps thought a little harder about the way their posts come across sometimes.

However, you only have to look at Mumsnet - which is absolutely savage - to see that women are just as capable as being awful on the internet as blokes.

I think what puts more people off, and leads to accusations of cliqueyness, is the in-jokes and forum lore that have sprung up in all the years we've been online. What newcomers need to appreciate is that this is a long running community in which people spend a lot of time and just like in a pub or club, there's an etiquette to adhere to. And what looks like harsh words between combatants is often just banter between old friends or acquaintances.

 

[Snake]

I don't get it, I honestly don't. Perhaps I'm a 60s/70s dinosaur but the opportunities (as they quite rightly should be) and match experience for females (and males for that matter) is infinitely better than it was way back in the day.

Back in the 70s going to a football match (and standing on 'our patch' with the Shoreham boys) literally used to be taking your life into your hands. I was a teenager back then, not too many girls were there - and the ones that were, were routinely 'felt up' as we surged and scored a goal. When I look back it was quite shocking really - not condoning it btw but it was the culture back then. As I said, times have changed and it is (quite rightly) an infinitely better experience for match attending females now.

I took my daughters with me to the games back in the 90s and early 2000s. They sat on the kop with me. They heard bad language - it didn't hurt them, it's part of growing up and experiencing real life. What is it about today? Everything has got to have an hash tag, or label or 'initiative to promote xy and z'. Fuck it - get off your computer and social media in general from time to time and learn how to live in the real world with real 'life' social skills.

The only thing I would really criticise is the female toilet situation. Kin ell, my daughters would cross their legs and grimace rather than stand in that fucking queue to sit on a trap red hot from the previous numerous occupants and full of shit and piss. Yes we have troughs, not a problem, we stick our cock out.... they can't do that - ffs improve the bogs and give the girls something tangible to improve their match experience.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

I don't get it, I honestly don't. Perhaps I'm a 60s/70s dinosaur but the opportunities (as they quite rightly should be) and match experience for females (and males for that matter) is infinitely better than it was way back in the day.

Back in the 70s going to a football match (and standing on 'our patch' with the Shoreham boys) literally used to be taking your life into your hands. I was a teenager back then, not too many girls were there - and the ones that were, were routinely 'felt up' as we surged and scored a goal. When I look back it was quite shocking really - not condoning it btw but it was the culture back then. As I said, times have changed and it is (quite rightly) an infinitely better experience for match attending females now.

I took my daughters with me to the games back in the 90s and early 2000s. They sat on the kop with me. They heard bad language - it didn't hurt them, it's part of growing up and experiencing real life. What is it about today? Everything has got to have an hash tag, or label or 'initiative to promote xy and z'. Fuck it - get off your computer and social media in general from time to time and learn how to live in the real world with real 'life' social skills.

The only thing I would really criticise is the female toilet situation. Kin ell, my daughters would cross their legs and grimace rather than stand in that fucking queue to sit on a trap red hot from the previous numerous occupants and full of shit and piss. Yes we have troughs, not a problem, we stick our cock out.... they can't do that - ffs improve the bogs and give the girls something tangible to improve their match experience.

It's just about continuing improvement isn't it? Those girls getting assaulted on The Shoreham in the 60s/70s could easily have been told it was OK because their fan experience was infinitely better than it was 30 years before them.

Just because there's been an improvement doesn't mean you have to stop improving.

 

[Linz]

The only thing I would really criticise is the female toilet situation. Kin ell, my daughters would cross their legs and grimace rather than stand in that fucking queue to sit on a trap red hot from the previous numerous occupants and full of shit and piss. Yes we have troughs, not a problem, we stick our cock out.... they can't do that - ffs improve the bogs and give the girls something tangible to improve their match experience.

I mean, not to go into too much gory detail, but for one week out of every four for most of us, it's a little bit more grim than that...

 

[robbiez666]

I took my daughters with me to the games back in the 90s and early 2000s. They sat on the kop with me. They heard bad language - it didn't hurt them, it's part of growing up and experiencing real life. What is it about today? Everything has got to have an hash tag, or label or 'initiative to promote xy and z'. Fuck it - get off your computer and social media in general from time to time and learn how to live in the real world with real 'life' social skills.

I think the point is that not all girls/women (or men for that matter) are comfortable with an often hostile and abusive atmosphere. Not to mention some of the songs.

 

[coaxingstar71]

You have raised this point before and honestly, in some respects, I think it does women a disservice.

Are we shrinking violets who need to be protected from shit banter and the occasional picture of breasts?

I would have to dedicate a full time job to this forum to ensure it is "family friendly" or a "safe space" so I don't. It's the internet. People here are adults. They can read what they like and react to it how they like - with disagreement, mortal affront, amusement or choosing to ignore it. It isn't my job to stop people being offended, or censor people so that they moderate their opinions.

Just like being at the match, or in a pub, or at work, I would encourage any female posters to "take up space".

I wish this view could be applied across every media and social media platform.

 

[pommpey]

It's just about continuing improvement isn't it? Those girls getting assaulted on The Shoreham in the 60s/70s could easily have been told it was OK because their fan experience was infinitely better than it was 30 years before them.

Just because there's been an improvement doesn't mean you have to stop improving.

Improving - how, exactly?

True, the game is a better fan experience than it was thirty years ago and thereby thirty years prior to that. In particular for women, I'd wager.

But this is just box-ticking, virtue-signalling cake piping. It may fulfil a requirement, it may make the organisers feel as though they are making some or other marginal gains or even (spits) 'raise awareness'.

But what the fuck more do we need to have our awareness raised about anywhere? Is it the remit of straight-white-males (who this always, wearyingly seems to be targetted at) to fix the fucking unfixable and make the women's game as massive as the men's? How exactly do we fill Bramall Lane on a women's matchday with 30k full-paying supporters? You can't force people to watch what they don't want to watch. How many people come to the reserves and academy games?

Furthermore, if female sanitary conditions are shit in the ground this needs addressing by the club secretary downwards as an absolute priority. It's a functional responsibility as much as it is to provide disabled access and safe routes in and out of the stadium. It's got fuck all to do with #HerGame, more to do with someone not doing the rounds and listening and considering the situation of all supporters, male, female, disabled, kids ... the lot.

pommpey

 

[shorehamview]

….I am a gobshite….

Can’t say I’ve ever noticed.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

Improving - how, exactly?

True, the game is a better fan experience than it was thirty years ago and thereby thirty years prior to that. In particular for women, I'd wager.

But this is just box-ticking, virtue-signalling cake piping. It may fulfil a requirement, it may make the organisers feel as though they are making some or other marginal gains or even (spits) 'raise awareness'.

But what the fuck more do we need to have our awareness raised about anywhere? Is it the remit of straight-white-males (who this always, wearyingly seems to be targetted at) to fix the fucking unfixable and make the women's game as massive as the men's? How exactly do we fill Bramall Lane on a women's matchday with 30k full-paying supporters? You can't force people to watch what they don't want to watch. How many people come to the reserves and academy games?

Furthermore, if female sanitary conditions are shit in the ground this needs addressing by the club secretary downwards as an absolute priority. It's a functional responsibility as much as it is to provide disabled access and safe routes in and out of the stadium. It's got fuck all to do with #HerGame, more to do with someone not doing the rounds and listening and considering the situation of all supporters, male, female, disabled, kids ... the lot.

pommpey

Long 'un. Are you asking me how the experience of female fans could be improved?

One less misogynistic comment within their earshot.

 

[pommpey]

Long 'un. Are you asking me how the experience of female fans could be improved?

One less misogynistic comment within their earshot.

Yep. And one less 'paki'/'yid'/'nigger'/'[insert countless hideous comments]' utterance from the great unwashed which we ALL hear. Let's also include 'you fat bastard', 'bald cunt' and 'get your tits out for the lads' which is the lingua franca of a thankfully diminishing lesser-politically aligned cohort who happen to support the same team as we do. Should we tolerate this? No. Should groundstaff do anything about it? You be the judge of that. Moreover can anyone be offended by any of the above? Yes.

Will having a #HerGame event change any of that?

Absolutely not. Just like taking the knee didn't sweep racism in football away too.

pommpey