West Ham's "Compensation" money..

[super_pig]

If the owners intend to shaft a club they can. If McCabe doesn't intend to shaft ius then it could be that the seperation of the ground from the club is as good an insurance policy that can be bought. If he does, we're in trouble.

that's what i'm worried about though.. he has previous with the hotel

 

[Sothall_Blade]

Agreed. McCabe often goes on about what he's spent (even though I thought that came with the territory - he certainly doesn't contribute anything else) but I've never seen a clear or believable explanation of where the income has gone. Even since we lost the parachute payments we've continually been at the top of the attendance tables and I don't know anyone who has sold as many of their better players as we have.

How much does it cost to build a 4-star luxury hotel?
How much does it cost to buy a Chinese football club?
How much does it cost to buy an Hungarian football club and their land?
How much does it cost to buy a fitness club in Staines, Essex?

None of them are cheap I wouldn't have thought. Whose money bought them?
Sheffield United's money or Kevin McCabe's money? Or are they the same thing?
Who owns them now? Can't they be sold to recoup some (if not all) of the investment?
If they were sold, who would get the money? Sheffield United, Kevin McCabe or are they the same thing?
It's all so confusing to a non-accountant but money was spent on land and property, bricks and mortar.
The land and buildings are still there so why do they seemingly have no value?

 

[Balham]

Agreed. McCabe often goes on about what he's spent (even though I thought that came with the territory - he certainly doesn't contribute anything else) but I've never seen a clear or believable explanation of where the income has gone. Even since we lost the parachute payments we've continually been at the top of the attendance tables and I don't know anyone who has sold as many of their better players as we have.

2009: turnover (income) £32.5m*, wages £24.9m
2010: turnover £20.9m, wages £19.4m
2011: turnover £17.6m, wages £17.8m
2012: turnover (est) £12.0m, wages (est) £15.0m

That is where the income has gone, on unsustainable salaries for players not worth the money they're being paid. The figures above are before running costs (non-salary) at the Lane, which have been between £6m and £13m in the past five years.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

2009: turnover (income) £32.5m*, wages £24.9m
2010: turnover £20.9m, wages £19.4m
2011: turnover £17.6m, wages £17.8m
2012: turnover (est) £12.0m, wages (est) £15.0m

That is where the income has gone, on unsustainable salaries for players not worth the money they're being paid. The figures above are before running costs (non-salary) at the Lane, which have been between £6m and £13m in the past five years.

Interesting figures but according to that we should have made a profit of £5.9M before "running costs":-

2009 32.50 24.90 7.60
2010 20.90 19.40 1.50
2011 17.60 17.80 -0.20
2012 12.00 15.00 -3.00
Total 83.00 77.10 5.90

Do you know what these running costs (average £9.5M a year) are made up of?
We always seem to be reading that the vast majority of any clubs expenditure is the wage bill but ours is only about 67% of our total costs?
Would expenditure on things like building hotels be included in running costs?
If so, now the hotel is built we should have that as an asset shouldn't we?
The money invested in it hasn't just disappeared. Has it?

Also, Is the money we have so far received from West Ham included in the Turnover/income figure?

 

[Balham]

Interesting figures but according to that we should have made a profit of £5.9M before "running costs":-

2009 32.50 24.90 7.60
2010 20.90 19.40 1.50
2011 17.60 17.80 -0.20
2012 12.00 15.00 -3.00
Total 83.00 77.10 5.90

Do you know what these running costs (average £9.5M a year) are made up of?
We always seem to be reading that the vast majority of any clubs expenditure is the wage bill but ours is only about 67% of our total costs?
Would expenditure on things like building hotels be included in running costs?
If so, now the hotel is built we should have that as an asset shouldn't we?
The money invested in it hasn't just disappeared. Has it?

Also, Is the money we have so far received from West Ham included in the Turnover/income figure?

Running costs will include everything from the Lucozade in the Shirecliffe vending machines to the paper the tickets are printed on so a figure of millions isn't unreasonable.

It also crucially includes the amortisation of players' registration fees and depreciation of fixed assets. Footballers are treated like any other asset by the club's accountants; the cost is spread over the length of their contract and a proportion is charged to the accounts each year. Similarly, the cost of building a new site (eg Shirecliffe), improving the ground (eg Bramall Lane end), buying new computers or buying company cars will be spread over a number of years.

The West Ham figure was classed as an "exceptional item" and isn't included in the figures above. Similarly, though, when we "sold" the hotel and business centre, we had to adjust the value on the books downwards by £10m, this was an "exceptional item" too.

 

[alcoblade]

Fact is, it's all in the accounts. The issue isn't that any money has disappeared, it's that we've spent it in all the wrong places on all the wrong things.

Oh for the day that the big contracts have expired and the debt is written off. It will be lovely when the big issues of the day are about football.

UTB

 

[metalblade]

You are an idiot.

Just because it's United, doesn't mean it's good. Just because it's Wednesday, doesn't mean it's bad. It's that kind of attitude that has lead us to not question these losses, which has lead us to League 1, without a ground, and in debt to a property developer. But still, it's United, so it's better we bury our head in the sand to what is happening at our club.

New here I guess Starblade, say anything a little bit bad and you get told to go back to S6 etc....... make a post that don't shed McCabe in a good light and it will soon be lost as they muddy the waters and change the subject, the thread soon degenerates into name calling ................ you will get used to it LOL

 

[alcoblade]

New here I guess Starblade, say anything a little bit bad and you get told to go back to S6 etc....... make a post that don't shed McCabe in a good light and it will soon be lost as they muddy the waters and change the subject, the thread soon degenerates into name calling ................ you will get used to it LOL

And you will enter a thread, full of criticisms of McCabe, saying "make a post that don't shed McCabe in a good light and it will soon be lost as they muddy the waters".

I try really hard not to view you as full of shit. It's next to impossible.

UTB

 

[metalblade]

See what I mean straight away PMSL

 

[alcoblade]

See what I mean straight away PMSL

Ahh, the old chestnut. "I've made 500 posts along the same line just to get a rise from another message board poster."

And all along I thought it was because you were a twat.

UTB

 

[metalblade]

LMFAO keep em coming

 

[Sheff de party]

ah metalblade. how i miss when u dont post. you have an uncanny ability to make me disagree with u more and more every time you write something. i dont think ur an idiot or anything and you're entitled to your opinion, but i could write what you know about football on this:

keep it coming. its the only reason i come back

 

[TarquinDelouche]

New here I guess Starblade, say anything a little bit bad and you get told to go back to S6 etc....... make a post that don't shed McCabe in a good light and it will soon be lost as they muddy the waters and change the subject, the thread soon degenerates into name calling ................ you will get used to it LOL

I don't want to get dragged into it, but I'd just like to point out that the name-calling started when starblade referred to judge as an idiot.

 

[metalblade]

I don't want to get dragged into it, but I'd just like to point out that the name-calling started when starblade referred to judge as an idiot.

Er no Judge suggested Starblade was a pig ................ all very predictable, next tactic will be a biggest Blade competition no doubt.

 

[TarquinDelouche]

Er no Judge suggested Starblade was a pig ................ all very predictable, next tactic will be a biggest Blade competition no doubt.

No he didn't. He suggested that what starblade was saying was what Wednesday fans would say. starblade then flat-out said judge was an idiot.

 

[mpjacko]

Maybe someone who knows more about this could answer this question.

Since all the money is owed to KM, could he simply say, enough is enough and put the club into liquidation (is that the right word) missing out administration completely stating the club has no assets left. Since he has changed the deeds of the ground into his name, can he then simply sell the ground to cover the amount he has lost by propping up united.

Just a thought

 

[geekblade]

View attachment 5237

Worth.Every.Penny

Crap where's the railway gone! j/k

 

[Balham]

Maybe someone who knows more about this could answer this question.

Since all the money is owed to KM, could he simply say, enough is enough and put the club into liquidation (is that the right word) missing out administration completely stating the club has no assets left. Since he has changed the deeds of the ground into his name, can he then simply sell the ground to cover the amount he has lost by propping up united.

Just a thought

FFS. The deeds of the ground ARE NOT IN MCCABE'S NAME. They belong to Sheffield United plc. In order to liquidate, they would need to be sold to satisfy the creditors, the majority of which is McCabe. He'd make more money selling the club and the assets than just the assets, particularly when you take into account the administrators/liquidators' fees.

It would also be illegal for McCabe to remove the assets from the company before liquidating it. It would also likely reduce the amount owed by West Ham - would McCabe really want to do that?

 

[StarBlade]

I'm sorry to the Judge if any offence was caused, but I was annoyed myself at the questioning of the reasons for my opinions. Heat of the moment to call someone an idiot, so I'll leave it at that and offer my apology.

 

[super_pig]

FFS. The deeds of the ground ARE NOT IN MCCABE'S NAME. They belong to Sheffield United plc. In order to liquidate, they would need to be sold to satisfy the creditors, the majority of which is McCabe. He'd make more money selling the club and the assets than just the assets, particularly when you take into account the administrators/liquidators' fees.

It would also be illegal for McCabe to remove the assets from the company before liquidating it. It would also likely reduce the amount owed by West Ham - would McCabe really want to do that?

heh.. don't you just love legal mumbo jumbo .. i'll stick to C++ it's a lot simpler

 

[Selly]

heh.. don't you just love legal mumbo jumbo .. i'll stick to C++ it's a lot simpler

Until you get to pointers, I f**king hated pointers...

Now COBOL, theres a language I can get on board with...

 

[super_pig]

heh.. funny some people get them some people don't
COBOL?? i hear the banks still use it?? haven't done it in years.. structured goto's and all that
sorry we're getting OT

 

[Kenilworth]

Until you get to pointers, I f**king hated pointers...

Now COBOL, theres a language I can get on board with...

Have you tried the LOCKS version?

 

[Sothall_Blade]

Fact is, it's all in the accounts. The issue isn't that any money has disappeared, it's that we've spent it in all the wrong places on all the wrong things.

Oh for the day that the big contracts have expired and the debt is written off. It will be lovely when the big issues of the day are about football.

UTB

The answers may be all in the accounts but I'm not an accountant and I'm afraid I don't get it.

How much did the hotel cost to build? Who paid for it to be built? Who owns it now?
How much is it worth now? Why did we have adjust the value of it downwards by £10M?
If Sheffield United still own it? Why can't Sheffield United sell it rather than players to raise funds and help us through the current financial "crisis"?

Where do Copthorne/Millenium Hotels fit in? Did they pay anything towards the cost of building it?
If not what is their contribution?

 

[JohnDenver]

The answers may be all in the accounts but I'm not an accountant and I'm afraid I don't get it.

How much did the hotel cost to build? Who paid for it to be built? Who owns it now?
How much is it worth now? Why did we have adjust the value of it downwards by £10M?
If Sheffield United still own it? Why can't Sheffield United sell it rather than players to raise funds and help us through the current financial "crisis"?

Where do Copthorne/Millenium Hotels fit in? Did they pay anything towards the cost of building it?
If not what is their contribution?

How much it cost I can't recall, but Scarborough own it. I suspect it was transferred to them make the football club more saleable, and also (assuming it's a long term money spinner), to help reduce what's owed to McCabe in the long term.

There was talk about the possibility of returning it to the club later, but I can't see that if it helps repay what McCabe is owed.

 

[super_pig]

we'll just have to trust the guy
which is a bit of an ask atm granted

 

[JohnDenver]

we'll just have to trust the guy
which is a bit of an ask atm granted

Sums just about everything up.

 

[Balham]

The answers may be all in the accounts but I'm not an accountant and I'm afraid I don't get it.

How much did the hotel cost to build? Who paid for it to be built? Who owns it now?

I don't know the answer to the first part but I think it was c£20m. It would have been paid for by Sheffield United plc using funds borrowed from a bank (likely to be HBOS).

The hotel was transferred to Scarborough in 2009 for £1 plus all outstanding debt (around £15m, I think).

How much is it worth now? Why did we have adjust the value of it downwards by £10M?

It's worth less than we thought but as it's on Scarborough's books I'm not sure what the actual value is. We had to revalue it when it was sold as its value on the books was higher than the sale price. As we accountants like everything to balance out, the £10m difference had to be charged to United.

If Sheffield United still own it? Why can't Sheffield United sell it rather than players to raise funds and help us through the current financial "crisis"?

We don't, so we can't. As I've noted above, when we did sell it, its market price was significantly lower than the book value so it inhibited our ability to buy players. There's no reason this wouldn't be exactly the same scenario today if we had kept hold of it.

Where do Copthorne/Millenium Hotels fit in? Did they pay anything towards the cost of building it?
If not what is their contribution?

I think they are the tenant company; quite how much control they have I don't know. They will have paid nothing towards the building but will be paying a rent/management fee to Scarborough. Their contribution is their knowledge and expertise in running hotels.

 

[Micalijo]

How much it cost I can't recall, but Scarborough own it. I suspect it was transferred to them make the football club more saleable, and also (assuming it's a long term money spinner), to help reduce what's owed to McCabe in the long term.

There was talk about the possibility of returning it to the club later, but I can't see that if it helps repay what McCabe is owed.

It was transferred to Sacrborough so our beloved chairman can get the annual fee off Copthorne. Copthorne pay say £500k per annum to use the building and they retain any profit over and above the fee paid to McCabe.

The hotel was always in a separate subsidiary so to be fair any income from it could have been channelled straight up through the wider group to loss making Scarborough companies without touching SUFC Ltd anyway.

 

[puppet]

mccabe has suggested and built on two corners of the bramall lane end in the name of sheffield united and now owns both, despite them being painted as money-spinners for team building.