email from club - NO MORE TICKETS ON SALE IN KOP - standing & wrong seat usage

[bladesmanluke]

This for me has now put a new Kop right at the top of our priorities, above a training ground.

 

[BushBlade]

The money aspect is always, and has always been the excuse for everything at the club, forever.

When we want to, we can find money. This would be no different.

A new stand will be an investment and produce a return for 50/100+ years if done right. The current temporary solution has lasted 30 years, and I can’t see it being replaced in the next 20.

It would cut our capacity during building significantly. But we are already having our capacity cut with the existing stand!!

Diverging slightly. All the old great terraces across England have been knocked down and replaced. Anfield, Maine Road, Highbury, Villa Park etc. with the exception of two who have had some seats bolted on and a new tin roof.

Both happen to be in the same city. Which says a lot.

Two of those had to move to a new stadium though. As did Southampton, Boro, Sunderland, Derby. Essentially, we have three options
1. Develop BL piecemeal and have lower capacity for a season or so whilst we’re doing so.
2. Do a Spurs and build a new stadium on the old site. Would necessitate moving to another ground for a couple of seasons, like Spurs moved to Wembley.
3. Sell the site to part fund the purchase of land and build a new stadium.

I’ve no idea where the money would come from for options 1 and 2 unless we’re in the PL. Even then it would be a struggle.

 

[Rodley]

Well so far, we’ve had the ideas of “let us do what we want”, “tell them to fuck off”, “change to safe standing” or kick loads of others out of their seats in other places people aren’t standing to create the problem…

So small and manageable might be pushing it.

The other thing they are trying has caused the outrage.

I think we can both agree how the club have responded hasn’t worked. I’m assuming there’s a specialist in post at the club who is tasked to manage this.

 

[nopigfansintown]

The SAG have been after the club re the Kop for over a decade. This has been in regards to entrance egress, overcrowding and other factors.
For me we should've added more turnstiles and gates on John Street and Shoreham street to proactively remove some of these problems. A good use of Premier League money you might say.

After "flare gate" at the 3-1 Lane derby we had the whole of G and H shut off for some years. The club did everything that could be expected to get it reopened, including spending a a lot of money on a state of the art CCTV system. This was frustrated for, in my view, an unreasonable amount of time.

A few years ago this was followed by the Kop: every seat on the Kop can be watched, every person on the Kop seen committing any crime or tresspass of ground regulations (including not sitting in their seat) With this being known, it begs the question how this situation has arisen? The authorities and SUFC have all the tools at their disposable to police the situation - and far more than almost any other club (at SUFC's expense, may I reiterate). This is the thanks you get! The club deserves credit for being proactive about this by the way - it was the choice of the club.

The actions of SAG and SCC/SYP are clearly disproportionate. There is very little that SUFC could've done that they haven't already done. The problem is a problem at all grounds, not just at SUFC. SUFC have hired man power and paid for technology that go above and beyond what can reasonably be expected

It makes me hark back to the Westfield corner. The stand was built to comply with the asks of SYP and SAG only for them to backtrack and change their requirements. Essentially so they didn't have to police away fans .

I'd like to think that SUFC will draw a line here. Get lawyered up and fight this disproportionate action as a matter of urgency. The club cannot sustain this revenue loss.

 

[Rodley]

The SAG have been after the club re the Kop for over a decade. This has been in regards to entrance egress, overcrowding and other factors.
For me we should've added more turnstiles and gates on John Street and Shoreham street to proactively remove some of these problems. A good use of Premier League money you might say.

After "flare gate" at the 3-1 Lane derby we had the whole of G and H shut off for some years. The club did everything that could be expected to get it reopened, including spending a a lot of money on a state of the art CCTV system. This was frustrated for, in my view, an unreasonable amount of time.

A few years ago this was followed by the Kop: every seat on the Kop can be watched, every person on the Kop seen committing any crime or tresspass of ground regulations (including not sitting in their seat) With this being known, it begs the question how this situation has arisen? The authorities and SUFC have all the tools at their disposable to police the situation - and far more than almost any other club (at SUFC's expense, may I reiterate). This is the thanks you get! The club deserves credit for being proactive about this by the way - it was the choice of the club.

The actions of SAG and SCC/SYP are clearly disproportionate. There is very little that SUFC could've done that they haven't already done. The problem is a problem at all grounds, not just at SUFC. SUFC have hired man power and paid for technology that go above and beyond what can reasonably be expected

It makes me hark back to the Westfield corner. The stand was built to comply with the asks of SYP and SAG only for them to backtrack and change their requirements. Essentially so they didn't have to police away fans .

I'd like to think that SUFC will draw a line here. Get lawyered up and fight this disproportionate action as a matter of urgency. The club cannot sustain this revenue loss.

100% agree.

How much revenue are we going to lose on matchday ticket sales now? There’s your budget for a good QC specialising in Licensing to go into bat.

 

[FB98]

I'm sorry to say that this has been a long time coming.
Prior to me moving to Australia, I had a season ticket in the middle of the Kop and held the same seat since seating was introduced.
I would sit with my dad.
My Mum would sit at the back of the Kop in the aisle seat to allow her to get in and out easier (Mobility issues). Initially she sat with my younger sister and then more recently my 2 children (currently aged 10/12 so the eldest would have been about 5 when first attending) shared a season ticket and sat with her.
Most of the time there wasn't much of an issue with a handful of blokes/younger blokes standing in the gangway/aisle (not anywhere near their allocated seats). However, as time went on or there was a big game with a higher attendance, the group at the back got bigger and bigger. This led to neither my Mum nor my kids being able to see any of the game, even when my kids stood on their seat to try and see.
When I asked the group to move/have consideration for others I was told "Fuck Off!" or "try and make me move you cunt!"
The stewards at the time were asked to do something about it but I was told "can't do anything mate"
The one time that I did something about it, by standing in front of the group with my kid in my arms so that he could see and, in the process, blocking the view of some of the blokes that were stood in the gangway, causing them to get aggressive/threatening towards me, I was threatened with being ejected from the ground for causing a disturbance by the same stewards that "can't do anything about it mate".
As a result, my boys ended up sitting with me in the middle of the Kop and I was able to pick them up to see the action as others around were standing. My 6'3 Dad moved to the back and struggled to see over the crowd. My 5'7 mum still had no chance.
A lot of people have missed the point of the message sent out by the club. The issue isn't standing up, as we all do it with each attack, bad challenge, exciting bit of action. This is fine if you are in your allocated seat.
The issue is the ever-increasing numbers of blokes/young blokes who think that the back of the Kop is their own personal terrace with no regards for anyone inconvenienced by them. The corrupt SCC and the safety advisory group arent the problem. The "supporters" causing the issue in the first place are!

I have zero sympathy with a 5"7 women who chose the back or the KOP not being able to see? Isn't it blindingly obvious the back of the KOP isn't an area for a partially disabled women with 10 & 12 year old kids?
Where as it IS the blindingly obvious area for young lads wanting to stand and make an atmosphere.
You want to sit down pick one of the other 33000 seats in the ground. Really simple stuff.

 

[BushBlade]

100% agree.

How much revenue are we going to lose on matchday ticket sales now? There’s your budget for a good QC specialising in Licensing to go into bat.

Not the worst idea if there’s a potentially winnable case. Councils don’t like spending money on litigation. Can’t ignore them or tell them to fuck off, but we can employ someone to professionally tell them to fuck off.

 

[Foxy]

Where as it IS the blindingly obvious area for young lads wanting to stand and make an atmosphere.
You want to sit down pick one of the other 33000 seats in the ground. Really simple stuff.

What happens when the young lads age, do you kick em out or let them stay?

Or if the young lads are 5’7? I was a lot shorter when I first used to stand at the back of B/C (in my allocated ST), I was also younger than you consider suitable.

 

[Blades Glory Owls Down]

I have zero sympathy with a 5"7 women who chose the back or the KOP not being able to see? Isn't it blindingly obvious the back of the KOP isn't an area for a partially disabled women with 10 & 12 year old kids?
Where as it IS the blindingly obvious area for young lads wanting to stand and make an atmosphere.
You want to sit down pick one of the other 33000 seats in the ground. Really simple stuff.

Congratulations on totally missing the point!!

 

[noire]

Two of those had to move to a new stadium though. As did Southampton, Boro, Sunderland, Derby. Essentially, we have three options
1. Develop BL piecemeal and have lower capacity for a season or so whilst we’re doing so.
2. Do a Spurs and build a new stadium on the old site. Would necessitate moving to another ground for a couple of seasons, like Spurs moved to Wembley.
3. Sell the site to part fund the purchase of land and build a new stadium.

I’ve no idea where the money would come from for options 1 and 2 unless we’re in the PL. Even then it would be a struggle.

We are going to have to borrow money, we are going to have to have a reduced capacity for some time. It will hurt.

None of the examples moved before they knocked their old standing “end” down before rebuilding it. They moved afterwards. In the case of Man City (a club before the oil similarly as skint as we were) the new stand only lasted 6 or 7 years!

I can tell you now, we aren’t going to be able to have a full capacity Kop allowed this season, if ever. G & H block were shut for years on the south stand.

There isn’t really a choice to be made any longer. The club however will just carry on with a half tarpaulin covered Kop for the next 30 years I’m sure.

 

[Klaatu Barada Nikto]

I have zero sympathy with a 5"7 women who chose the back or the KOP not being able to see? Isn't it blindingly obvious the back of the KOP isn't an area for a partially disabled women with 10 & 12 year old kids?
Where as it IS the blindingly obvious area for young lads wanting to stand and make an atmosphere.
You want to sit down pick one of the other 33000 seats in the ground. Really simple stuff.

You want to stand? Pick a seat where you can, and don't block the gangways. Really simple stuff.

 

[FB98]

What happens when the young lads age, do you kick em out or let them stay?

Depends whether they're happy standing up & making a noise?
Surely it's clear to all this is THE area for young lads to stand up & make a noise where as 10 year olds who want to sit down in peace have 33000 seats to choose from? Standers have nowhere else to go. Anyone wanting to sit down has the choice of 33000 seats.

 

[nopigfansintown]

The club could use this opportunity to fast track safe standing or even a singing section (I know).

Somewhere in the middle of the Kop away from these gangways seems advisable.

 

[FB98]

You want to stand? Pick a seat where you can, and don't block the gangways. Really simple stuff

Would be really simple if there were any tickets available to buy in the area than stands. There isn't so it needs to expand & is what is currently causing overcrowding...

 

[Deadbat]

The SAG have been after the club re the Kop for over a decade. This has been in regards to entrance egress, overcrowding and other factors.
For me we should've added more turnstiles and gates on John Street and Shoreham street to proactively remove some of these problems. A good use of Premier League money you might say.

After "flare gate" at the 3-1 Lane derby we had the whole of G and H shut off for some years. The club did everything that could be expected to get it reopened, including spending a a lot of money on a state of the art CCTV system. This was frustrated for, in my view, an unreasonable amount of time.

A few years ago this was followed by the Kop: every seat on the Kop can be watched, every person on the Kop seen committing any crime or tresspass of ground regulations (including not sitting in their seat) With this being known, it begs the question how this situation has arisen? The authorities and SUFC have all the tools at their disposable to police the situation - and far more than almost any other club (at SUFC's expense, may I reiterate). This is the thanks you get! The club deserves credit for being proactive about this by the way - it was the choice of the club.

The actions of SAG and SCC/SYP are clearly disproportionate. There is very little that SUFC could've done that they haven't already done. The problem is a problem at all grounds, not just at SUFC. SUFC have hired man power and paid for technology that go above and beyond what can reasonably be expected

It makes me hark back to the Westfield corner. The stand was built to comply with the asks of SYP and SAG only for them to backtrack and change their requirements. Essentially so they didn't have to police away fans .

I'd like to think that SUFC will draw a line here. Get lawyered up and fight this disproportionate action as a matter of urgency. The club cannot sustain this revenue loss.

That was kind of my original point on this. I think the club have been pushed around too long by thr Council and police and a strong, involved owner would have legally challenged some of the restraints imposed (whole sections being closed, rudiculous level of segregation and now tickets not being sold).

The notion there is nothing the club can do I struggle with. A lot are saying ifvthe SAG or council tell us to do it we have to. If this happened to other clubs I believe there administration/ownership would have challenged more. I might be wrong.

By accepting this then this is a pre cursor to the back of the Kop being shut off soon and then possibly the whole stand being closed. People may say that's ridiculous it won't happen but I would not be surprised if that happened. Fans at the back are not going to stop standing or congregating...if anything this will see more doing it judging by the reaction on twitter so the shit storm has only just began.

Like to know what Abdullah, Yusuf and Bettis have done other than chucking a few stewards up to do checks? Surely before it got to this they should have paid for proper stewards/police to be in the sections of overcrowding? They heeded to communicate this was a possibility, closing sections of the ground. To jump from avfre stewards checking tickets to this is a big jump and we have had no communication or information that yesterday was a possibility until it happened.

That's my issue with the club on this. Yes fans overcrowding up there is the root of it as is SAG/Council's involvement which does not seem to happen in other towns/cities but ultimately the club has to manage its match day operation to prevent issues/external bodies getting involved and have failed to do this.

 

[Foxy]

Depends whether they're happy standing up & making a noise?
Surely it's clear to all this is THE area for young lads to stand up & make a noise where as 10 year olds who want to sit down in peace have 33000 seats to choose from? Standers have nowhere else to go. Anyone wanting to sit down has the choice of 33000 seats.

So there’s a choice of 33000 seats, but not for those who decide they are more important or more loyal, they should be able to stand where they want?

 

[Rodley]

Not the worst idea if there’s a potentially winnable case. Councils don’t like spending money on litigation. Can’t ignore them or tell them to fuck off, but we can employ someone to professionally tell them to fuck off.

Yup.

 

[Klaatu Barada Nikto]

Would be really simple if there were any tickets available to buy in the area than stands. There isn't so it needs to expand & is what is currently causing overcrowding...

So if there isn't any seats available to stand in, sit the fuck down in the seat you're given and don't block the gangways. Again, really simple stuff.

 

[FB98]

So there’s a choice of 33000 seats, but not for those who decide they are more important or more loyal, they should be able to stand where they want?

Who mentioned "more important or loyal"?

 

[FB98]

So if there isn't any seats available to stand in, sit the fuck down in the seat you're given and don't block the gangways. Again, really simple stuff.

Really simple if you're not interested in doing anything to improve the horrendous atmosphere I suppose, yeah. Luckily a minority are

 

[Foxy]

Who mentioned "more important or loyal"?

It’s been mentioned above that it’s punishing the “most loyal”. Not sure it was yourself who did though

What other reasons would it be therefore acceptable to suggest others shouldn’t be allowed to be there or should have to move?

 

[Klaatu Barada Nikto]

Really simple if you're not interested in doing anything to improve the horrendous atmosphere I suppose, yeah. Luckily a minority are

You think you're helping by getting on the day sales stopped?

 

[Rodley]

That was kind of my original point on this. I think the club have been pushed around too long by thr Council and police and a strong, involved owner would have legally challenged some of the restraints imposed (whole sections being closed, rudiculous level of segregation and now tickets not being sold).

The notion there is nothing the club can do I struggle with. A lot are saying ifvthe SAG or council tell us to do it we have to. If this happened to other clubs I believe there administration/ownership would have challenged more. I might be wrong.

By accepting this then this is a pre cursor to the back of the Kop being shut off soon and then possibly the whole stand being closed. People may say that's ridiculous it won't happen but I would not be surprised if that happened. Fans at the back are not going to stop standing or congregating...if anything this will see more doing it judging by the reaction on twitter so the shit storm has only just began.

Like to know what Abdullah, Yusuf and Bettis have done other than chucking a few stewards up to do checks? Surely before it got to this they should have paid for proper stewards/police to be in the sections of overcrowding? They heeded to communicate this was a possibility, closing sections of the ground. To jump from avfre stewards checking tickets to this is a big jump and we have had no communication or information that yesterday was a possibility until it happened.

That's my issue with the club on this. Yes fans overcrowding up there is the root of it as is SAG/Council's involvement which does not seem to happen in other towns/cities but ultimately the club has to manage its match day operation to prevent issues/external bodies getting involved and have failed to do this.

Completely agree, two strands on this IMHO:-

1) Are SAG overly punitive (it appears so) and do we need to stop rolling over and letting them tickle our bellies?

2) Acknowledging point 1), how have we (the Club) mismanaged the situation to the extent that we’re looking at the potential egregious loss of revenue / closure of a stand for what 50-80 people moving to an area to stand where people stand already?

 

[Deadbat]

The club could use this opportunity to fast track safe standing or even a singing section (I know).

Somewhere in the middle of the Kop away from these gangways seems advisable.

Yesterday's decision means we are as far away from safe standing as any club I would suggest. Taking away the cost and the fact we have not even carried out feasibility studies or consultation...the fact is the club cannot safely show it can house fans in seats in the Kop so any licence for that would be rebuked.

Thus it would take years due to above reasons for safe standing at the Lane to be brought in. A new Kop similarly is a long time away.

The SAG and Council clearly won't ket this go so unless fans comply to a degree then as Harry's Game says we will just see section by section if the Kop closed in the coming seasons and they will potentially not allow people to renew season ticket seats the back 8-10 rows next season and net it all off.

 

[FB98]

You think you're helping by getting on the day sales stopped?

The solution has to involve helping those intent on improving the atmosphere.
If everyone simply does as they're told the club will feel no urgency to improve the current situation.

 

[BushBlade]

We are going to have to borrow money, we are going to have to have a reduced capacity for some time. It will hurt.

None of the examples moved before they knocked their old standing “end” down before rebuilding it. They moved afterwards. In the case of Man City (a club before the oil similarly as skint as we were) the new stand only lasted 6 or 7 years!

I can tell you now, we aren’t going to be able to have a full capacity Kop allowed this season, if ever. G & H block were shut for years on the south stand.

There isn’t really a choice to be made any longer. The club however will just carry on with a half tarpaulin covered Kop for the next 30 years I’m sure.

Tbh, makes little difference to me anyway, I’ve no plans to attend in the near future so I’ll keep out of it from now on and leave it to those affected by it. My view is that we can’t afford it until we’re back in the PL and that won’t change unless someone actually puts up a properly costed business plan showing how we’d finance it on championship income.
I don’t disagree with the principle that the ground needs improvement but there’s been plenty of threads about how it should be done. We’ve gone from a few supporters who need to be properly policed so they stay in the area where they’ve bought their tickets, to having to rebuild the kop to sort the problem out.

 

[Klaatu Barada Nikto]

The solution has to involve helping those intent on improving the atmosphere.
If everyone simply does as they're told the club will feel no urgency to improve the current situation.

Your solution has meant on the day sales have been stopped, and so people can't come in and help improve the atmosphere. Slow claps all round.

 

[FB98]

It’s been mentioned above that it’s punishing the “most loyal”. Not sure it was yourself who did though

What other reasons would it be therefore acceptable to suggest others shouldn’t be allowed to be there or should have to move?

Certainly wasn't me. The other reason is because every other club in the country has a large area for fans wanting to stand & make some noise & it's quite evident to most that ours should be the back of the KOP.
Moving people who have no intention of making a noise out from the section we need to generate an atmosphere seems reasonable to every other club. Most of which have an atmosphere better than ours.

 

[alcoblade]

Leeds come under Leeds council. It may not be a level playing field but this is SCC acting alone.

The other clubs argument doesn’t apply as it’s a decision taken at local not nationwide level.

I’m not pointing the finger at one body or another. Though I’m sure our problem is SAG.

What frustrates me is both the number of people who care so much about not standing, yet purchase seasts in the most obviously stupid places in the kop.

And secondly, those who think the simple answer is to to “just sit in your own seat”, as though there isn’t an underlying problem.

 

[alcoblade]

Your solution has meant on the day sales have been stopped, and so people can't come in and help improve the atmosphere. Slow claps all round.

The atmosphere does not improve when more people come. It’s causes other problems, but not that.