Outgoing? SANDER BERGE ON WAY OUT ?

[A Storm of Blades]

His pass completion was 83%, which along with Ndiaye was highest in the team. On occasions he takes his time on the ball before he picks a pass. I wonder if these are the situations where people feel he's dallying on the ball? Are people aware that he often wants a midfielder to come and press him before he passes past him, as that goes a little way of taking a midfielder out of his position. Overall his passing was good last night in a team that lacked attacking threats.

People keep going on about him needing to do what he does best more often. But it's just not about giving him the ball and expect him to bomb through midfields again and again. He needs some space for these runs, some instability in the opposition lines of defence. For various reasons the team didn't achieve that too many times last night.

And a competent midfield around him

 

[Toronto Blade fan]

Our current midfield has zero movement and zero willingness to get into the open. What made MGW so amazing, was his movement. He created holes in the defense by running to openings. Play Berge with hungry players and he will shine.

 

[3Cheers4Ramirez]

Could all be very different if he's playing with Doyle and McAtee (and the rest)

Sounds like your typical optimist/apologist comment but it's true

We have craaaazy attacking potential if it can be integrated properly tactically

 

[VictoryBlade]

We need Trevor Hockey in midfield! Eye, eye Hockey, Hockey Eye singing.................you get the rest!

 

[Bergen Blade]

Bergen Blade , I always bow (seriously) to your superior knowledge of the game. I can't offer many tactical tweaks that would get more form him, other than to pay him more advanced as that's the only time I've seen him excel for us.

My real fear is that, at worst, he just doesn't have the engine for the English game - and no matter what we do that will remain a big problem. At best, he watches the game go by waiting for the ideal situation to protect his statistics, always shying from the dirty stuff and rarely trying what he excels at, because the moment isn't perfect

My simple change would be to demand that he gets more involved, or we move him on. But it's down to him, not position, or those around him.

Even in your (previous) analysis, it doesn't seem to be about what Berge does wrong - this time it's the players around him not making space for him. My main objection is the endless line of excuses that are offered (not by you specifically). Many posters who offer these excuses also talk in terms of him commanding huge fees. The two can't go together. If he's that good, he can demonstrate it independently of the excuses served up.

My negativity isn't based solely on Berge - but it's here where there's so much to go at.

Jebbison not being ready (less so), Fleck and Stevens getting past it, McBurnie being a cart horse - it seems the forum is generally as one on this, so it doesn't draw the same debate.

There are so many variables in football, so many small factors that decide the fortunes of teams and players, and that is what makes it interesting to discuss with others.

Imagine a team being Champions League contenders one season and getting relegated in humiliating fashion the next. A team not winning a match until 22nd December, yet finishing 13th. A team playing like this, but still getting promoted with 100 points. A player (Fjørtoft at Swindon) not scoring before Christmas, then scoring 13 in his last 17 games.

I think there's more to it than effort or attitude. More to coaching and management than demanding players to do more.

 

[bertieblade]

We need Trevor Hockey in midfield! Eye, eye Hockey, Hockey Eye singing.................you get the rest!

I mentioned exactly the same player last night, someone to do the dirty work and give it to the footballers to orchestrate and create

 

[alcoblade]

I think there's more to it than effort or attitude. More to coaching and management than demanding players to do more.

I’m sure you’re right and you do a great job of pointing these things out - I’m the first to admit I have zero tactical nouse (like most others who don’t admit it ).

What I am sure of is that something just sn’t working yet, and Berge himself must shoulder a big part of that responsibility

 

[Keen Blade]

Maybe if Berge had Doyle , Khadra , Ndiaye , Bogle , Osborne or McAtee zipping around in front of him - instead of Fleck & Norwood doing fuck all very slowly - he (Berge) would affect games more.
It was embarrassing to see Berge in wide spaces - wildly waving his 6'5" frame at Fleck & Norwood to pass to him - whilst they never once looked in his direction , or indeed in any direction

 

[alcoblade]

Maybe if Berge had Doyle , Khadra , Ndiaye , Bogle , Osborne or McAtee zipping around in front of him - instead of Fleck & Norwood doing fuck all very slowly - he (Berge) would affect games more.
It was embarrassing to see Berge in wide spaces - wildly waving his 6'5" frame at Fleck & Norwood to pass to him - whilst they never once looked in his direction , or indeed in any direction

This is another example - not enough players zipping around in front of him, those behind him not passing to him.

Once again, everyone else is the problem, but not Berge.

 

[brownblade]

I like Sander, he could be a weapon for us this season... But there is a level of inconsistency with him.

As we have now other options, I'm sure we'll sell him IF we get a worthwhile bid. But has anyone really got £15-20m to spend on a player that hasn't been consistent/fit for 2.5yrs?

If he stays I really hope he peaks this season, to help us to the top 2. Even if that's just until January.

 

[Stevo]

Too many excuses have been made for berge since he came here, no doubt he has talent but he is not what we need, sell him for 12m-15m and rebuild the midfield with 2/3 additions who are mobile, will pass the ball forward and will add some bite

 

[AnstonBlade1]

It’s clear that Sanders footballing brain is 5 steps in front of everyone else, same goes for MGW, stuck out like a sore thumb last season.

 

[alcoblade]

It’s clear that Sanders footballing brain is 5 steps in front of everyone else, same goes for MGW, stuck out like a sore thumb last season.

Berge bingo tick.

It stuck out like a sore thumb with MGW, which is why he's now in a premier league squad.

It really didn't stick out like a sore thumb with Berge, which is why he's still here.

 

[AnstonBlade1]

Berge bingo tick.

It stuck out like a sore thumb with MGW, which is why he's now in a premier league squad.

It really didn't stick out like a sore thumb with Berge, which is why he's still here.

Did at times, just too inconsistent and that’s the the most frustrating thing.

 

[FinBlade]

No club will pay the money we want from Berge, so he stay with us this season

 

[Guesty]

Berge bingo tick.

It stuck out like a sore thumb with MGW, which is why he's now in a premier league squad.

It really didn't stick out like a sore thumb with Berge, which is why he's still here.

Plus going on that logic, Gibbs-White was able to drag everyone up towards his level because that's what really good players do. Berge apparently just gets dragged down the level of everyone else. Berge may be "five steps in front of everybody else" but that translates to him looking very ordinary, Gibbs-White was able to make himself stand out.

 

[Frank the tank]

This is another example - not enough players zipping around in front of him, those behind him not passing to him.

Once again, everyone else is the problem, but not Berge.

I thought he played well especially first half
Didn't take you long to stick the boot in again ,god knows what you'd be like if he did actually have a bad game

 

[Brownieblade]

Berge bingo tick.

It stuck out like a sore thumb with MGW, which is why he's now in a premier league squad.

It really didn't stick out like a sore thumb with Berge, which is why he's still here.

You mean squad as in still not good enough to start in premier league

If you’re going to argue good to argue he is in a squad based on his talent then you have to acknowledge he hasn’t been good enough to start yet

 

[Brownieblade]

Plus going on that logic, Gibbs-White was able to drag everyone up towards his level because that's what really good players do. Berge apparently just gets dragged down the level of everyone else. Berge may be "five steps in front of everybody else" but that translates to him looking very ordinary, Gibbs-White was able to make himself stand out.

MGW stood out because he was more or less playing to a style he has all his life, he looked good because he is used to the English style given it’s all he knows, he was probably given a bit more free licence

Stick them both in a different league then it might be entirely different

 

[Cheesebored]

I thought he played well especially first half
Didn't take you long to stick the boot in again ,god knows what you'd be like if he did actually have a bad game

What about those who rate him highly but thought his effort and work rate on Monday were shambolic? He should be making things happen instead of ambling through games. He looked different class in his advanced position at the end of last season but he's too inconsistent by far. When he's not on his game he's an absolute passenger.

 

[robbiez666]

This is another example - not enough players zipping around in front of him, those behind him not passing to him.

Once again, everyone else is the problem, but not Berge.

Too many excuses have been made for berge since he came here, no doubt he has talent but he is not what we need, sell him for 12m-15m and rebuild the midfield with 2/3 additions who are mobile, will pass the ball forward and will add some bite

Berge has played most of his career and wants to play the Norwood role. The fact remains that he struggles at heading, tackling, marking and tracking back. He's much worse than Fleck and Norwood at covering a wingback. He ambles. He rarely looks determined. Only comes alive on the ball. He drifts through games. Give me an honest player who gives 110% all the time.

He's a luxury we can't afford. I'd rather take £15 million and build a training ground than end up selling him on the cheap in a year.

He doesn't suit our play or the league. He rarely plays well for 90 minutes

 

[ben1987]

I can’t believe how many people are wetting the bed and turning on Berge after the first game of the season after spending all summer worrying about him leaving.

While we continue to pick Fleck, Stevens and to an extent Norwood - which might seem harsh on the latter against quick, athletic and mobile teams we will struggle. Watford had good athletes across the pitch. Against teams like that Norwood and Fleck end up sat just in front of the defence creating a huge gulf between the attack and the other 9 men on the pitch. Unless their first touch and hold up play Is absolutely flawless for the 10 mins it takes for the rest of the team to move up the pitch we’re fucked. Then when we inevitably give the ball away, if those 3 have ventured forward we get cut through because they cannot run.

While playing 3 at the back unless the wing backs are heavily involved we end up outnumbered in the middle and final 3rd in pretty much every situation.

Apart from Ndiaye’s performance the rest was pretty rank. Behind Ndiaye Berge was one of the few that actually made an effort to try and get a few balls into the box or play a few forward passes for people to run on to.

It’s sad because those 3 players have played a hugely important role in my best memories of being a blade. Stevens was in the top 2/3 left backs in the premier league in that first season he was unbelievable. Norwood still offers something in games where we expect to have the majority of possession as he can really make us tick - but against the better / more athletic teams he simply is not mobile enough.

Berge cannot be judged on Monday. I’d personally love to see him in a more mobile and athletic team.

Long gone are the days you get R9 Ronaldo for £20 million quid, unless you’re playing in a top 6 side your game is flawed. Berge isn’t perfect. He’s not agile or aggressive out of possession but he has an impressive skill set that could be utilised a lot better.

 

[3Cheers4Ramirez]

No club will pay the money we want from Berge, so he stay with us this season

Correct

Felt this for a while

Our demands are unrealistic. And we'll probably end up paying for it

But if it forces him to stay, and he's forced to give his all, it bodes well for our chances

But again, if we don't go up, a heavy loss on him is very likely

 

[Yogi]

Plus going on that logic, Gibbs-White was able to drag everyone up towards his level because that's what really good players do. Berge apparently just gets dragged down the level of everyone else. Berge may be "five steps in front of everybody else" but that translates to him looking very ordinary, Gibbs-White was able to make himself stand out.

MGW came across as a supreme competitor someone who was all about winning. JOC always came across the same way and billy does aswell players who go home genuinely gutted if we don’t get 3 points

 

[CaptainMorgans]

I can’t believe how many people are wetting the bed and turning on Berge after the first game of the season after spending all summer worrying about him leaving.

While we continue to pick Fleck, Stevens and to an extent Norwood - which might seem harsh on the latter against quick, athletic and mobile teams we will struggle. Watford had good athletes across the pitch. Against teams like that Norwood and Fleck end up sat just in front of the defence creating a huge gulf between the attack and the other 9 men on the pitch. Unless their first touch and hold up play Is absolutely flawless for the 10 mins it takes for the rest of the team to move up the pitch we’re fucked. Then when we inevitably give the ball away, if those 3 have ventured forward we get cut through because they cannot run.

While playing 3 at the back unless the wing backs are heavily involved we end up outnumbered in the middle and final 3rd in pretty much every situation.

Apart from Ndiaye’s performance the rest was pretty rank. Behind Ndiaye Berge was one of the few that actually made an effort to try and get a few balls into the box or play a few forward passes for people to run on to.

It’s sad because those 3 players have played a hugely important role in my best memories of being a blade. Stevens was in the top 2/3 left backs in the premier league in that first season he was unbelievable. Norwood still offers something in games where we expect to have the majority of possession as he can really make us tick - but against the better / more athletic teams he simply is not mobile enough.

Berge cannot be judged on Monday. I’d personally love to see him in a more mobile and athletic team.

Long gone are the days you get R9 Ronaldo for £20 million quid, unless you’re playing in a top 6 side your game is flawed. Berge isn’t perfect. He’s not agile or aggressive out of possession but he has an impressive skill set that could be utilised a lot better.

But it's up to Berge to utilise his skillset better. He sees plenty of the ball when he shows for it.

 

[andy m]

Paul Coutts looked shit when playing with shit players. As soon as we put mobile players who wanted the ball around him he was a Rolls Royce.

 

[ben1987]

But it's up to Berge to utilise his skillset better. He sees plenty of the ball when he shows for it.

Half agree with you. He could probably impose himself on games more.

There was also probably half a dozen times on Monday where he was in an acre of space waving for a ball that didn’t arrive and went sideways or backwards instead. Then there was probably the same amount of times again where he looked to pass forward and had no one within 20 yards of him.

People seem to expect him to be able to pull us through a shit performance individually. It’s not going to happen.

MGW did it to an extent on occasion last season but also had a number of games where he was ineffective and turned over possession too much. As good as he was at times some of those performances were because his link up with Billy, Bogle, Ndiyae, Berge was unreal due to the fact they were having good games at the time too.

Ndiyae was brilliant Monday. Everyone else was average or below.

So it’s hard for him to show off the skill set he has in a game like that.

 

[Speedracer]

He's a luxury we can't afford. I'd rather take £15 million and build a training ground than end up selling him on the cheap in a year.

Apologies for picking on this line of your post, but if you, or anyone else thinks that we get the money from his sale to be spent on replacements you are in cloud cuckoo land, a fact that has been proven almost every time we have sold an asset.

 

[CaptainMorgans]

Half agree with you. He could probably impose himself on games more.

There was also probably half a dozen times on Monday where he was in an acre of space waving for a ball that didn’t arrive and went sideways or backwards instead. Then there was probably the same amount of times again where he looked to pass forward and had no one within 20 yards of him.

People seem to expect him to be able to pull us through a shit performance individually. It’s not going to happen.

MGW did it to an extent on occasion last season but also had a number of games where he was ineffective and turned over possession too much. As good as he was at times some of those performances were because his link up with Billy, Bogle, Ndiyae, Berge was unreal due to the fact they were having good games at the time too.

Ndiyae was brilliant Monday. Everyone else was average or below.

So it’s hard for him to show off the skill set he has in a game like that.

MGW might have been ineffective in game, but he never went missing.

Berge on the other hand...


For what it's worth, I think he's a huge talent with great potential and I do agree that, surrounded by better players he could showcase his skillset more often.
I had a debate recently in shoutbox where I referenced all of the above but still concluded that there's no way he is worth £15-20m to us. If (and it's obviously a massive "if") we were allowed to reinvest the proceeds from his sale then I think we could make ourselves a far better, more balanced team with a few signings in different areas.

 

[ben1987]

MGW might have been ineffective in game, but he never went missing.

Berge on the other hand...


For what it's worth, I think he's a huge talent with great potential and I do agree that, surrounded by better players he could showcase his skillset more often.
I had a debate recently in shoutbox where I referenced all of the above but still concluded that there's no way he is worth £15-20m to us. If (and it's obviously a massive "if") we were allowed to reinvest the proceeds from his sale then I think we could make ourselves a far better, more balanced team with a few signings in different areas.

As a 34 year old blade I think MGW is the single most talented and one of the most hard working players I’ve ever seen in a blades shirt - he really was a joy to watch last season. So far he’s a one in a lifetime for me and not really comparable to anyone else

If we had 22 million in the bank now would we buy Berge? No, we wouldn’t. It would probably be spent on new facilities and split more evenly across the playing staff.

We bought him when circumstances were different but he’s here. The board obviously value their investment and Hecky obviously values him as both a player and a person.

We need to back him and get the best out of him in hope we can either recoup most of that investment or gain promotion again.

This isn’t aimed at you, but it’s irritating reading post after post slagging off Berge when apart from N’Diaye there were 9 (Wes excluded) bang average performances plus subs. Berge is actually one of the other 9 who has actual ability and potential to influence the season where several of the others seem to be well past their best. He certainly was no where near the worst on the pitch Monday, I’d say he was our second best outfield player.