Our 'leaders'?

[Deadbat]

I got criticised on Saturday for lamabasting the side for bottling it and showing no leadership whatsover. I dont want to harbour the point but what is angering me most at the moment is that our so called experienced players Simonsen, Ertl, Montgomery, Doyle, Quinn, Cresswell, Williamson are all failing when it comes to the crunch again. More than the results for me its the lack of any one of these players; let alone the collective taking some kind of responsibility. I never see anyone talking to each other, giving advice or generally galvanising the troops. On Saturday as goal after goal went in; noone said anything. Heads dropped and it was just as if they accepted it. Of course I was not there tonight but you would think after getting level tonigh someone would get the team together or get their foot on the ball and take the sting out of it but no we just keep tossing goals away.

Lowton and MAguire made stupid mistakes on Saturday and were rightly sent off but I do feel many of the above have to take some responsibility and are simply not doing that. Of course we are really missing Morgan but it is too easy just to blame Doyle (or Montgomery) as the captain/s.

All of the above have played most of their careers in the top two divisions and many are quick to come on the website/press and throw a quote here and there but I want to see some of this translate onto the pitch. Unfortunatelyafter last season they did prove incapable of rising to the occasion when it mattered in the crucial games and in the run in and it is sadly looking the same. Of course I am not saying drop them as they are some of our best players but it seems this 'play not to lose' culture as we reach the business end seems immersed in the club and they still cannot shake off previous disappointments.

I do wonder if these same players will want to leave us and move back to the same Championship they took us out of (the wrong way) and then show they are incapable of getting us back into; if we do not go up?

If they want to play at a higher level they should be proving they can do it. Do they think it will be any different at any other club. Maybe. Of course at other clubs there may be some stronger characters/leaders so the likes of some of the above could srrik some responsibility and get away with it?

As I say this is not a major rant at them as players (they are better players some of those mentioned than most in the division) but we have 6 or 7 veteran's who have played tons of games at higher levels and the it is too easy to say,' we had a new defence' or a 'new team' out (we have been veyr fortunate - more so than other teams to have a settled back 4 - should have had cover ages ago but thats another debate!).

Any thoughts?

 

[BaldeRunner]

yep, i think you are right. Every promotion side that United have had contained memorable leaders who saw us through - Trevor Hockey, Morgan, Deane et al. Don't really see who is driving us in this team. The obvious ones you point out that should be taking us up are the same ones who took us down and I am concerned they aren't showing the steel we need. Too early to panic and we were crippled tonight with the back four out. However, we were playing sodding Walsall, not Barcelona and by all accounts gave the game away through defensive calamities. Let's face it we are a fragile side but we are in a dreadful league and it really is an opportunity for some very handsomely paid footballers to step up and take responsibility. We need to start on Saturday and if I was DW I would work with the team solidly over the next few days to get bloody organised, get the mindset right and start an automatic promotion push. I have just put in four straight 12 hour days to prepare a presentation for work. Maybe our players could do the same. Not all physical training. Shut the doors, talk, focus, prioritise, concentrate and get the show back on the road. Pivotal moment in the season - we can and should still do it.

 

[Bergen Blade]

While we have many strikers, Ched is the only one who scores at the moment. It's ten games ago since Cressy last scored. Can we expect to keep our position in the automatic places without two strikers getting a good amount of goals?

 

[secretchief]

'Character' is one thing and I agree as far as it goes, but losing games happens most when players who aren't good enough feature prominently.

Ertl and Taylor weren't good enough when they were signed, Ertl in particular is finished as a footballer. Nothing against him personally, but this was obvious from the half hour or so he had against hartlepool when lowton tweaked something and went off (lowton's absence contributed to the defeat against Carlisle the following game). Letting Conneely go (or not allowing him to step up and deputise) when Ertl had shown himself to be inadequate seems pretty negligent. Full backs need to have pace.

Bringing in strikers and not using them at the expense of taking the opportunity to acquire adequate defensive cover has clearly backfired.

Unless cresswell contributes something at a level of three dimensional chess that is beyond me in its sophistication in his (supposed) linking with Evans - or unless he is undroppable because he adds something defensively (which seems unlikely considered recent events), I don't see why Hoskins is being held back. Do we need a target man that badly?

MacDonald has obviously been the biggest loss. Real hammer blow.

 

[Pragmatic Blade]

How many of Cheds goals have been created or helped by Cresswell's running off the ball and nous? I would wager he contributes more to the team than Beattie or Hoskins in the opinion of the management. Beattie had an ordinary 45 mins v Scunny and Hoskins may not do enough defensively for Danny's liking......

Not saying Hoskins doesn't deserve a chance, just that Cresswell may bring more overall to the team hence why we persevere with him.

 

[Bladesman]

I think our luck has run out with out a proper captain / leader on the pitch.

Resting on our laurels because results were good and all it took was Lowton and Maguire to show their inexperience (which they were bound to do still young lads) to really highlight why we fell into this division in the first place. No real leader and we haven't had one since Morgan got injured.

Morgan is not likely to come back despite the official site claiming he is "some way off". Its over for him and I will eat a big piece of humble pie if he plays in the first team again.

Get a leader at the back because even if some how we go up still we certainly bloody need one.

 

[bartman]

I got criticised on Saturday for lamabasting the side for bottling it and showing no leadership whatsover. I dont want to harbour the point but what is angering me most at the moment is that our so called experienced players Simonsen, Ertl, Montgomery, Doyle, Quinn, Cresswell, Williamson are all failing when it comes to the crunch again. More than the results for me its the lack of any one of these players; let alone the collective taking some kind of responsibility. I never see anyone talking to each other, giving advice or generally galvanising the troops. On Saturday as goal after goal went in; noone said anything. Heads dropped and it was just as if they accepted it. Of course I was not there tonight but you would think after getting level tonigh someone would get the team together or get their foot on the ball and take the sting out of it but no we just keep tossing goals away.

Lowton and MAguire made stupid mistakes on Saturday and were rightly sent off but I do feel many of the above have to take some responsibility and are simply not doing that. Of course we are really missing Morgan but it is too easy just to blame Doyle (or Montgomery) as the captain/s.

All of the above have played most of their careers in the top two divisions and many are quick to come on the website/press and throw a quote here and there but I want to see some of this translate onto the pitch. Unfortunatelyafter last season they did prove incapable of rising to the occasion when it mattered in the crucial games and in the run in and it is sadly looking the same. Of course I am not saying drop them as they are some of our best players but it seems this 'play not to lose' culture as we reach the business end seems immersed in the club and they still cannot shake off previous disappointments.

I do wonder if these same players will want to leave us and move back to the same Championship they took us out of (the wrong way) and then show they are incapable of getting us back into; if we do not go up?

If they want to play at a higher level they should be proving they can do it. Do they think it will be any different at any other club. Maybe. Of course at other clubs there may be some stronger characters/leaders so the likes of some of the above could srrik some responsibility and get away with it?

As I say this is not a major rant at them as players (they are better players some of those mentioned than most in the division) but we have 6 or 7 veteran's who have played tons of games at higher levels and the it is too easy to say,' we had a new defence' or a 'new team' out (we have been veyr fortunate - more so than other teams to have a settled back 4 - should have had cover ages ago but thats another debate!).

Any thoughts?

Quinn and Willo should be exempt from this based on tonight DB and in fairness,I cannot see what Simmo has done wrong. However,I thought Creswell,Ertl,Flynn and in particular Doyle were very poor tonight. Doyle was backing out of tackles which set the tone.

We did well to come back twice and scoring goals doesn't appear to be an issue but we cannot plan for losing all of our regular back four.

I was disappointed with DW tonight. At one nil down he was bringing the a sub on then Willo scored so he changed his mind. He should have made the change there and then(I am assuming he was taking Creswell off) as the change needed making anyway. (might have sneaked a point if we were given a penalty when Quinn was rugby tackled in the bos during the 2nd half )

Hopefully,Lowton,Maguire and Collins all back for Satdi with Hill at left back. Might also be time for Monty to replace Doyle and for Creswell to be dropped.

I suppose we were due a dip but I didn't expect us to concede 6 goals in two games

 

[metalblade]

Can't argue with anything Deadbat wrote in the Oldham report, tonight just re-enforces all we suspected. We are a team of bottlers, we have players who have made Premiership appearances for god sake and those players took us out of the Premiership, out of the Championship and now have found their level .............. just slightly above average League one players who when it matters can't step up to the mark.

Same owd United I'm afraid, build you up then kick you in the bollocks over and over and over again. From a virtually unassailable position a few weeks back we have now been caught, the wheels have well and truly fallen off.

 

[Bladesman]

Quinn and Willo should be exempt from this based on tonight DB and in fairness,I cannot see what Simmo has done wrong. However,I thought Creswell,Ertl,Flynn and in particular Doyle were very poor tonight. Doyle was backing out of tackles which set the tone.

We did well to come back twice and scoring goals doesn't appear to be an issue but we cannot plan for losing all of our regular back four.

I was disappointed with DW tonight. At one nil down he was bringing the a sub on then Willo scored so he changed his mind. He should have made the change there and then(I am assuming he was taking Creswell off) as the change needed making anyway. (might have sneaked a point if we were given a penalty when Quinn was rugby tackled in the bos during the 2nd half )

Hopefully,Lowton,Maguire and Collins all back for Satdi with Hill at left back. Might also be time for Monty to replace Doyle and for Creswell to be dropped.

I suppose we were due a dip but I didn't expect us to concede 6 goals in two games

What? What? What? What? What? What?

Mission fuck up the season completely would be will under way doing that.

 

[bartman]

Can't argue with anything Deadbat wrote in the Oldham report, tonight just re-enforces all we suspected. We are a team of bottlers, we have players who have made Premiership appearances for god sake and those players took us out of the Premiership, out of the Championship and now have found their level .............. just slightly above average League one players who when it matters can't step up to the mark.

Same owd United I'm afraid, build you up then kick you in the bollocks over and over and over again. From a virtually unassailable position a few weeks back we have now been caught, the wheels have well and truly fallen off.

Sorry but totally disagree. At what point have we 'bottled it'. How many teams would have coped at this level with losing their back 4 in one game ? We have lost 3 games in 4 yet are still in 2nd place. I didn't any bottle being lost at Huddersfield a few weeks ago.

Today we were without Maguire,Collins,MacDonald,Lowton,Williams,LJF. Five of these are automatic picks this season. How many other teams would cope witrh that at this level.

12 games left...The other teams have strugles round us(Pigs lost 3 in 4 recently,Hudders lost 2 big leads in two recent games). This is going to the final game

 

[metalblade]

A win at the sty or even a point would have put the pigs out of the running, guess what we lose it, then we contrive to throw a 2 goal lead away against Oldham and snatch defeat from the jaws of victory sounds like a team of bottlers to me, tonight's fiasco was just a consequence of Saturday's lunacy. Same owd United after 50 years of the same you come to expect it.

 

[bartman]

Because we lose we are a team of bottlers ? beggars belief

 

[Fiery Blade]

It's not that we lose - we have now lost three matches out of the last four!
We have conceded six goals in the last two games against lower rated third division sides!
Agree totally Deadbat
No Leaders - no one takes responsibility
Still not convinced by Wilson - now is the time to earn your money
Having seen United bottle it year after year - I fear this year will be no different

 

[Sirius]

It's not that we lose - we have now lost three matches out of the last four!
We have conceded six goals in the last two games against lower rated third division sides!
Agree totally Deadbat

Still not convinced by Wilson - now is the time to earn your money
Having seen United bottle it year after year - I fear this year will be no different

We are still in the driving seat for automatic. What has Wilson to do to convince you guys? At the start of the season. if offered a play off place I would have taken it.
Automatic
promotion didn"t seem realistic. But we are still up there; I see a bumpy ride ahead though.

 

[Trafford]

Whilst it is perhaps a little harsh to say that we are bottlers, we do seem to have become a confidence team and setbacks such as McDonalds injury against Preston and Cresswell's own goal against Oldham visibly shake the team. This is where we need someone who can rally the troops and, as DB points out, we haven't got anyone. One of the other threads slates Simmo but he is the classic case of a confidence player - when the team is playing well, he plays well, when they aren't or he makes a mistake, more follow. The returning players will hopefully give the rest a boost but it's been plain to see for some time that we have problems - question is, what can we do about them and who is going to boss the midfield if McDonald still isn't fit?

 

[Moosie]

You would have thought someone would have stepped up to the plate re McDonald's injury, like willo or Quinn. Quinn's form in too inconsistent and I don't think that' it is Willo's role either.

But if you would have said to me before the season started we would be comfortably in the play offs and be challenging for automatic promotion then I would have thought you'd have been dreaming. This was the year IMO for blooding the youngsters and clearing out the deadwood. So I figured we'd be scratching about in mid table, maybe making a late bid for the play offs. But after seeing most sides in the division it is plain to see why we are where we are. There is a lot of shit in this league, and the table backs it up.

 

[Micalijo]

Because we lose we are a team of bottlers ? beggars belief

You need to smell the coffee a bit Barty lad. These weak excuses of pro footballers let us down last term and they are doing the same again when the heat is applied. Your comment about it being time for Monty has at least cheered me up a bit.

Top posting Deadbat - keep it up.

 

[judge]

The only people who seemed to have reverted to type during this bad run of results are the fans just like they do every time we hit a bad run of form at critical times FFs man up and get behind the team it might help more turning into a bunch of hysterical girls who seem to enjoy these moments more than when we are winning

 

[Micalijo]

You would have thought someone would have stepped up to the plate re McDonald's injury, like willo or Quinn. Quinn's form in too inconsistent and I don't think that' it is Willo's role either.

But if you would have said to me before the season started we would be comfortably in the play offs and be challenging for automatic promotion then I would have thought you'd have been dreaming. This was the year IMO for blooding the youngsters and clearing out the deadwood. So I figured we'd be scratching about in mid table, maybe making a late bid for the play offs. But after seeing most sides in the division it is plain to see why we are where we are. There is a lot of shit in this league, and the table backs it up.

Fair comments - I don't think many realised how bad the teams in this division were.

 

[judge]

Fair comments - I don't think many realised how bad the teams in this division were.

Buy a spine

 

[bartman]

But we are one of those 'bad' teams. There are no good teams in the 3rd Division which is why we are down there. Not saying everything is perfect but do people seriously think that we would conceded 3 goals last night if Lowton,Collins and Maguire were playing? Our back up squad is obviously not strong enough.

The positives are that we are still scoring and at least 2 of of back four(hopefully Collins as well) will be back at the weekend

 

[Micalijo]

The only people who seemed to have reverted to type during this bad run of results are the fans just like they do every time we hit a bad run of form at critical times FFs man up and get behind the team it might help more turning into a bunch of hysterical girls who seem to enjoy these moments more than when we are winning

Yay, United, United, rah, rah, rah.

 

[judge]

Yay, United, United, rah, rah, rah.

That smarmy arrogant cowardly reply just about sums you up perfectly

 

[SotonBlade]

We've missed a Morgan. Ever since he got injured no one has replaced the leadership he brought to the side. I've said it before that had Morgan not got injured, i don't think we'd have been relegated. The moment he got injured no-one was shouting and screaming at players on the field.

Talk of Simmo and Cresswell 'leading' the side can be forgotten. I don't like the idea of a striker or goalkeeper captaining or leading a side on the field. They are too remote on most occasions. You need someone in defence or midfield doing that job. the options in this case are:

Maguire - Too young and not likely to command respect of his peers yet
Collins - Capable, but needs to show it
Lowton - Too quiet
Taylor - Too quiet
Doyle - He has the armaband most of the time so at the moment he should be leading the side. Maybe needs some lessons from Morgs
Monty - In and out of the side and will take the armband off of Doyle when he plays. He doesn't inspire me as a captain though.
MacDonald - Seen him interviewed and can come across a little bit as Billy Big Bollocks. I'd leave him to do what he does best in midfield.
Quinn - Too hot headed
Willo - Too quiet
Flynn - Too quiet

So not many options for me really. If it were me i'd give it to Collins. Challenge him to give the players rockets who aren't doing what they should be.

I may have gone off the tangent a bit, but your captain has to start the leadership, then the others in the team who are capable will slot in and work with him. If one isn't doing it, none of them will

 

[Micalijo]

That smarmy arrogant cowardly reply just about sums you up perfectly

Unlike your predictable, aggressive, 'hardman', know it all, rants spewed out in any direction. Man up, take it on the chin and move on - complete nonsense. This is a forum pal where you can say what you want within reason about your football club (although sometimes you corss the line as we know because you cannot interact without swearing etc) - ours quite clearly is a shambles built on sand despite the best efforts of Danny who I am 100% behind. It's the players who need spines not us loyal fans who spend many hundreds and in some cases thousands watching them.

 

[judge]

Unlike your predictable, aggressive, 'hardman', know it all, rants spewed out in any direction. Man up, take it on the chin and move on - complete nonsense. This is a forum pal where you can say what you want within reason about your football club - ours quite clearly is a shambles built on sand despiote the best efforts of Danny who I am 100% behind. It's the players who need spines not us loyal fans who spend many hundreds and in some cases thousands watching them.

Youre always the same , few bad results and youre like a hate preacher revelling in misery and self pity Soon as we win a few you're on the missing list
Heard it all before with you it's a tired old routine now

 

[SotonBlade]

Youre always the same , few bad results and youre like a hate preacher revelling in misery and self pity Soon as we win a few you're on the missing list
Heard it all before with you it's a tired old routine now

Mic, as much as you are entitled to your opinion, as is everyone, this is how you come across 8 times out of every 10 occasions you post. Do you have a habit of rubbing people up the wrong way in everyday life as well. You come across as very abrasive!

 

[super_pig]

DB in midweek away match report??.. this is more serious than i thought

 

[raul]

Mic, as much as you are entitled to your opinion, as is everyone, this is how you come across 8 times out of every 10 occasions you post. Do you have a habit of rubbing people up the wrong way in everyday life as well. You come across as very abrasive!

Scouser though Sotty, what can you expect??

In all honesty though what I will say is that everytime I've had a day out, home or away, in his company, despite disagreeing with pretty much everything he believes in (McCabe, Warnock, Mexican Waves etc), that day has been all the more enjoyable for it.

 

[SwissBlade]

Some bitchy comments on here this morning. Judge and Mic, you obviously have feelings for each other, but its clear you can't live together.

I think you need to spend some time with Graham and see if you can't work out your differences.

Don't go away, after the break we will reveal the all important DNA results