Na then Forest.....

[LSF]

I was close to what was happening on the management side of the NCB during the 84/85 strike working for Government on a consultancy basis having previously been employed by the NCB. I was in and out of Hobart House NCB Headquarters giving advice on EEC funding across a range of issues, one being retraining for redundant workers.

The European and Coal Steel Community policies of the EEC had impacted financially on both industries with the influx of cheaper imports. Thatcher wanted to reduce the amount of subsidies, the solution, Privatisation. To achieve this they had to be profitable, enter the axeman Ian Mcgregor. Having downsized the Steel industry in record time IM was installed as NCB Chairman and the scene was set for confrontation with the passing of the 1984 Industrial Relations Act requiring secret ballots for industrial action.

IM set about purging NCB management sympathetic to the unions. I know because my ex boss mysteriously retired a few weeks after suggesting to IM that they should discuss the rationalisation plans with the Unions. Pits had always closed but within a defined criteria whereby reserves were virtually exhausted or conditions underground were not safe. IM came in and tore the rule book up and insisted on new criteria for what determined profitability at a pit. This put at risk 20 pits immediately but NCB management realised that if applied rigorously it affected more than half the 170 pits still working meaning in excess of 85,000 could lose their jobs. IM was belligerent and insisted on lists being drawn up secretly. I saw one of the early versions in later years, it had near to 100 pits on it, most with years of workable reserves left. IM was having his strings pulled by Thatcher as he refused to listen to the more pragmatic managers who proposed a phased approach to closures through negotiation. I'm certain the rumour at the time that it was NCB management that leaked the list to AS was true. They could see the Industry being decimated.

I've commented before on how I felt AS got it wrong strategically over the strike but not even he would anticipate that IM encouraged by Thatcher was secretly negotiating with Roy Lynk and a few other members of the Nottinghamshire NUM to form a breakaway union. Its true to say during the first few weeks of March 1984 99% of miners were supportive of the strike, jobs were at risk not pay. There was an expectation a ballot would follow in the next few weeks, it didn't.

To understand the depth of feeling towards Nottingham you have to look at the Union of Democratic Mineworkers. Lynk, Greatorex, Wood and a few others created an alternative Union in the belief their pits would be saved from the axe. The irony is they weren't yet they advised IM on how to get round NUM rules in an attempt to weaken AS. Its like some of the existing staff at SUFC create a new Sheffield United, get them to play in blue and white stripes and does its best to bankrupt the existing club. Yet at the end of the day both clubs go out of existence. Would you forgive and forget that?

Previous strikes had lasted no more than 8 weeks. As the weeks went by positions became politically entrenched. Violence occurred on both sides but the actions of the police at Orgreave were shameful. Yet in October a weary IM called AS in for negotiations as public pressure was growing to end the dispute. AS recounted to a colleague of mine what happened next. They had all but agreed a return to work when IM asked for a recess. AS saw IM on the phone in the corridor. When he returned to the meeting all bets were of. AS was convinced it was Thatcher who was on the phone refusing any compromise as she wanted to be seen to be grinding down the Unions.

The mining community was loyal and proud and not militant prior to 1982. My mothers side were Miners, my cousins had the same experiences as LSF. Yes the industry had archaic working practices, was resistant to change and had a militant union leader. Yet there were still a considerable number of profitable and sustainable pits. There had to be change. Unfortunately the Industry and communities became victims of a class ideology war between Privatisation and Nationalisation, Government v Unions, Left v Right. The end was more rapid than it should have been leaving a legacy of bitterness that remains to-day.

The mining industry had some of the best training schemes in the country and a skilled work force enabling many to pursue new opportunities following redundancy and avoid future health problems being out of the working conditions. I was studying my final year in management development and training at the time and was asked regularly to comment in the Industrial relations class on the strategic implications of the dispute. As a result I went onto study Law which shaped my future for the better.

Oh boy! What an excellent insight to the inner workings of what happened behind those closed doors.
Thanks Addison, a considered and informed summary of some of the many events that made up a year from hell for many reasons.

 

[Ludgblade64]

The reason gas boilers are being phased out has nothing to do with gas being expensive (presently). It’s purely a climate change thing to get people changed over to ground source heat.

Gas and oil prices are currently high, partly for the reliance on Russia, partly for lack of production and partly for putting our eggs into the heavily subsidised (at consumers cost) renewables.

Do you think that replacing gas boilers with heat pumps is due to climate change, what climate change, people can't afford heat pumps, or electric cars, we are being conned by the Feed in tariff, it's called capitalism, the energy used to create the renewables is far too expensive, at present.

Gas is coming from the North Sea, and oil comes from the middle east, and coal from Australia, we are selling Gas and Electric to France, and Norway via pipe lines and cables, since 2016, therefore we are exporting energy. We also get energy from France, through their nuclear power stations via are national grid system.

It has nothing to do with Russia, it mainly supplies fuel to Europe, but not the UK. it is to do with Gas and oil running out, in the world. Therefore Gas/Oil companies are making a killing while they can, before the wells run dry

 

[Gerritforud]

I was close to what was happening on the management side of the NCB during the 84/85 strike working for Government on a consultancy basis having previously been employed by the NCB. I was in and out of Hobart House NCB Headquarters giving advice on EEC funding across a range of issues, one being retraining for redundant workers.

The European and Coal Steel Community policies of the EEC had impacted financially on both industries with the influx of cheaper imports. Thatcher wanted to reduce the amount of subsidies, the solution, Privatisation. To achieve this they had to be profitable, enter the axeman Ian Mcgregor. Having downsized the Steel industry in record time IM was installed as NCB Chairman and the scene was set for confrontation with the passing of the 1984 Industrial Relations Act requiring secret ballots for industrial action.

IM set about purging NCB management sympathetic to the unions. I know because my ex boss mysteriously retired a few weeks after suggesting to IM that they should discuss the rationalisation plans with the Unions. Pits had always closed but within a defined criteria whereby reserves were virtually exhausted or conditions underground were not safe. IM came in and tore the rule book up and insisted on new criteria for what determined profitability at a pit. This put at risk 20 pits immediately but NCB management realised that if applied rigorously it affected more than half the 170 pits still working meaning in excess of 85,000 could lose their jobs. IM was belligerent and insisted on lists being drawn up secretly. I saw one of the early versions in later years, it had near to 100 pits on it, most with years of workable reserves left. IM was having his strings pulled by Thatcher as he refused to listen to the more pragmatic managers who proposed a phased approach to closures through negotiation. I'm certain the rumour at the time that it was NCB management that leaked the list to AS was true. They could see the Industry being decimated.

I've commented before on how I felt AS got it wrong strategically over the strike but not even he would anticipate that IM encouraged by Thatcher was secretly negotiating with Roy Lynk and a few other members of the Nottinghamshire NUM to form a breakaway union. Its true to say during the first few weeks of March 1984 99% of miners were supportive of the strike, jobs were at risk not pay. There was an expectation a ballot would follow in the next few weeks, it didn't.

To understand the depth of feeling towards Nottingham you have to look at the Union of Democratic Mineworkers. Lynk, Greatorex, Wood and a few others created an alternative Union in the belief their pits would be saved from the axe. The irony is they weren't yet they advised IM on how to get round NUM rules in an attempt to weaken AS. Its like some of the existing staff at SUFC create a new Sheffield United, get them to play in blue and white stripes and does its best to bankrupt the existing club. Yet at the end of the day both clubs go out of existence. Would you forgive and forget that?

Previous strikes had lasted no more than 8 weeks. As the weeks went by positions became politically entrenched. Violence occurred on both sides but the actions of the police at Orgreave were shameful. Yet in October a weary IM called AS in for negotiations as public pressure was growing to end the dispute. AS recounted to a colleague of mine what happened next. They had all but agreed a return to work when IM asked for a recess. AS saw IM on the phone in the corridor. When he returned to the meeting all bets were of. AS was convinced it was Thatcher who was on the phone refusing any compromise as she wanted to be seen to be grinding down the Unions.

The mining community was loyal and proud and not militant prior to 1982. My mothers side were Miners, my cousins had the same experiences as LSF. Yes the industry had archaic working practices, was resistant to change and had a militant union leader. Yet there were still a considerable number of profitable and sustainable pits. There had to be change. Unfortunately the Industry and communities became victims of a class ideology war between Privatisation and Nationalisation, Government v Unions, Left v Right. The end was more rapid than it should have been leaving a legacy of bitterness that remains to-day.

The mining industry had some of the best training schemes in the country and a skilled work force enabling many to pursue new opportunities following redundancy and avoid future health problems being out of the working conditions. I was studying my final year in management development and training at the time and was asked regularly to comment in the Industrial relations class on the strategic implications of the dispute. As a result I went onto study Law which shaped my future for the better.

I was close to what was happening on the management side of the NCB during the 84/85 strike working for Government on a consultancy basis having previously been employed by the NCB. I was in and out of Hobart House NCB Headquarters giving advice on EEC funding across a range of issues, one being retraining for redundant workers.

The European and Coal Steel Community policies of the EEC had impacted financially on both industries with the influx of cheaper imports. Thatcher wanted to reduce the amount of subsidies, the solution, Privatisation. To achieve this they had to be profitable, enter the axeman Ian Mcgregor. Having downsized the Steel industry in record time IM was installed as NCB Chairman and the scene was set for confrontation with the passing of the 1984 Industrial Relations Act requiring secret ballots for industrial action.

IM set about purging NCB management sympathetic to the unions. I know because my ex boss mysteriously retired a few weeks after suggesting to IM that they should discuss the rationalisation plans with the Unions. Pits had always closed but within a defined criteria whereby reserves were virtually exhausted or conditions underground were not safe. IM came in and tore the rule book up and insisted on new criteria for what determined profitability at a pit. This put at risk 20 pits immediately but NCB management realised that if applied rigorously it affected more than half the 170 pits still working meaning in excess of 85,000 could lose their jobs. IM was belligerent and insisted on lists being drawn up secretly. I saw one of the early versions in later years, it had near to 100 pits on it, most with years of workable reserves left. IM was having his strings pulled by Thatcher as he refused to listen to the more pragmatic managers who proposed a phased approach to closures through negotiation. I'm certain the rumour at the time that it was NCB management that leaked the list to AS was true. They could see the Industry being decimated.

I've commented before on how I felt AS got it wrong strategically over the strike but not even he would anticipate that IM encouraged by Thatcher was secretly negotiating with Roy Lynk and a few other members of the Nottinghamshire NUM to form a breakaway union. Its true to say during the first few weeks of March 1984 99% of miners were supportive of the strike, jobs were at risk not pay. There was an expectation a ballot would follow in the next few weeks, it didn't.

To understand the depth of feeling towards Nottingham you have to look at the Union of Democratic Mineworkers. Lynk, Greatorex, Wood and a few others created an alternative Union in the belief their pits would be saved from the axe. The irony is they weren't yet they advised IM on how to get round NUM rules in an attempt to weaken AS. Its like some of the existing staff at SUFC create a new Sheffield United, get them to play in blue and white stripes and does its best to bankrupt the existing club. Yet at the end of the day both clubs go out of existence. Would you forgive and forget that?

Previous strikes had lasted no more than 8 weeks. As the weeks went by positions became politically entrenched. Violence occurred on both sides but the actions of the police at Orgreave were shameful. Yet in October a weary IM called AS in for negotiations as public pressure was growing to end the dispute. AS recounted to a colleague of mine what happened next. They had all but agreed a return to work when IM asked for a recess. AS saw IM on the phone in the corridor. When he returned to the meeting all bets were of. AS was convinced it was Thatcher who was on the phone refusing any compromise as she wanted to be seen to be grinding down the Unions.

The mining community was loyal and proud and not militant prior to 1982. My mothers side were Miners, my cousins had the same experiences as LSF. Yes the industry had archaic working practices, was resistant to change and had a militant union leader. Yet there were still a considerable number of profitable and sustainable pits. There had to be change. Unfortunately the Industry and communities became victims of a class ideology war between Privatisation and Nationalisation, Government v Unions, Left v Right. The end was more rapid than it should have been leaving a legacy of bitterness that remains to-day.

The mining industry had some of the best training schemes in the country and a skilled work force enabling many to pursue new opportunities following redundancy and avoid future health problems being out of the working conditions. I was studying my final year in management development and training at the time and was asked regularly to comment in the Industrial relations class on the strategic implications of the dispute. As a result I went onto study Law which shaped my future for the better.

This! All you right leaning selfish pricks, should read his post 5 times minimum and attempt to grasp the facts. The strike was the pivotal moment where our country was sold down the river to corporate greed and the birth of whataboutism!

 

[SwissBlade]

Do you think that replacing gas boilers with heat pumps is due to climate change, what climate change, people can't afford heat pumps, or electric cars, we are being conned by the Feed in tariff, it's called capitalism, the energy used to create the renewables is far too expensive, at present.

Gas is coming from the North Sea, and oil comes from the middle east, and coal from Australia, we are selling Gas and Electric to France, and Norway via pipe lines and cables, since 2016, therefore we are exporting energy. We also get energy from France, through their nuclear power stations via are national grid system.

It has nothing to do with Russia, it mainly supplies fuel to Europe, but not the UK. it is to do with Gas and oil running out, in the world. Therefore Gas/Oil companies are making a killing while they can, before the wells run dry

The boiler switchover is part of net zero pledges. I don’t agree that it will make a difference that it’s being sold as, but nor do i believe that electric cars will do that either.

Gas and oil both come from the North Sea, they also come from the USA, Canada, Africa, the Middle East and Russia.

However, the oil and gas prices have increased considerably as a direct result of the conflict in Ukraine and as a result of uncertainty of supply.

UK production is at a very low level, this is as a result of pressure from greens over the last decade and the lack of investment in UK offshore production. This can be changed but it won’t be immediate.

All of Europe is panicking over supply of gas, which is the predominant energy source provided into Europe and this comes via Russia and it was cheap - because it came in huge volumes This risk means that everyone is scrambling to get gas via other sources - which is not as cost effective and result available

We haven’t exported Gas to Norway since 2015 and that was in extremely limited volumes as we import from them them via Langeled and others.

There are huge deposits of oil and gas and it’s easy to talk of them as one resource. They’re also extracted in very different ways and with technologies. The known and recoverable oil reserves in the 1970-80’s were very conservatively estimated. To what they are known as now and what is recoverable. The technology used nowadays to repressurise an oil well can recover considerably more.

The problem in the uk compared to other parts of the world, Saudi and Iraq as good examples is cost of recovery. North Sea cost of recovery is in excess of $50 a barrel, whereas Iraq is below $10 so it makes more sense when the oil price is low not to exploit the North Sea reserves. Given that Brent is at $113 today and has been consistently above $80 since the start of the year it’s no wonder we’re looking to open up more fields in the North Sea

 

[Booker4]

It's sad when people use the 'nothing you can say' statement when faced with historic precedence. Thatcher was always a long way from perfect, but this nation when she took power was slumped on the ropes and sinking to its knees, simply because of the invested power of collectives largely funded by coins from the rank and file's pockets but mainly from interested parties behind the Iron Curtain. Callaghan was a socialist patsy and his cabinet a shambolic shower of idiots. The Labour Party back then felt it's debt to the union movement was so deep that it sat on it's hands whilst inflation rocketed, boosted by spiralling wage demands. It was a left foot/right foot scenario, and Labour could do nothing about it but go cap in hand to the IMF. You hate Thatcher? They gave you Thatcher. Think on also that in 1982, she was a year away from the polls with spiralling unemployment, a massive trade deficit, and the economy tanking again. Yet all Labour could put up was Michael fucking Foot, Tony Benn, Tam Dalyell and the rest of the schonky Marxists fag-stinky convening rooms were full of. I went to a Labour meeting in 1984 hosted by Denzil Davies, the then Shadow Defence Secretary and I was fucking horrified at the language being uttered. My dad, a AEU and AUEW convener and shop steward described his meetings in exactly the same way - it was like a fucking Shakespearean play, with the most bizarre references and language being used leaving you with no doubt, this movement was fucking done. Archaic, antediluvian and out-of-touch. A complete fucking shambles. And it would stay like that throughout the Kinnock years until the brief glimpse of hope with John Smith, the greatest Prime Minister we never had.

So please try to understand that Thatcher was a cunt, but she was enabled thus by Labour - and it's inbred Marxist movement. It is a strange repeating of history today with Starmer this generation's Kinnock, picking up the wreckage from Corbyn who has basically enabled a fat buffoon to get away with literal murder and will do until they get their shit together, purge the left and get their locomotive back on track with a votable PM elect. And no, I don't mean Streeting either.

pommpey

It is really interesting reading Pompey, I don't agree with a lot of it, but I can see where you're coming from and I do bow to the fact that you've lived through it. However back to today and I notice you're critical of the left in Labour, but then look back on when Labour was centre-left, under Blair, that era is largely criticised by many other than, ironically many Tories, and obviously Blairites. I'm a member of Labour so naturally I have an interest. I don't agree with everything on the left, but at the same time I do not want a return to Blairite politics as an alternative to Boris, so when you say we need to get our crap together, I actually think that it doesn't mean we rid Labour of the left but we embrace those from the left and at the same time those on the centre should be respected also, it's a broad church, and I believe Andy Burnham is the leader we need, Stammer is someone few relate to, even though much of what he says I agree with and he's worked hard to get where he has.

I disagree on Kinnock, a man who I liked, but I agree totally on John Smith, a real tragedy there.

Anyway, many on here will not want anymore politics, so I'll ask what's your score predictions for tomorrow? I'm going 2 - 1 Blades (heart) 3 - 1 Forest (head).

I was close to what was happening on the management side of the NCB during the 84/85 strike working for Government on a consultancy basis having previously been employed by the NCB. I was in and out of Hobart House NCB Headquarters giving advice on EEC funding across a range of issues, one being retraining for redundant workers.

The European and Coal Steel Community policies of the EEC had impacted financially on both industries with the influx of cheaper imports. Thatcher wanted to reduce the amount of subsidies, the solution, Privatisation. To achieve this they had to be profitable, enter the axeman Ian Mcgregor. Having downsized the Steel industry in record time IM was installed as NCB Chairman and the scene was set for confrontation with the passing of the 1984 Industrial Relations Act requiring secret ballots for industrial action.

IM set about purging NCB management sympathetic to the unions. I know because my ex boss mysteriously retired a few weeks after suggesting to IM that they should discuss the rationalisation plans with the Unions. Pits had always closed but within a defined criteria whereby reserves were virtually exhausted or conditions underground were not safe. IM came in and tore the rule book up and insisted on new criteria for what determined profitability at a pit. This put at risk 20 pits immediately but NCB management realised that if applied rigorously it affected more than half the 170 pits still working meaning in excess of 85,000 could lose their jobs. IM was belligerent and insisted on lists being drawn up secretly. I saw one of the early versions in later years, it had near to 100 pits on it, most with years of workable reserves left. IM was having his strings pulled by Thatcher as he refused to listen to the more pragmatic managers who proposed a phased approach to closures through negotiation. I'm certain the rumour at the time that it was NCB management that leaked the list to AS was true. They could see the Industry being decimated.

I've commented before on how I felt AS got it wrong strategically over the strike but not even he would anticipate that IM encouraged by Thatcher was secretly negotiating with Roy Lynk and a few other members of the Nottinghamshire NUM to form a breakaway union. Its true to say during the first few weeks of March 1984 99% of miners were supportive of the strike, jobs were at risk not pay. There was an expectation a ballot would follow in the next few weeks, it didn't.

To understand the depth of feeling towards Nottingham you have to look at the Union of Democratic Mineworkers. Lynk, Greatorex, Wood and a few others created an alternative Union in the belief their pits would be saved from the axe. The irony is they weren't yet they advised IM on how to get round NUM rules in an attempt to weaken AS. Its like some of the existing staff at SUFC create a new Sheffield United, get them to play in blue and white stripes and does its best to bankrupt the existing club. Yet at the end of the day both clubs go out of existence. Would you forgive and forget that?

Previous strikes had lasted no more than 8 weeks. As the weeks went by positions became politically entrenched. Violence occurred on both sides but the actions of the police at Orgreave were shameful. Yet in October a weary IM called AS in for negotiations as public pressure was growing to end the dispute. AS recounted to a colleague of mine what happened next. They had all but agreed a return to work when IM asked for a recess. AS saw IM on the phone in the corridor. When he returned to the meeting all bets were of. AS was convinced it was Thatcher who was on the phone refusing any compromise as she wanted to be seen to be grinding down the Unions.

The mining community was loyal and proud and not militant prior to 1982. My mothers side were Miners, my cousins had the same experiences as LSF. Yes the industry had archaic working practices, was resistant to change and had a militant union leader. Yet there were still a considerable number of profitable and sustainable pits. There had to be change. Unfortunately the Industry and communities became victims of a class ideology war between Privatisation and Nationalisation, Government v Unions, Left v Right. The end was more rapid than it should have been leaving a legacy of bitterness that remains to-day.

The mining industry had some of the best training schemes in the country and a skilled work force enabling many to pursue new opportunities following redundancy and avoid future health problems being out of the working conditions. I was studying my final year in management development and training at the time and was asked regularly to comment in the Industrial relations class on the strategic implications of the dispute. As a result I went onto study Law which shaped my future for the better.

Another really interesting post Addison, and the part on the UDM is why there's bitterness for many from that era towards Notts. It is interesting that South Derbyshire were also part of the UDM I believe and yet you never hear scabs said to Derby fans, not sure why there?

 

[pommpey]

As ever you make your points in the usual inimitable, eloquent some may say, style.
However, on the ballot issue, you are somewhat wide of the mark (see my 2nd post on this thread for reference).
Beyond that, some of what you say is pure conjecture. I've tried to stick to my experiences from the inside of the situation.
All healthy debate, regardless.

All opinions are contextual. Having lived through the abject misery of the 1972-1978 period whereby the unions broke the country and destroyed it's manufacturing reputation for mere political heft, there was no way Scargill would have got an inch in on Thatcher. His ego however told him otherwise. My experiences outside of the situation was that the Miner's Strike was not denting Thatcher's paintwork. It did however polarise previously solid mining communities, radicalise many who couldn't see the writing on the wall and make many, many hard grafting individuals abjectly miserable, in many cases by menace or by force.

Wide of the mark or not, Scargill knew he would never secure universal consensus for a strike and he did not ballot, which was constitutionally wrong. He knew the strike wouldn't last more than three months and instead dragged the people he was meant to represent and care for along behind his runaway express train. And he achieved nothing. The more the left roar, the louder the right's voice is heard. Scargill, like Callghan, like Foot, simply extended Thatcher's tenure.

I'm not lionising Thatcher. I give her credit for breaking the unions' stranglehold on industry and progress because had she not, this nation would be in such a fucking state today, more than it is now.

pommpey

 

[pommpey]

This! All you right leaning selfish pricks, should read his post 5 times minimum and attempt to grasp the facts. The strike was the pivotal moment where our country was sold down the river to corporate greed and the birth of whataboutism!

Whereas the correct path was to keep pits open, subsidise the industry, reject automation, reject efficiency measures and keep ten miners on where one miner would do.
Sure thing.

Portsmouth Dockyard back in the 80s was practically the same. Every one of the Pompey Dockies a 'Civil Servant', heavily unionised, four people would turn up for one fucking job. None of them could do it, they'd defer it into overtime and the weekend or backshift where the stories of the workforce converting their toolchests into beds and getting their nappers down (whilst on 2.5 x time) all night then driving taxis the next day and delaying ships sailing from maintenance periods to extend their work is fucking legendary. And at four o'clock, previously 'disabled' ('Can't do it mush. I have a bad back') workers would be seen happily cycling out of Unicorn Gate right on the fucking siren. If government management happened by to question the huge bill for maintaining ships the workforce walked off the ships. And don't talk to me about safety at work or the fact that 'rabbit jobs' (private work) was done in work time or theft of government funded equipment was jawdropping. Again, guilty bastards, if caught, were shrouded in union protection and escaped scot-free.

Fortunately the whole fucking shitshow was privatised to the yingers, many of the incapables (previously protected 'brothers') were pensioned off and the unions were stymied. After going through a number of changes of face, its now mainly run by BAE Systems, with a myriad of subcontractor and stakeholder inputs, all driven by a MoD/Prime contractor shared bonus scheme. Every minute of overtime is accounted for and ships generally meet their deadlines.

How the fuck 'our country' was 'sold down the river' you fail to illustrate. Simply because Thatcher leveraged the stupidity and vanity of one man on a fucked up crusade to be the next Lech Walesa doesn't measure up to what actually happened, succinctly described in that tract.

pommpey

 

[pommpey]

I was close to what was happening on the management side of the NCB during the 84/85 strike working for Government on a consultancy basis having previously been employed by the NCB. I was in and out of Hobart House NCB Headquarters giving advice on EEC funding across a range of issues, one being retraining for redundant workers.

The European and Coal Steel Community policies of the EEC had impacted financially on both industries with the influx of cheaper imports. Thatcher wanted to reduce the amount of subsidies, the solution, Privatisation. To achieve this they had to be profitable, enter the axeman Ian Mcgregor. Having downsized the Steel industry in record time IM was installed as NCB Chairman and the scene was set for confrontation with the passing of the 1984 Industrial Relations Act requiring secret ballots for industrial action.

IM set about purging NCB management sympathetic to the unions. I know because my ex boss mysteriously retired a few weeks after suggesting to IM that they should discuss the rationalisation plans with the Unions. Pits had always closed but within a defined criteria whereby reserves were virtually exhausted or conditions underground were not safe. IM came in and tore the rule book up and insisted on new criteria for what determined profitability at a pit. This put at risk 20 pits immediately but NCB management realised that if applied rigorously it affected more than half the 170 pits still working meaning in excess of 85,000 could lose their jobs. IM was belligerent and insisted on lists being drawn up secretly. I saw one of the early versions in later years, it had near to 100 pits on it, most with years of workable reserves left. IM was having his strings pulled by Thatcher as he refused to listen to the more pragmatic managers who proposed a phased approach to closures through negotiation. I'm certain the rumour at the time that it was NCB management that leaked the list to AS was true. They could see the Industry being decimated.

I've commented before on how I felt AS got it wrong strategically over the strike but not even he would anticipate that IM encouraged by Thatcher was secretly negotiating with Roy Lynk and a few other members of the Nottinghamshire NUM to form a breakaway union. Its true to say during the first few weeks of March 1984 99% of miners were supportive of the strike, jobs were at risk not pay. There was an expectation a ballot would follow in the next few weeks, it didn't.

To understand the depth of feeling towards Nottingham you have to look at the Union of Democratic Mineworkers. Lynk, Greatorex, Wood and a few others created an alternative Union in the belief their pits would be saved from the axe. The irony is they weren't yet they advised IM on how to get round NUM rules in an attempt to weaken AS. Its like some of the existing staff at SUFC create a new Sheffield United, get them to play in blue and white stripes and does its best to bankrupt the existing club. Yet at the end of the day both clubs go out of existence. Would you forgive and forget that?

Previous strikes had lasted no more than 8 weeks. As the weeks went by positions became politically entrenched. Violence occurred on both sides but the actions of the police at Orgreave were shameful. Yet in October a weary IM called AS in for negotiations as public pressure was growing to end the dispute. AS recounted to a colleague of mine what happened next. They had all but agreed a return to work when IM asked for a recess. AS saw IM on the phone in the corridor. When he returned to the meeting all bets were of. AS was convinced it was Thatcher who was on the phone refusing any compromise as she wanted to be seen to be grinding down the Unions.

The mining community was loyal and proud and not militant prior to 1982. My mothers side were Miners, my cousins had the same experiences as LSF. Yes the industry had archaic working practices, was resistant to change and had a militant union leader. Yet there were still a considerable number of profitable and sustainable pits. There had to be change. Unfortunately the Industry and communities became victims of a class ideology war between Privatisation and Nationalisation, Government v Unions, Left v Right. The end was more rapid than it should have been leaving a legacy of bitterness that remains to-day.

The mining industry had some of the best training schemes in the country and a skilled work force enabling many to pursue new opportunities following redundancy and avoid future health problems being out of the working conditions. I was studying my final year in management development and training at the time and was asked regularly to comment in the Industrial relations class on the strategic implications of the dispute. As a result I went onto study Law which shaped my future for the better.

Thanks Addison. Excellent account.

pommpey

 

[GreasyChipBeattie]

Beats me why 'we' shout 'scabs' at people who most likely aren't even there

 

[Greasy Chap Butty]

Pains me to agree with you, but I do. Totally.
The mining industry was basically shafting the country right up the arse to the neck vertebrae, and needed a dose of reality, which it got.
Thatcher doing it was incidental, and yes I agree there may have been a huge dose of "fuck the working class" from her that's made the hatred for her reverberate down labour class generation's till this day, but it was needed.
Scargill was a fucking tool.
As for the whole scab thing, it's like Wednesday still harking on about being in Europe and having 600'000'000 fans on the kop at every game. No one under 30 experienced or can speak of it like they were there.
Sorry Fred, but I won't be investing and I'm oot. :/

Foxy , security alert ,some bloke has hijacked Knowsnowt account.

 

[LSF]

All opinions are contextual. Having lived through the abject misery of the 1972-1978 period whereby the unions broke the country and destroyed it's manufacturing reputation for mere political heft, there was no way Scargill would have got an inch in on Thatcher. His ego however told him otherwise. My experiences outside of the situation was that the Miner's Strike was not denting Thatcher's paintwork. It did however polarise previously solid mining communities, radicalise many who couldn't see the writing on the wall and make many, many hard grafting individuals abjectly miserable, in many cases by menace or by force.

Wide of the mark or not, Scargill knew he would never secure universal consensus for a strike and he did not ballot, which was constitutionally wrong. He knew the strike wouldn't last more than three months and instead dragged the people he was meant to represent and care for along behind his runaway express train. And he achieved nothing. The more the left roar, the louder the right's voice is heard. Scargill, like Callghan, like Foot, simply extended Thatcher's tenure.

I'm not lionising Thatcher. I give her credit for breaking the unions' stranglehold on industry and progress because had she not, this nation would be in such a fucking state today, more than it is now.

pommpey

Again, powerfully argued but a couple of crucial points to take issue with.

Scargill didn't need an overwhelming majority to win another ballot, he needed a simple majority. He chose not to take that route and refer back to an earlier ballot which gave him the mandate he needed. Tactically wrong in my opinion, quite why he thought he wouldn't win another ballot, I could never fathom. A latent insecurity maybe. As someone on the inside of the fence I was always in favour of another ballot as we would have been much stronger in the face of what eventually transpired.
I don't expect you to agree with me on any of this but just respect the point of view and insider experience of someone who saw it different and I'm sure more emotively, it was my livelihood.
Just as you post so knowledgeably and emotively on military, naval and defence issues (which I have neither knowledge or experience of despite taking interest in such stuff).
Also, in such a large workforce, there will always be dissenters, disagreements etc. At our branch meetings, feelings ran high and debate was passionate, votes were show of hands and no one was shy at voting against stuff. But I can honestly say the overwhelming majority were solidly behind the strike for the right reasons.
That's my last take on this and a bit of me regrets being drawn in, but at least it's been generally respectful by most participants.
On a side note Pommps, I've an amusing anecdote regarding our mutual friend Wallace C during the strike, I'll get round to recounting to you one day .

 

[Chris the Blade]

This! All you right leaning selfish pricks, should read his post 5 times minimum and attempt to grasp the facts. The strike was the pivotal moment where our country was sold down the river to corporate greed and the birth of whataboutism!

One word...nonsense

 

[pommpey]

Again, powerfully argued but a couple of crucial points to take issue with.

Scargill didn't need an overwhelming majority to win another ballot, he needed a simple majority. He chose not to take that route and refer back to an earlier ballot which gave him the mandate he needed. Tactically wrong in my opinion, quite why he thought he wouldn't win another ballot, I could never fathom. A latent insecurity maybe. As someone on the inside of the fence I was always in favour of another ballot as we would have been much stronger in the face of what eventually transpired.
I don't expect you to agree with me on any of this but just respect the point of view and insider experience of someone who saw it different and I'm sure more emotively, it was my livelihood.
Just as you post so knowledgeably and emotively on military, naval and defence issues (which I have neither knowledge or experience of despite taking interest in such stuff).
Also, in such a large workforce, there will always be dissenters, disagreements etc. At our branch meetings, feelings ran high and debate was passionate, votes were show of hands and no one was shy at voting against stuff. But I can honestly say the overwhelming majority were solidly behind the strike for the right reasons.
That's my last take on this and a bit of me regrets being drawn in, but at least it's been generally respectful by most participants.
On a side note Pommps, I've an amusing anecdote regarding our mutual friend Wallace C during the strike, I'll get round to recounting to you one day .

Very grateful for your balanced argument on this. I will never offer 'my take' on anything is right. It's an opinion. As as you say, some people have a shitload more perspective. From my angle, industrial action to at least save some pits and some jobs and soften the blow of inevitable closure of the industry. I'd say also the strike did far more societal damage than the usual tropes involving Thatcher. It broke many, many people, their families and their communities. All that energy could have been positively redirected into reskilling a vast workforce of grafters instead of using them as footsoldiers marching slowly into the gunfire.

And as said, coal mining and coal use is over. regardless of Johnsons fucked up endeavours, the environmental lobby quite rightly will never let it get off the ground.

pommpey

 

[MagnifiqueShorehamStreet]

What this thread goes to show,is that the club, have supporters who share wildly different views and opinions, and the only thing that remotely unites us is our love of the Blades.
Quite frankly some of the opinions on here, from a club, who is mostly made up of working class people, has shocked me, and I get the feeling that if I met some of the Tory apologists,on here,under any other circumstances than supporting the Blades, I wouldn’t give them the time of day.
`I’m sure they feel the same about me.
It certainly explains the continuing popularity in some quarters of this disdainful and worn out government led by an egocentric liar with no integrity or moral compass.

 

[Gerritforud]

Very grateful for your balanced argument on this. I will never offer 'my take' on anything is right. It's an opinion. As as you say, some people have a shitload more perspective. From my angle, industrial action to at least save some pits and some jobs and soften the blow of inevitable closure of the industry. I'd say also the strike did far more societal damage than the usual tropes involving Thatcher. It broke many, many people, their families and their communities. All that energy could have been positively redirected into reskilling a vast workforce of grafters instead of using them as footsoldiers marching slowly into the gunfire.

And as said, coal mining and coal use is over. regardless of Johnsons fucked up endeavours, the environmental lobby quite rightly will never let it get off the ground.

pommpey

Ah so eloquently written, a paragraph, exposing your lack of ability to listen. Failure to listen to first-hand evidence from the people actually in the dispute. You clearly made your mind up decades ago and spent the time since convincing others you know best. You're wrong on many levels, if you take the time to really open-mindedly read Addisons post you could learn why, you won't though, you think you know best.
"And as said, coal mining and coal use is over." We are still importing it to Radcliff-on-soar, West Burton and Drax.
Filling a post with well written drivel and misinformed rhetoric doesn't make you any less wrong!

 

[pommpey]

Ah so eloquently written, a paragraph, exposing your lack of ability to listen. Failure to listen to first-hand evidence from the people actually in the dispute.

Why? Were you 'in the dispute'? And can you expand on 'sold down the river' again?

You clearly made your mind up decades ago and spent the time since convincing others you know best.

Speak for yourself

You're wrong on many levels, if you take the time to really open-mindedly read Addisons post you could learn why, you won't though, you think you know best.

You fail to explain why I am 'wrong on so many levels'. And yes, there's plenty in Addison's post to illustrate and reinforce what a dismal clusterfuck Scargill was and what was put the way of the communities to reskill in the event of inevitable downscaling and closures

"And as said, coal mining and coal use is over." We are still importing it to Radcliff-on-soar, West Burton and Drax.

Drax stopped using coal last year. Radcliff will be done with coal in 2024 and West Burton A will close in September this year. So, yeah, 'over'. Remind me who is wrong on so many levels again ...

Filling a post with well written drivel and misinformed rhetoric doesn't make you any less wrong!

Yes. I agree. You need to fucking stop then.

pommpey

 

[Gerritforud]

I'll reply once to your poor response..
Why? Were you 'in the dispute'? And can you expand on 'sold down the river' again?

I was 13 years old my dad a turner at Firth Browns and my mum care worker, who also acted as Treasurer for South Yorkshire Women against pit closures. As such I was dragged along to the picket lines, Cortonwood and Kiverton mainly. I saw first-hand Coppers/Army kick, punch and spit at the women who felt no option but to form picket lines after laws were quickly made to make it illegal for the men to do so(you make no mention of the use of law to make the act of striking illegal, you just call, it illegal...). I saw a man dragged from a crowd of miners ready to batter him, by my dad and handed to the chief inspector in charge of operations, he'd been caught throwing rocks at the police from the back of the crowd, no-one knew him. The inspector thanked him with a wry smile, and he was ushered into a van and driven away.
Sold down the river speak for it's self.

Read addisons post 4 more times.

Again, you tell lies like truths!?... You wrote "coal use is over"
I can see Radcliiff and west Burton from my house! I know when they are burning imported coal.(and many more have been since the 80's)
2 of Draxes 6 units have never stopped burning imported coal still do to this day. "
Drax had planned to fully shut its two remaining coal plants in September 2022 and convert them to biomass. The plants have already been called back into action in the past two weeks to help plug a supply gap."

You need to learn that filling a page with drivel is no substitute for the truth. You've been proved WRONG admit it or fuck off out of my face!

 

[pommpey]

I was 13 years old my dad a turner at Firth Browns and my mum care worker ...

... and it fucking goes on. We all have relatives on one side or another in this game. My uncle, for example. Pit man all his life and one of Scargill's right hand men. When I visited him recently his kitchen still has a shrine to all of this. And yes. Arrested and battered by South Yorkshire's finest. He found himself at Grunwick too. Don't ask me why or how. It's the nature of unionism, isn't it? Needless to say I have respect for him, but disagree on every notion he holds on this. A fine, proud man, reduced to ashes by industrial action. My dad was a fitter and turner at FB too and involved in unionism. It disgusted him in the end.

And 'sold down the river' doesn't speak for itself. It sounds very much like the tropes and slogans many left leaning blowhards utter in some romanticised vision of honour. Call it classist. Call it naive. Call it anti-revisionist. Given your yardstick, we'd still be mired in eternal strikes, power cuts and an eternal spiral of wage hikes and inflation spikes with berks like Scargill, or his progeny 'selling the country' to our mate Putin whilst being in hock to the World Bank and IMF, and hundreds of thousands of acres of archaic industrial estate producing minimal output for an international customer base of nil.

Glad you can see Radcliff. You'll also see that it, and it's sister stations will close soon for good with regard coal, and transferring into complex cycle gas turbine output plants. The stay of execution is temporary, you see, just while the current energy situation needs it. Then, when it happens, we're done with coal. Be happy to hear what your vision would be digging a highly polluting fossil fuel out of the ground using tens of thousands of workers with no use for it.

You need to learn that filling a page with drivel is no substitute for the truth. You've been proved WRONG admit it or fuck off out of my face!

How nice.

pommpey

 

[Once a Blade..]

Unions are not - repeat not - a bad thing. The workforce needs representation and protection against bad employer practices. But if a business is folding, and adjustments have to be made ... or if the projection is that it will have a terminal date yet the unions are insisting nothing shall change and no one will leave, then what is their function, save to prolong the inevitable?

And do yourself a favour. Thatcher planned to butcher my line of work by 35% in 1981. It was only Galtieri's ventures which paused that for eight years. The Royal Navy is one third the size in manpower and one fifth the size in assets from the day I joined, three weeks after Thatcher swept into power. So don't give me 'Thatcher-loving'. I admire her leadership and political strength. That's it. It was needed, because there was no one in her cabinet (save for Tebbit, who would have been far worse) would have had the grit and fortitude to face down the unions to stop the nation grinding to a halt. And if you think we'd have had the growth we had in the subsequent years - even under Blair - without Thatcher then you sir are severely polarised.

pommpey

Whereas the correct path was to keep pits open, subsidise the industry, reject automation, reject efficiency measures and keep ten miners on where one miner would do.
Sure thing.

Portsmouth Dockyard back in the 80s was practically the same. Every one of the Pompey Dockies a 'Civil Servant', heavily unionised, four people would turn up for one fucking job. None of them could do it, they'd defer it into overtime and the weekend or backshift where the stories of the workforce converting their toolchests into beds and getting their nappers down (whilst on 2.5 x time) all night then driving taxis the next day and delaying ships sailing from maintenance periods to extend their work is fucking legendary. And at four o'clock, previously 'disabled' ('Can't do it mush. I have a bad back') workers would be seen happily cycling out of Unicorn Gate right on the fucking siren. If government management happened by to question the huge bill for maintaining ships the workforce walked off the ships. And don't talk to me about safety at work or the fact that 'rabbit jobs' (private work) was done in work time or theft of government funded equipment was jawdropping. Again, guilty bastards, if caught, were shrouded in union protection and escaped scot-free.

Fortunately the whole fucking shitshow was privatised to the yingers, many of the incapables (previously protected 'brothers') were pensioned off and the unions were stymied. After going through a number of changes of face, its now mainly run by BAE Systems, with a myriad of subcontractor and stakeholder inputs, all driven by a MoD/Prime contractor shared bonus scheme. Every minute of overtime is accounted for and ships generally meet their deadlines.

How the fuck 'our country' was 'sold down the river' you fail to illustrate. Simply because Thatcher leveraged the stupidity and vanity of one man on a fucked up crusade to be the next Lech Walesa doesn't measure up to what actually happened, succinctly described in that tract.

pommpey

Pommpey, most of what you write is framed as ‘us’ versus ‘them’; ‘every’ dockie a ‘civil servant’ (what the does that actually mean anyway?!) versus hard working matelots. My wife is a civil servant btw and works her butt off and I bet harder than you have ever worked, and more efficiently! I too was in the ‘mob’ right through the 1980’s and the laziest fuckers out there were matelots on the look out out for a quick skive. I’m sure you remember ‘buffers party’, it was a sort of badge of honour to see how much you could ‘loaf’. The work could be difficult in the Navy, but to suggest all dockies were lazy doesn’t wash with me. In the main i would say most simply were trying to do a honest days graft! They weren’t paid to be on duty like we were; they never signed up to that like we did. One of my memories is dockies working their bollox off to make ready the ships and boats for sea before the Falklands. It’s just fucking wrong to take a cheap pop shot at these decent folk, many who will have had wives and kids and who just wanted our respect, though I doubt ‘mush’ they will have got it from you. I was a submariner until I left in the late 80’s and had a great time and look back fondly with proud memories, but I can honestly say it was the easiest piss take of a job I have ever done. Following the navy I worked as an engineer for RTZ (a proper job, well sort of) then spent 5 years retraining at university to be in child protection Social Work (the toughest most stressful work I have ever done to date - nothing comes close - and, shown naff all respect from the political right, probably for not being efficient, as you like to say! Then finally a small business owner where I make sure I share the spoils with my workers. My point is, we’ll there isn’t much of a point really, just to say that Thatcher was antagonist and divisive and didn’t care a fuck about miners or their communities. These people warranted our respect and had she demonstrated some this country down the line would have benefited massively from better working relations between workers, bosses and owners. Her legacy is one of sell off and failure based on antagonism and division, the common and ongoing philosophy of every Tory government since. The very best leaders engage and take people with them. Thatcher didn’t have a clue!

 

[Gerritforud]

... and it fucking goes on. We all have relatives on one side or another in this game. My uncle, for example. Pit man all his life and one of Scargill's right hand men. When I visited him recently his kitchen still has a shrine to all of this. And yes. Arrested and battered by South Yorkshire's finest. He found himself at Grunwick too. Don't ask me why or how. It's the nature of unionism, isn't it? Needless to say I have respect for him, but disagree on every notion he holds on this. A fine, proud man, reduced to ashes by industrial action. My dad was a fitter and turner at FB too and involved in unionism. It disgusted him in the end.

And 'sold down the river' doesn't speak for itself. It sounds very much like the tropes and slogans many left leaning blowhards utter in some romanticised vision of honour. Call it classist. Call it naive. Call it anti-revisionist. Given your yardstick, we'd still be mired in eternal strikes, power cuts and an eternal spiral of wage hikes and inflation spikes with berks like Scargill, or his progeny 'selling the country' to our mate Putin whilst being in hock to the World Bank and IMF, and hundreds of thousands of acres of archaic industrial estate producing minimal output for an international customer base of nil.

Glad you can see Radcliff. You'll also see that it, and it's sister stations will close soon for good with regard coal, and transferring into complex cycle gas turbine output plants. The stay of execution is temporary, you see, just while the current energy situation needs it. Then, when it happens, we're done with coal. Be happy to hear what your vision would be digging a highly polluting fossil fuel out of the ground using tens of thousands of workers with no use for it.



How nice.

pommpey

As I thought, you prove to be an ignorant dullard with a self-importance comparable with pigeon. You just ignore the fact you've been proved to be posting lies, only to go on writing more lies to make your point. How bad of a line have you chosen that it needs you to twist truths to vouch for it? You my boy and your "takes" can sit on the ignore bench with Steg and Knowt where you belong! I'll leave you with a snippet of Rudyard.

If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools, Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken, And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools.

 

[pommpey]

Pommpey, most of what you write is framed as ‘us’ versus ‘them’; ‘every’ dockie a ‘civil servant’ (what the does that actually mean anyway?!) versus hard working matelots.

It means that they 'worked for the crown' as the Naval Dockyards back then were in public ownership. You'll admit yourself knowing the nature of the beast, that it is incredibly difficult to moderate output on the Civil Service (of which dockies were) and almost impossible to discipline or sack them except in cases of proven and palpable gross misconduct. And yes, the Navy can be a loaf. Engineers however graft alongside and at sea and our output and sustainability is dependent upon shore support, these days optimised, but back then dreadfully facilitated.

My wife is a civil servant btw and works her butt off and I bet harder than you have ever worked, and more efficiently!

Maybe. Maybe not.

I too was in the ‘mob’ right through the 1980’s and the laziest fuckers out there were matelots on the look out out for a quick skive. I’m sure you remember ‘buffers party’, it was a sort of badge of honour to see how much you could ‘loaf’.

I can't speak for dabbers. String tying. Ringbolt kicking. Monkeys fist lobbing. Painting. Bronzying. That's it, isn't it?

One of my memories is dockies working their bollox off to make ready the ships and boats for sea before the Falklands. It’s just fucking wrong to take a cheap pop shot at these decent folk, many who will have had wives and kids and who just wanted our respect, though I doubt ‘mush’ they will have got it from you.

So once, with handsome redundancy chits in their pockets, they were asked to actually carry out work on ships to deadlines ... they delivered. Bravo.

I was a submariner until I left in the late 80’s and had a great time and look back fondly with proud memories, but I can honestly say it was the easiest piss take of a job I have ever done.

I can't speak for your line of well-remunerated service underwater. My world dealt directly with the dockies of old and what I regale all has evidential proof in the anecdotes of dockies I know and matelots who knew what went on. If you never dealt with the naval base staff like I did (and eventually worked for BAE Systems and saw the revolution which had happened on privatisation) you'd see the light. What was your interface with Pompey dockyard staff anyway?

My point is, we’ll there isn’t much of a point really, just to say that Thatcher was antagonist and divisive and didn’t care a fuck about miners or their communities.

Not sure what this leads to. Thatcher was an antagonist and divisive and as I have illustrated, not my cup of tea. I had little sympathy when she was driven out of Downing Street in tears, although I feared, quite rightly, which lavatory bowl the tories would bring in in her place. And my fears were confirmed when we engaged with Europe and ended up burned

These people warranted our respect and had she demonstrated some this country down the line would have benefited massively from better working relations between workers, bosses and owners. Her legacy is one of sell off and failure based on antagonism and division, the common and ongoing philosophy of every Tory government since. The very best leaders engage and take people with them. Thatcher didn’t have a clue!

I disagree. For all her faults and shortcomings, she was very politically astute.

pommpey

 

[pommpey]

As I thought, you prove to be an ignorant dullard with a self-importance comparable with pigeon. You just ignore the fact you've been proved to be posting lies, only to go on writing more lies to make your point. How bad of a line have you chosen that it needs you to twist truths to vouch for it? You my boy and your "takes" can sit on the ignore bench with Steg and Knowt where you belong! I'll leave you with a snippet of Rudyard.

If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools, Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken, And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools.

Fucking hell.

First of all, cheers for the ad hominem. It's appreciated, if not predictable.

Second, paraphrasing luminary poets out of context is the work of simpletons. Whilst his work in this case may resonate with your baser morals and beating revolutionary heart, Kipling was to all intents, a wealthy, privileged, pro-colonialist, pro-empiricist and Freemason and not something you'd imagine a put-upon social class warrior such as you to be citing to hammer some point or other. As far as I know (and I know) 'If' is a paen intended from father to son as a shopping list of masculine requirement, not exactly something Tressell-like to illustrate the struggles of the working man.

So stop it, eh?

pommpey

 

[Once a Blade..]

When you say you witnessed a privatisation revolution at BAE systems, following your time in the mob, is this the same company that has a very long history of corrupt arms deals and fined £300 million back in 2010, which had gone on for 20 years? Is this the kind of capitalism you were thinking about when kicking the fuck out of the dockies and civil servants? In your words, you really did see the light, and I’m sure you’re not too bothered with having a well-remunerated BAE package You’re a true Thatcherite, sir.

BAE admits guilt over corrupt arms deals

Arms firm pays out £300m after long-running Guardian investigation

amp.theguardian.com

And to think all the miners, civil servants and those dockies wanted was a fair deal. Serious question: do you really believe your own drivel?

 

[Bookers Mullet]

It's sad when people use the 'nothing you can say' statement when faced with historic precedence. Thatcher was always a long way from perfect, but this nation when she took power was slumped on the ropes and sinking to its knees, simply because of the invested power of collectives largely funded by coins from the rank and file's pockets but mainly from interested parties behind the Iron Curtain. Callaghan was a socialist patsy and his cabinet a shambolic shower of idiots. The Labour Party back then felt it's debt to the union movement was so deep that it sat on it's hands whilst inflation rocketed, boosted by spiralling wage demands. It was a left foot/right foot scenario, and Labour could do nothing about it but go cap in hand to the IMF. You hate Thatcher? They gave you Thatcher. Think on also that in 1982, she was a year away from the polls with spiralling unemployment, a massive trade deficit, and the economy tanking again. Yet all Labour could put up was Michael fucking Foot, Tony Benn, Tam Dalyell and the rest of the schonky Marxists fag-stinky convening rooms were full of. I went to a Labour meeting in 1984 hosted by Denzil Davies, the then Shadow Defence Secretary and I was fucking horrified at the language being uttered. My dad, a AEU and AUEW convener and shop steward described his meetings in exactly the same way - it was like a fucking Shakespearean play, with the most bizarre references and language being used leaving you with no doubt, this movement was fucking done. Archaic, antediluvian and out-of-touch. A complete fucking shambles. And it would stay like that throughout the Kinnock years until the brief glimpse of hope with John Smith, the greatest Prime Minister we never had.

So please try to understand that Thatcher was a cunt, but she was enabled thus by Labour - and it's inbred Marxist movement. It is a strange repeating of history today with Starmer this generation's Kinnock, picking up the wreckage from Corbyn who has basically enabled a fat buffoon to get away with literal murder and will do until they get their shit together, purge the left and get their locomotive back on track with a votable PM elect. And no, I don't mean Streeting either.

pommpey

I don't agree with everything you say, but have a massive like for saying John Smith is the greatest PM we never had, one of the biggest tragedies in recent politics was his untimely death. It still saddens me to think how we would have turned out had he got into power for at least one term

 

[SwissBlade]

I'll reply once to your poor response..
Why? Were you 'in the dispute'? And can you expand on 'sold down the river' again?

I was 13 years old my dad a turner at Firth Browns and my mum care worker, who also acted as Treasurer for South Yorkshire Women against pit closures. As such I was dragged along to the picket lines, Cortonwood and Kiverton mainly. I saw first-hand Coppers/Army kick, punch and spit at the women who felt no option but to form picket lines after laws were quickly made to make it illegal for the men to do so(you make no mention of the use of law to make the act of striking illegal, you just call, it illegal...). I saw a man dragged from a crowd of miners ready to batter him, by my dad and handed to the chief inspector in charge of operations, he'd been caught throwing rocks at the police from the back of the crowd, no-one knew him. The inspector thanked him with a wry smile, and he was ushered into a van and driven away.
Sold down the river speak for it's self.

Read addisons post 4 more times.

Again, you tell lies like truths!?... You wrote "coal use is over"
I can see Radcliiff and west Burton from my house! I know when they are burning imported coal.(and many more have been since the 80's)
2 of Draxes 6 units have never stopped burning imported coal still do to this day. "
Drax had planned to fully shut its two remaining coal plants in September 2022 and convert them to biomass. The plants have already been called back into action in the past two weeks to help plug a supply gap."

You need to learn that filling a page with drivel is no substitute for the truth. You've been proved WRONG admit it or fuck off out of my face!

According to the National Grid during the last two weeks these are the only days where coal has figured more than 0.0%

 

[pommpey]

When you say you witnessed a privatisation revolution at BAE systems, following your time in the mob, is this the same company that has a very long history of corrupt arms deals and fined £300 million back in 2010, which had gone on for 20 years? Is this the kind of capitalism you were thinking about when kicking the fuck out of the dockies and civil servants? In your words, you really did see the light, and I’m sure you’re not too bothered with having a well-remunerated BAE package You’re a true Thatcherite, sir.

BAE admits guilt over corrupt arms deals

Arms firm pays out £300m after long-running Guardian investigation

amp.theguardian.com

And to think all the miners, civil servants and those dockies wanted was a fair deal. Serious question: do you really believe your own drivel?

Nice of you to put that link up. Scrutiny of the story would tell more of what it isn't however and the characteristic Grauniad apology for shit journalism is significant? Do you believe the drivel the Grauniad writes? By such unbiased opinion formers like Afua Hirsch, for example.

Just to illustrate, BAE Systems is indeed a multinational company. Much like many defence companies, Raytheon, Babcock, General Dynamics, Boeing ... they are 'one company' mainly in name only and consitute the remnants of smaller companies they have swallowed up in either rescue, merger or takeover bids, or contract change/renewal. I could expand, but hopefully that is enough.

BAE is similarly diversified. The part which effectively runs Portsmouth Naval Base is BAE Systems Maritime - Naval Ships, which was, in the past BVT Surface Fleet (on merging with the dying Vosper Thorneycroft), BAE Systems Surface Ships and further restructuring became 'Maritime Ships' and 'Maritime Services' arms of 'Naval Ships'. Further restructuring, TUPEing of workforces and optimisation brought Babcock into the frame to run the logistics and support arms under the Common Support Model. Up north, Ships were assembled by the 'Surface Fleet Solutions' arm of BAE, itself acquisitions of the failing (and typicall, destructively unionised) Yarrow, Kaverner and Fairfields, to name a few.

So for you to fly in with 'the same company as involved with the Al Yammah scandal' shows a smidge of misunderstanding of the defence industrial and commercial structure. It's like blaming the NHS - and in particular an individual hospital or Healthcare Trust for the actions of the Hillsborough coppers. 'They all work for the government!' you yell. Yep, well observed. Let's not forget that it was a Labour government also who, when the SFO closed in on the findings to reveal the extent of the corruption, dusted them off and closed down the scrutiny with a blase 'nothing to see here' because it 'wasn't in the public interest'. So, there you go. Trebles all round and Prince Bandar, a great friend of the Bush dynasty (and therefore connected with all sorts of malfeasance, including Blair) gets his pockets lined from a fighter jet deal.

In short, those who run Portsmouth Naval Base (actually the MoD, with BAE Systems Maritime as embedded prime contractors) are as detached from that end of the ever murky business of defence provision than you can imagine. My tack is this: When the 'dockyard' (as it were) was under government stewardship it was resource-heavy, closed-shop, contractor-averse and vastly bloated and inefficient. Process-management was glacial and archaic and to provide ship support for complex warships these days (such as Type 45, Queen Elizabeth Class and the upcoming Type 26 and Type 31) would be impossible. The workforce was progress-averse and ossified in a navy that predated the Falklands Conflict by several decades and if you directly interfaced with the before and after (as I did as a civilian operational manager in the delivery end and a warship based propulsion and auxiliaries manager in uniform), you'd know what I mean by the benefits of that privatisation.

And yes, I believe in my 'drivel'. It is based on my experiences, and I still interface with both ends and design training for the whole process.

pommpey

 

[Davalon]

Love threads like these.

Always brings out the true colours of a few who usually like to hold the high ground.

 

[Once a Blade..]

Plain English please pommpey. With all that waffle how the fk can you ‘interface’ with anyone or anything?! Im guessing only guessing like, but are you the person in the meeting room who talks and talks some more with your outwardly sycophantic colleagues doing the nodding dog, whilst inwardly saying to themselves, what the fuck is he going on about?! Back to the original point you minimise/ignore in your verbose response that BAE were fined £300 million in 2010 for corrupt arms deals FACT corrupt deals that went on from around 1990 when the company was listed on the stock market. Were you interfacing during this period? Please please don’t try and draw comparisons between this scurge of company that is everything wrong about capitalism and the NHS or individual Bobby cock ups! This is a slick and ‘efficient’ company where the left hand knows exactly what the right hand is doing. You slaughter the miners, the dockyard workers and civil servants with your generalisations and in the next breath attempt to defend the heinous actions of this vile organisation. Btw, yes I do read the Guardian and this particular piece of investigative journalism was superbly executed and fundamentally accurate. No bullshit No Lies. No waffle. Though not contributing in any way shape or form to the discussion, i did appreciate your descriptive potted history of BAE. Thank you.

 

[pommpey]

Plain English please pommpey. With all that waffle how the fk can you ‘interface’ with anyone or anything?! Im guessing only guessing like, but are you the person in the meeting room who talks and talks some more with your outwardly sycophantic colleagues doing the nodding dog, whilst inwardly saying to themselves, what the fuck is he going on about?! Back to the original point you minimise/ignore in your verbose response that BAE were fined £300 million in 2010 for corrupt arms deals FACT corrupt deals that went on from around 1990 when the company was listed on the stock market. Were you interfacing during this period? Please please don’t try and draw comparisons between this scurge of company that is everything wrong about capitalism and the NHS or individual Bobby cock ups! This is a slick and ‘efficient’ company where the left hand knows exactly what the right hand is doing. You slaughter the miners, the dockyard workers and civil servants with your generalisations and in the next breath attempt to defend the heinous actions of this vile organisation. Btw, yes I do read the Guardian and this particular piece of investigative journalism was superbly executed and fundamentally accurate. No bullshit No Lies. No waffle. Though not contributing in any way shape or form to the discussion, i did appreciate your descriptive potted history of BAE. Thank you.

Gruaniad = 'superbly executed and fundamentally accurate'. Yet there is a climb down just after the headline with wrong people fingered in the 'investigation' too.

Well done.

Look, if you don't understand how defence support contracts work or the diversification and structure of big defence delivery groups, then fine. I've tried to abbreviate it and any mature, level-headed individual would deduce from my account how unionisation (in the negative sense), protectionism and similar chicanery can produce a loss making, regressive and static output. If you think those qualities are wrong, then clearly you don't understand the concept of 'growth' and 'incentivisation'. Which figures. The left always have had problems understanding this.

And yeah 'interfacing'. It's not some modern phrase. These days much of muchness is project managed, using layered, accountable, digital systems and finely tuned practices made so by success in commercial sector companies, rather than writing vague, unbudgeted job requests over a ruler and posting them in circular mailing systems, like it used to be in 'the old days'. I suppose this process would blind the fuck out of you, which is a bit sad because loads of your fellow ex-matelot colleagues manage it with aplomb, and wear BAE badged apparel, guilt-free whilst they are fixing and maintaining ships and delivering contracted services to the crown. See also Hythe Marine, General Electric, Rolls Royce, Warstila, Babcock, Furmanite and dozens of other contractors attached to warship construction and support. Jobs for literally hundreds of thousands, rather than six thousand ostensibly recalcitrant dockies. Can't think of any of them who were involved in the Al Yammah deals, though. Nice of you to characterise and offer ad hominem where needed. rest assured when I was delivering, shit got fixed and if it wasn't, it had a plan for it, rather than the old days when everything was mitigated into time and a half or more, or simply fixed by matelots themselves. Did a lot of that as well as I remember. That is a FACT (love it how people use capitals with that word, like it reinforces the FACT) Can't actually imagine how a 'scourge of company' like BAE Systems would deliver such services under any other system than capitalism in honesty. I suppose your nirvana would be everything back in public ownership such as the 'dockyards' ... and 'British Rail', even though we killed far more people on the rail network under that system than we did under privatisation. There's a FACT for ya.

pommpey

 

[Nicolaus_Copernicus]

Love threads like these.

Always brings out the true colours of a few who usually like to hold the high ground.

Pub bores, closeted class traitors & Thatcher acolytes. FACT.