JJ Sefton
Live, Laugh, Love
Bertrand Russell wrote a book called 'The Knights of Bushido' about Japanese war crimes which had me closing the book in revulsion at a few points. Iris Chang's book about Nanking is similarly awful.
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Bertrand Russell wrote a book called 'The Knights of Bushido' about Japanese war crimes which had me closing the book in revulsion at a few points. Iris Chang's book about Nanking is similarly awful.
All true. Shame we had to be fed half-truths about "not wanting regime change" and having a "mandate to protect civilians only". NATO action led to serious fighting in Misrata and Sirte that caused thousands of civilian deaths. These deaths wouldn't have occurred if we'd had just declared Bengazi and the east of the country as a safe haven, imposed a no fly zone and tough sanctions, and not gone on the offensive with the rebels.
I'm not saying NATO was wrong, just that we should have told the truth - ie that we were out to support the rebels in a civil war and depose / kill Gadaffi, and we had calculated that a certain amount of civilian casualties was acceptable.
cahill
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Pommpey
Just read your 1-6 Libyan rant. You're very naive, try reading beyond the Daily Mail and Sun newspapers for info and bias. Do you really believe that Sarkozy, Cameron, CIA and oil rich Gulf states (Quatar) give a monkeys fig about Libyan peoples rights ?
Just read your 1-6 Libyan rant. You're very naive, try reading beyond the Daily Mail and Sun newspapers for info and bias. Do you really believe that Sarkozy, Cameron, CIA and oil rich Gulf states (Quatar) give a monkeys fig about Libyan peoples rights ?
In 1956, the Tory Party (in government) was divided and the Labour opposition was strongly against the whole Suez adventure arguing (rightly) that the whole epsidoe was conducted in breach of international law (and, as was subsequently revealed, as a result of a secret conpsiracy between Britain, France and Israel).
As I am sure I don't need to remind you, individual service people are liable under international law. "I was just obeying orders" is not a defence to war crimes (of which waging aggressive war is one). Had a sufficient number of service people refused to fight on the ground that the whole exercise was illegal, the government would have almost certainly fallen and a general election held. Given the general gung ho atmosphere that arises at such times, the Tory party may well have been re-elected.
As for your comment about civil war and Soviet influence, I can only charitably assume you know little about the history of the period. The Americans were apopletic about the whole episode (it was planned without their knowledge) and basically organised informal economic sanctions until they Britain was forced to pull out.
In addition the whole thing was a gift to Soviet propagandists ("western Imperialism has not changed its spots" etc etc) and gave them sufficient cover to suppress the Hungarian uprising at the same time (Hungary having just decalred its neutrality and left the Warsaw Pact). So the general result of the Suez attack was to divide the western alliance and increase Soviet influence, whilst pretty much destroying Britain's influence in the Middle East and revealing that Britain could no longer sneeze on the world stage without the US' say so.
So if sufficient numbers of service men had refused to fight and the attack had not gone ahead, it is difficult to see how things could have been much worse.
Incidentally looked what happened in 1958 in France when there was a quasi military revolt against the government's Algeria policy. The politicians called on de Gaulle to be PM, he extricated France from Algeria and started to pursue a far more independent polict vis-a-vis the USA than Britain could ever dream of. Hardly the diaster you suggest.
P
pommpey
Guest
Thereby allowing Ghadaffi's forces to re-equip, rally and blckade the rebels, turning the east of the country into a fortress. Then the rebels would have been starved into submisssion, whereby NATO forces would be forced into being blockade busters. Not really a good result. Don't forget Yugoslavia. INaction there against aggression caused tens of thousands of deaths.
So what 'truth' do you want? What do you think the endgame is, given Libya is an oil rich country, ruled for forty odd years by a brutal, deluded despot who has serially supported terrorist acts, threatened war against neighbours and shown little compassion for his subjects ... and those subjects have finally found it in themselves to rise up and fight for their country. We're not there for sightseeing, are we? And given our 'bootd on the ground' doctrine was such a resounding success in Iraq and Afghanistan, maybe attacks from 30000 feet and fifteen miles out at sea is possibly the best policy. Go figure.
pommpey
---------- Post added at 07:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:11 PM ----------
I don't read either. You'd be surprised what I do read, and for your information, the left wing press isn't automatically correct because it is left wing. An enormous amount of harmful, innacurate bullshit is pedalled by the press on all sides.
pommpey
BladeFisher
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Yes I think I have read it too. Thankfully today most of us in the world have a high tolerance of different cultures but notwithstanding the clear difference between the Bushido code and western values surely after the war one might have expected the world's leading economy to show a tad more contrition, given the westernisation influences the US brought to bear in Japan.
I always felt the German people carried too much guilt for their government's actions and the Japanese not enough.
Hey ho i'll just watch my Sony tv!
P
pommpey
Guest
And of course, the nationalisation of the Suez Canal by Nasser was totally above board and in no way threatened trade links between the west and our eastern allies. What would be your course of action if this happened to you, as PM?
Well, I'm sure I need to remind you that I'm an ex-serving member, and know what my obligations are, under the Articles of War. I also feel I need to remind you that your knowledge of how that Armed Forces functions organically, militarily and managerially is piss poor. Your assumption that 'sufficient number of people refusing to fight' has, and never will happen in the British military system. As for 'general gung ho atmosphere', I suggest you stop immersing yourself in watery leftist propaganda and endeavour to understand the structure of the Armed Forces, instead of basing your opinions on assumptions.
The Americans were unhappy with Britain regarding their allegience with France on the matter, and were strongly advising us against further destabilising the region. If you asume anything we had ventured into in the past two hundred years has blindsided the Yanks then you need a shrink. The Americans knew we were going in there (we told them) and wanted the operation delayed so that diplomatic measures could be exhausted and to marginalise the French.
The Soviets were intent on their buffer zone of states, anyway, regardless of Hungary's objections. Hungary was also a clarion call to all rejectors of Soviet influence that they would be put down ... and given we are in such a shit state anyway, the western alliance with the nascent NATO, could do nothing about it.
You really have no idea, do you? Romanticised poppycock. In the fanciful event, what do you think the net effect would be if say, 80,000 servicemen laid down their weapons and went on strike? Apart from being illegal in the first place, what would their actions be toward those who wanted to fight? Picket their barracks? With the AF split, the government would requisition support from police and policing authorities under martial law. What then? The country under martial law? Governmental emergency measures? Curfews? No, I can't imagine it either. I can reliably asure you that it wouldn't, and will ot happen.
France's Armed Forces at that time (and largely these days) are structured completely differently to ours. As is their government. So there is no comparison with regard this issue.
pommpey
SwissBlade
Well-Known Member
Armistice day means different things to different people. Perhaps certain players didn't observe it as you would hope, but I don't believe that it is disrespectful.
We have a large number of Brits working for our company in Switzerland, however only a handful of Brits and also australians took our time to observe a 2 minute silence at the back of the office.
Nowadays people can make choices on their jobs. Footballer, Office worker, Builder, Banker or Soldier. Your choice doesn't make you a better person than someone who does a less popular job. We've literally all got a job to do.
Its about choice. Its something that our dads, granddads and great granddads fought for all those years ago and in the wars since.
Good luck to your lad in Afghanistan, I hope he comes back from his tour unharmed.
JJ Sefton
Live, Laugh, Love
Do you mean the United States?
---------- Post added at 08:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:08 PM ----------
I disagree. The holocaust was conducted on a massive scale, the idea that it was all carried out by a handful of Nazis and that the rest of the Germans didnt know what was going on is post war fantasy. I think both the Germans and the Japanese got off lightly.
As a former RM I think Highbury has got things a little twisted. The day should be for remembering ALL those serving in the HM Forces, and putting their lives on the line for people back at home, as well as those who tragically have been killed whilst serving in the HM Forces, wether or not they were volunteers.
Dont take this the wrong way, its difficult to explain the friendships developed in the Forces, not everyone can understand
WE WILL ALWAYS REMEMBER THEM
Dont take this the wrong way, its difficult to explain the friendships developed in the Forces, not everyone can understand
WE WILL ALWAYS REMEMBER THEM
blade too long
we go again
good god , the last thing we want is an end to wars
theres 7 billion people on earth now, its gone up 1 billion in the last 25 years , if we dont keep thinning down the numbers well die of over crowding
we need some good famines a nice epidemic or 2 and a long bloody conflict , so we can live peacefully in some space
theres 7 billion people on earth now, its gone up 1 billion in the last 25 years , if we dont keep thinning down the numbers well die of over crowding
we need some good famines a nice epidemic or 2 and a long bloody conflict , so we can live peacefully in some space
I got to add to my previous post, there ar some on here have only a vague idea of the truth of military service and of the actual armed forces mostly thru blinkered journalism or third hand info.
There are times, usually during conflicts but not specifically, that more than friendships occur between members of groups not just indeviduals, its a trust that goes way beyond anything a civvy could imagine, a belief that these guys around you have your life in their hands and visa versa and a belonging either overtly or not to ALL that have been before and even those present and future and some people find it hard to grasp that these people wish to remember not only their friends but, thru understanding of cominality those that may have passed , 60 or 100 years before.
In some less well publisised areas of our armed forces are groups of as few as 2 or 3 people that will never, even if K.I.A. get recognition for their endevours, and these people deserve rememberance even tho most people will never even know they have died protecting this country and its freedoms.
so for anyone to suggest that these people, some very close to me are in some way leeching respect from conscripted soldiers of long ago because they actually choose to do what they do is at best ignorant and dispespectful far more than a couple of highly paid footballers stretching or even spitting during said rememberance.
some of you will never know (hopefully) the depths that some of our armed forces have to sink in order that you can have your say without fear of reprisals, so please think about what you are going to say before you say it because there are many out in civvy street that have lost friends and family because they choose to protect you and yours.
MunXy
There are times, usually during conflicts but not specifically, that more than friendships occur between members of groups not just indeviduals, its a trust that goes way beyond anything a civvy could imagine, a belief that these guys around you have your life in their hands and visa versa and a belonging either overtly or not to ALL that have been before and even those present and future and some people find it hard to grasp that these people wish to remember not only their friends but, thru understanding of cominality those that may have passed , 60 or 100 years before.
In some less well publisised areas of our armed forces are groups of as few as 2 or 3 people that will never, even if K.I.A. get recognition for their endevours, and these people deserve rememberance even tho most people will never even know they have died protecting this country and its freedoms.
so for anyone to suggest that these people, some very close to me are in some way leeching respect from conscripted soldiers of long ago because they actually choose to do what they do is at best ignorant and dispespectful far more than a couple of highly paid footballers stretching or even spitting during said rememberance.
some of you will never know (hopefully) the depths that some of our armed forces have to sink in order that you can have your say without fear of reprisals, so please think about what you are going to say before you say it because there are many out in civvy street that have lost friends and family because they choose to protect you and yours.
MunXy
P
pommpey
Guest
Absolutely.
Things is, I don't think there is, or has been, any member of the Armed Forces who has demanded respect by pure dint of the uniform they wear. It doesn't work like that. We (and I speak I feel on behalf of my former and currently serving colleagues here) would prefer it if our detractors informed themselves better before making judgements, and stepped away from the commonly held beliefs that is is we who actively decide to engage militarily and execute governmental foreign policy. Our actions are a consequence of policy. That policy is debated and voted on in Parliament.
Our work however is diverse enough to take in various roles in peacetime and our presence, fully trained in the doctrines, techniques, practices and concepts of modern warfare, acts as a deterrent against our security. It also vouchsafes our diminishing place on the world stage as a fairly major contributor. Without this, the three parts of the Economic, Political and Military framework would be unstable and untenable. If we remember our colleagues from whichever conflict, then it's because we consider ourselves lucky and have the ability to reflect on our actions. If we remember our foes (as most rememberance services do) then it shows our humanity.
pommpey
JJ Sefton
Live, Laugh, Love
I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o'beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's ``Thank you, Mister Atkins,'' when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's ``Thank you, Mr. Atkins,'' when the band begins to play.
I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.
Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy how's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.
We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints:
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind,"
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind.
You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country," when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
But Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees!
- Rudyard Kipling
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's ``Thank you, Mister Atkins,'' when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's ``Thank you, Mr. Atkins,'' when the band begins to play.
I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.
Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy how's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.
We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints:
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind,"
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind.
You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country," when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
But Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees!
- Rudyard Kipling
Succint replies
1. Nasser was legally entitled to nationalise the Suez canal. The only issue was payment of compensation. That was being negotiated when the invasion happened. I would have carried on negotiating about compensation. Anyway, of course, the canal stayed nationalised and I don't recall any disastrous trade implications as a result.
2. I agree I know little about the armed forces are organised, but I do do know that there have been mutinies in British military history. I also agree that its unlikely that sufficient number of people would refuse to fight to stop illegal military operations, but, if you recall, the initial argument started with youy saying that "you all" expect the armed forces to do what politicians say. I was merely pointing out that in some circumstances I would be pleased if they didn't.
3. You have misinterpreted the "general gung ho" atmosphere comment. I was merely pointing out that when British troops are fighting that tends to add support to the party in power. The British public was generally in favour of the Suez attack; hence if the Tory government had called an election on the subject, they would probably have won it.
4. So the Americans didn't want Britain to attack as it would destabilise the region. They were absolutely right.
5. The Soviets very much took Suez into account when deciding to go into Hungary. It gave them the perfect cover. And the Soviets were not intent on the precise contours of their buffer zone. They had pulled out of their zone of Austria the year before, had agreed to neutralise Finland rather than occupy it (as they could well have done) and were, at the time, proposing to give up their zone of Germany in return for the unification and neutralisation of the whole country. It was certainly not beyond the bounds of possibility that they would have accepted a neutralised Hungary.
6. Of course the army going on strike is illegal, but so is waging aggressive war. I don't accept your civil war scenario at all. As alluded to above mutinies have happened in the past (Curragh 1914, Invergordon 1931 for example) and what tends to happen is that the government negotiates
The bottom line is that my view is that Suez was easily the most appalling disaster in British foreign policy in the last 100 years. Anything that averted it would have been preferable.
Selly
Ask me about Updog...
Yes, Frances armed forces have it genetically bred into them to surrender at first sight of a German tank...
ZING!
As distasteful as that sounds, you make a good point.
If were doing poems about soldiering, this is my choice:
The Italian Soldier Shook My Hand
The Italian soldier shook my hand
Beside the guard-room table;
The strong hand and the subtle hand
Whose palms are only able
To meet within the sounds of guns,
But oh! what peace I knew then
In gazing on his battered face
Purer than any woman’s!
For the flyblown words that make me spew
Still in his ears were holy,
And he was born knowing that I had learned
Out of books and slowly.
The treacherous guns had told their tale
And we both had bought it,
But my gold brick was made of gold –
Oh! who ever would have thought it?
Good luck go with you, Italian soldier!
But luck is not for the brave;
What would the world give back to you?
Always less than you gave.
Between the shadow and the ghost,
Between the white and the red,
Between the bullet and the lie,
Where would hide your head?
For where is Manuel Gonzalez,
And where is Pedro Aguilar,
And where is Ramon Fenellosa?
The earthworms know where they are.
Your name and your deeds were forgotten
Before your bones were dry,
And the lie that slew you is buried
Under a deeper lie;
But the thing that I saw in your face
No power can disinherit:
No bomb that ever burst
Shatters the crystal spirit.
George Orwell
The Italian Soldier Shook My Hand
The Italian soldier shook my hand
Beside the guard-room table;
The strong hand and the subtle hand
Whose palms are only able
To meet within the sounds of guns,
But oh! what peace I knew then
In gazing on his battered face
Purer than any woman’s!
For the flyblown words that make me spew
Still in his ears were holy,
And he was born knowing that I had learned
Out of books and slowly.
The treacherous guns had told their tale
And we both had bought it,
But my gold brick was made of gold –
Oh! who ever would have thought it?
Good luck go with you, Italian soldier!
But luck is not for the brave;
What would the world give back to you?
Always less than you gave.
Between the shadow and the ghost,
Between the white and the red,
Between the bullet and the lie,
Where would hide your head?
For where is Manuel Gonzalez,
And where is Pedro Aguilar,
And where is Ramon Fenellosa?
The earthworms know where they are.
Your name and your deeds were forgotten
Before your bones were dry,
And the lie that slew you is buried
Under a deeper lie;
But the thing that I saw in your face
No power can disinherit:
No bomb that ever burst
Shatters the crystal spirit.
George Orwell
Sothall_Blade
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War, war is stupid
And people are stupid
And love means nothing
In some strange quarters
George O Dowd
And people are stupid
And love means nothing
In some strange quarters
George O Dowd
super_pig
Well-Known Member
it has become strangely fashionable in some quarters to debunk and undermine our great nation (yes we are great).. the fact that it is because of the very things these people seek to undermine that this type of thing is allowed seems to escape these people completely
Bert
Well-Known Member
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Selly
Ask me about Updog...
Tongue was firmly in cheek in that comment (hence the ZING!). Apparently however, this thread is a humour free zone...
Kenilworth
Up the Punters ❤️⚪️⚫️⚔️
Just caught up with this thread. Glad you're back Vic. Compelling stuff.
Imagine the scene - post match, Blades victory (in a meaningful game for once), several jars of real ale, a few tasty and spicy bar snacks, Vic and Darren engaged in conversation. Pure theatre.
A few observations:
1. Not so sure I would want Darren beside me if the shit hit the fan - Vic, any day of the week.
2. Absolutely certain I would want Darren for the pub quiz
3. Darren a cert if the battle was on a legal footing.
3. Both great contributors to this board (and BU before it)
4. I'll bet they both have (had) wild parties - either of which I would probably be too embarrassed to attend.
Keep it up fellers - entertaining stuff.
Imagine the scene - post match, Blades victory (in a meaningful game for once), several jars of real ale, a few tasty and spicy bar snacks, Vic and Darren engaged in conversation. Pure theatre.
A few observations:
1. Not so sure I would want Darren beside me if the shit hit the fan - Vic, any day of the week.
2. Absolutely certain I would want Darren for the pub quiz
3. Darren a cert if the battle was on a legal footing.
3. Both great contributors to this board (and BU before it)
4. I'll bet they both have (had) wild parties - either of which I would probably be too embarrassed to attend.
Keep it up fellers - entertaining stuff.
Rustyblade
Active Member
If you only ever read one poem on the subject, make it this one. I don't think it could be bettered.
Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs,
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots,
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame, all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of gas-shells dropping softly behind.
Gas! GAS! Quick, boys! — An ecstasy of fumbling
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time,
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime.—
Dim through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
In all my dreams before my helpless sight
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.
If in some smothering dreams, you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin,
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs
Bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues, —
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.
Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs,
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots,
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame, all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of gas-shells dropping softly behind.
Gas! GAS! Quick, boys! — An ecstasy of fumbling
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time,
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime.—
Dim through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
In all my dreams before my helpless sight
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.
If in some smothering dreams, you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin,
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs
Bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues, —
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.
P
pommpey
Guest
Nasser wasn't. He had no legal right at all. All he was doing was retaliating against the UK for their withdrawal of support for the Aswan Dam, triggered by Egyptian proclamations of recognition of China and their cosying up to Krushchev. The Yanks wanted more, had no commercial or strategic interest in the Canal and used leverage to get between the French and us.
Well, good for you. Enjoy your wait for that day because although morale and opinion can sometimes be variable in the Armed Forces, loyalty isn't.
British troops ... airmen and indeed sailors ... will support the party in power. That's a given. You elect them. We'll support them.
And, as said, because it suited their own interests at the time.
Finland, as acknowledged by many commentators and politicians then and since, would have been the Soviets' early Vietnam. It was also acknowledged, because of it's neutrality, as being a major strategic non-aligned buffer of inpenetrability against the west. Why do you think the Royal Marines and Paratroop Regiments were trained in Arctic Warfare?
I'm interested in your term 'aggressive war'. All war is aggressive. A war, to satisfy the terms of it's legality, must be just, and unavoidable, excercising the minimum kinetic effect.
Are you sure you understand quite what the Invergordon Mutiny was about, it's roots, the participants, the actions of the government at the time and it's aftermath?
I'd say there have been others. Most have involved wars, but if you study the history of modern warfare, you'll come to understand that many wars of the past 150 years have either been the cause of massive governmental fuck ups, misjudgements of opposers actions or plain and simple poor politics.
pommpey
super_pig
Well-Known Member
>And, as said, because it suited their own interests at the time.
and the reason that the French withdrew from NATO and still aren't members now.. they don't trust the US as far as they can spit.. neither do i as it happens.. if it hadn't been for pearl harbour they'd never have joined WW2
and the reason that the French withdrew from NATO and still aren't members now.. they don't trust the US as far as they can spit.. neither do i as it happens.. if it hadn't been for pearl harbour they'd never have joined WW2
P
pommpey
Guest
They were supplying us and supporting us long before Pearl Harbour. Not neccesarily militarily at first. But it wasn't as though they suddenly woke up one day with Zeroes buzzing past and their Pacific Fleet on fire and think 'Shit! We'd better wise up and join the Limeys in their war in Europe!'
pommpey
bricktop
Well-Known Member
As much as i agree with your post Pommpey, i don't quite get the bit where you have a pop at Fireman.
My old man was a Matelot like your good self, joined the Navy at 15, or rather was told to join the Navy as he had been expelled from School. He served on the Ark Royal and Hermes as an Aircraft Handler, before getting posted to Naval Airbase at Yeovilton, where he ended up training up as an airfield fireman, and in the process met my mother who was a wren. After a few years of living in Yeovil and working on the airbase, he moved to Sheffield when my mother was expecting me in 1977 and joined the Sheffield Fire Service.
I was born almost 34 years to the day, and was the first strike baby to be born in Sheffield during the 1977 Fireman's Strike, and he was on strike to fight for better pay and conditions at the time as a Fireman's job was then, and still is one of the most dangerous occupations you can do.
My father had to retire early after being involved in a fire that was classed as an arson attack for the insurance money in the early 1990's, he went in to a building with Breathing Apparatus on with one of his colleagues, and because of the density of the smoke and oil on the workshop floor, he slipped and put his hand through a window severing tendons, and nearly bleeding to death to the extent he lied down that night to die, and it was the resilience and determination of his colleague. He was forced to retire as after that he didn't have the same strength in his hand, and the hardest thing was admitting that his confidence was shot and he could no longer do the job that he loved, which ended up leading towards depression, and a marriage break up.
In 1984 he attended two huge fire in Sheffield and the fire's in biggest for a generation. One was at Wigfalls which was one of his favourite Fire Brigade tales, and the other was at a Warehouse at Brightside Lane. His appliance was the first to arrive at Brightside Lane and it was not known if anyone was trapped inside so he, and his watch went in to the building without breathing apparatus and the result was that they ended up in the Northern General having inhaled burning asbestos. Fast forward nearly 30 years and the majority of those Fireman have died from various forms of cancer, most of them died from lung cancer and my father's was pancreatic. Even though there is no concrete evience to link the two, there is a lot higher percentage of fireman who die from this vicious disease, and a lot of that can be attributed to the heavy, thick, toxic smoke that a fireman will inhale during the course of doing his career in the fire service.
I don't think there is any great difference in what the Fire Service and the magnificent Armed Forces do, they are there to protect and serve people, and both do a magnificent job, and i think they should both be on a lot more for that they do, the only difference is that the fire service have a trade union for collective bargaining and for their rights, whilst the military isn't permitted one, and there is nobody there to protect their rights.
I've been brought up around the Royal Navy, from birth until the age of 34 i've always had a relative serving in the Navy. A couple of uncle, my sister did 6 years in the RN. What brought the sacrifices the armed forces make for me on a personal level was September 11th, 2001. A month before we'd had a bit of a family get together for my sister who was about to go on a three month draft to the gulf on HMS Cornwall and was due back just in time for a nice family Christmas. When the planes hit the twin towers and it soon became apparant that it was a terrorist attack on a scale that had never been seen before, i was more worried about my sister who was on her way to a war zone. In the end that day she on a run ashore in Malta and was called back to her ship, and didn't come back until June the next year, and that was one of the sacrifices she had to make, albiet a small one, but as a member of the armed forces she had signed up to make sacrifices and it was by the good grace of god that she never had to make the ultimate sacrifice.
I think the biggest shame is the extent to which the top level of Government take advantage of the armed forces. It's not a direct dig at the Tory party before anyone accuses me of using it to have a swipe at the Tories, because Labour did it to the same extent. What disgust's me is the fact that successive Government's have utilised the armed forces extensively, whilst trying to cutback, penny pinch at the same time, leaving them overstretched for the task's they have to perform. Earlier on this year, i had a long weekend off work, and had planned a weekend on the piss in Swansea for the last match of the season, but given the circumstance's i didn't want to go, so i went to Plymouth for a couple of days where thanks to my Brother In Law, i spent a very enjoyable morning being taken around Devonport Dockyard. He's served over 25 years in the Navy and told me just how much it has been it has been cutback, as it is the size of a small town, and most of it now is like a ghost town. The saddest sight was seeing a couple of proud ships in the dockyard being decomissioned, and without anything being brought in to their place to replace them. If anyone gets the chance to see a operational dockyard then i would reccomend it, as it gives a small insight in to the magnificent work the armed forces do.
I think it is vitally important that we recognise the work that the armed forces do, and it shows exactly why the poppy appeal should be respected. When you've got people who are prepared to make the usual sacrifice for their country, then it is the least we can do, i just wish the politicians would do the same.
bricktop
Well-Known Member
If the Argentinian's invaded the Falklands tomorrow we would be screwed as we don't have the same Naval firepower as we did in 1982.
It will be the price that successive governments will pay for overstretching a world class fighting force on the cheap.
It will be the price that successive governments will pay for overstretching a world class fighting force on the cheap.
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