What gone wrong since 1976
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Bell4
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ABH s post in said thread
`Yes we would be a top 10 Championship club. But I'd like folk's views on what has changed so much since 1976. Our history before this had mainly been mid-table 1st tier, with the occasional better season, and then a shite season to get relegated. A couple of years in Tier 2, then we'd expect to be promoted. Until 1978, we had never finished below 11th in the 2nd Tier. Looking at this, http://alltimeleaguetable.co.uk/ , we rank 18th in the all-time League positions. And this is skewed lower because of our big downturn since 1976. All the original clubs are still there that were there in 1976. And it's not as if our position has been pushed down by the likes of Barcelona, Real, Bayern, Juventus, Ajax, Benfica, Dortmund etc. joining our League is it?
So what's changed to make us so much worse since '76?`
`Yes we would be a top 10 Championship club. But I'd like folk's views on what has changed so much since 1976. Our history before this had mainly been mid-table 1st tier, with the occasional better season, and then a shite season to get relegated. A couple of years in Tier 2, then we'd expect to be promoted. Until 1978, we had never finished below 11th in the 2nd Tier. Looking at this, http://alltimeleaguetable.co.uk/ , we rank 18th in the all-time League positions. And this is skewed lower because of our big downturn since 1976. All the original clubs are still there that were there in 1976. And it's not as if our position has been pushed down by the likes of Barcelona, Real, Bayern, Juventus, Ajax, Benfica, Dortmund etc. joining our League is it?
So what's changed to make us so much worse since '76?`
Bell4
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Pomps contribution
`The collapse of 'Sheffield', itself. The city has always sat beneath the bright lights, big-city feel of Leeds and Manchester, and whereas Leeds has recovered enough from it's milling trade, Manchester from a similar line, the demise of heavy industry has never rebounded to bestow great fortune upon our great metropolis. Sheffield has always struggled. It has never properly gentrified itself even enough to rise to the great middle class resurgence, and that is the fault of legions of incompetent socialist administrations running the city as some bargain, discount fiefdom. Leeds on the other hand, even having less kudos, has managed to effectively stand itself up as 'the Capital of Yorkshire'. All of this mirrors wonderfully with the cities' football teams. Both Leeds and Man City have, in the past twenty years, been where we have been. Man United - possibly one of the biggest clubs on the planet - are in a real, running-sore crisis since Ferguson left and can't confidently say that in any given season they will have silverware in their cabinet ... when twenty years ago they were winning trophies just for shits and giggles. But still they get investment and glamour, even when they are getting trunked by Watford. Us and the pigs ... even that lot still hold more affection in the public eye ... are seen as Timmy Try Hards, from that city where the Human League and Joe Cocker (and sometimes the Monkeys, if we are lucky) and after that, the conversation about the sixth biggest city in Britain ends abruptly. Since 1976, what have 'we' ... (I say this figuratively as an exile of 41 years) ... United, Pigs and Sheffield itself actually done to blow the country away save for produce a few notable bands, some sports people and the Miner's Strike? As much as I love the place, no one wants to invest, no one wants to build and no one wants to be that bothered, particularly since the mid seventies ... crippling unionisation ... eighties ... horrific Thatcherism and the polarity of the city as a socialist nirvana and nineties when everything Madchester stole the show and Sheffield practically disappeared off the map. We've never punched our weight, have us Sheffielders, despite the place having such potential some great personalities and intent and maybe people living inside the boundaries have trouble seeing that. Living 220 miles away I see it clearly, and its a fucking shame. When it comes to either club living and existing in the top flight it's never a case of if we get dumped back down, but when. If we get an investor in our club it's never a case of endless riches and signings which make your bowels loosen with anticipation. Its more a case of Wikipediaing them and then hoping to fuck there's a player in there who will deliver the goods. If we even get a manger like Wilder most of us are wondering when his sphincter will give way and he shits himself down his leg. Wolves last season two minutes in was that very moment for me. Up to first lockdown did anyone - REALLY - think, 'fuck me, we've made it here. We're in the PL for decades now. Bring it on!' or did people think, 'this won't fucking last'. We are always found out and there's never a solution, a plan B or a safety net to catch us. We say 'It'll be reyt' but we know it won't be. We are always that plucky also rans instead of someone like Leicester City who despite their inherent crises, manage to confound us all and win the fucking Premier League in someone's lifetime and stay in the top flight longer than one or two seasons.
Us? Fucking dream on. Bright lights and big city? Never.
Its the Sheffield United Way.
pommpey`
`The collapse of 'Sheffield', itself. The city has always sat beneath the bright lights, big-city feel of Leeds and Manchester, and whereas Leeds has recovered enough from it's milling trade, Manchester from a similar line, the demise of heavy industry has never rebounded to bestow great fortune upon our great metropolis. Sheffield has always struggled. It has never properly gentrified itself even enough to rise to the great middle class resurgence, and that is the fault of legions of incompetent socialist administrations running the city as some bargain, discount fiefdom. Leeds on the other hand, even having less kudos, has managed to effectively stand itself up as 'the Capital of Yorkshire'. All of this mirrors wonderfully with the cities' football teams. Both Leeds and Man City have, in the past twenty years, been where we have been. Man United - possibly one of the biggest clubs on the planet - are in a real, running-sore crisis since Ferguson left and can't confidently say that in any given season they will have silverware in their cabinet ... when twenty years ago they were winning trophies just for shits and giggles. But still they get investment and glamour, even when they are getting trunked by Watford. Us and the pigs ... even that lot still hold more affection in the public eye ... are seen as Timmy Try Hards, from that city where the Human League and Joe Cocker (and sometimes the Monkeys, if we are lucky) and after that, the conversation about the sixth biggest city in Britain ends abruptly. Since 1976, what have 'we' ... (I say this figuratively as an exile of 41 years) ... United, Pigs and Sheffield itself actually done to blow the country away save for produce a few notable bands, some sports people and the Miner's Strike? As much as I love the place, no one wants to invest, no one wants to build and no one wants to be that bothered, particularly since the mid seventies ... crippling unionisation ... eighties ... horrific Thatcherism and the polarity of the city as a socialist nirvana and nineties when everything Madchester stole the show and Sheffield practically disappeared off the map. We've never punched our weight, have us Sheffielders, despite the place having such potential some great personalities and intent and maybe people living inside the boundaries have trouble seeing that. Living 220 miles away I see it clearly, and its a fucking shame. When it comes to either club living and existing in the top flight it's never a case of if we get dumped back down, but when. If we get an investor in our club it's never a case of endless riches and signings which make your bowels loosen with anticipation. Its more a case of Wikipediaing them and then hoping to fuck there's a player in there who will deliver the goods. If we even get a manger like Wilder most of us are wondering when his sphincter will give way and he shits himself down his leg. Wolves last season two minutes in was that very moment for me. Up to first lockdown did anyone - REALLY - think, 'fuck me, we've made it here. We're in the PL for decades now. Bring it on!' or did people think, 'this won't fucking last'. We are always found out and there's never a solution, a plan B or a safety net to catch us. We say 'It'll be reyt' but we know it won't be. We are always that plucky also rans instead of someone like Leicester City who despite their inherent crises, manage to confound us all and win the fucking Premier League in someone's lifetime and stay in the top flight longer than one or two seasons.
Us? Fucking dream on. Bright lights and big city? Never.
Its the Sheffield United Way.
pommpey`
Micky Narker
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Small-time mentality, getting peanuts for players who then massively increase in value, playoff gypsy curse etc
robbiez666
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Money
Danny_Blade
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Because we've hardly ever adapted to the times when the game has evolved and we don't ever seem to have a clear long term strategy/plan to get promoted and then stay there.
Ever since the 70's we've just let the game leave us behind hence why we've haven't had prolonged spells in the top flight since. 4 years from 90-94 is hardly very long but now we have hindsight that is quite a spell by our standards which is a real shame and very underwhelming.
Palace used to be a non league club but now look at them. Despite being a London club they are the same in profile as us, a very working class and humble football club that have never had much money but have had numerous spells in the Prem and are still there after about 7 years now. If they can do it I don't understand why we can't?
Ditto Burnley. They didn't spend their way to the Prem the first time around when they beat us in 2009 and probably had a much lesser budget than us that season while we would have still been living off of parachute payments with it only being 2 years after relegation in 2007. OH AND PLUS THE TEVEZ COMPO I NEARLY FORGOT ON TOP OF PARACHUTE PAYMENTS!! Again if Burnley who are of the same profile can why can't we?
I'll tell you why - it all stems back to not having that long term plan/strategy and just trudging along, reactive and not pro-active!
Ever since the 70's we've just let the game leave us behind hence why we've haven't had prolonged spells in the top flight since. 4 years from 90-94 is hardly very long but now we have hindsight that is quite a spell by our standards which is a real shame and very underwhelming.
Palace used to be a non league club but now look at them. Despite being a London club they are the same in profile as us, a very working class and humble football club that have never had much money but have had numerous spells in the Prem and are still there after about 7 years now. If they can do it I don't understand why we can't?
Ditto Burnley. They didn't spend their way to the Prem the first time around when they beat us in 2009 and probably had a much lesser budget than us that season while we would have still been living off of parachute payments with it only being 2 years after relegation in 2007. OH AND PLUS THE TEVEZ COMPO I NEARLY FORGOT ON TOP OF PARACHUTE PAYMENTS!! Again if Burnley who are of the same profile can why can't we?
I'll tell you why - it all stems back to not having that long term plan/strategy and just trudging along, reactive and not pro-active!
Over a century ago?
SouthEssexBlade
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I've told the design freaks like mattbianco1 and others, the moment we added black to the shirts we were doomed. 1975-76 was the first ever time we had any black added to the shirt, relegated and turned to shit, it's no coincidence that the point pommpey identifies as the start of our demise we started wearing this
Davalon
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Lots of reasons I guess but I don't buy the bad luck excuse that some use.
Not all, but much of our bad luck could have been negated with better decisions by owners, managers, and players.
The lack of a wealthy owner is obviously huge but it does make you wonder how we've been unable to attract one in decades when so many other clubs have, plenty of much smaller stature in even less attractive locations.
And whilst I'm certainly not going to blame the fans, I would like to see more broaden their horizons. Too many are seeming suspicious and distrusting of the unknown.
I remember fans whinging about Bassett in the beginning because he was a Cockney.
I doubt many will admit it but it's unquestionable to me that some don't like the fact we've got foreign ownership and management.
Not all, but much of our bad luck could have been negated with better decisions by owners, managers, and players.
The lack of a wealthy owner is obviously huge but it does make you wonder how we've been unable to attract one in decades when so many other clubs have, plenty of much smaller stature in even less attractive locations.
And whilst I'm certainly not going to blame the fans, I would like to see more broaden their horizons. Too many are seeming suspicious and distrusting of the unknown.
I remember fans whinging about Bassett in the beginning because he was a Cockney.
I doubt many will admit it but it's unquestionable to me that some don't like the fact we've got foreign ownership and management.
Houston_Blade
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mattbianco1
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Yeah but, if you listen to some on here - black pinstripes is a "United Thing" and no black makes us "look like Stoke"
The best shirts we've had (with the exception of the 1992) don't have the black pinstripes.
For me, these are the best shirts in no particular order, well actually, they're in chronological order...
Harry's Game
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Never having a rich and competent owner at any point is the main crux of it.
An interesting set of theories that I don’t disagree with, but the emergence of Sky and overseas owners has skewed football at all levels, not least at the top.
blade67
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My view on this is that it goes back before 1976 and that it just took a while to catch up on us.
The rest of the football world starting increase seat % and revenue in the 1960s when we had a 3 sided ground, meaning we fell behind significantly in terms of ability to fight our corner in the transfer market. This was partially hidden by the manager we had in the late 60s early 70s.
When we finally got around to resolving the issue by building the south stand we were hit by the double whammy of relegation and high interest rates. That effectively took us several years to resolve.
Sheffield's industrial collapse of the early 80s won't have helped, although Liverpool football teams seemed to have coped and the other factor has been largely ineffective leadership at board level. Again we now have a pathetic level of corporate facilities compared to many of the teams we wish to compete with.
It does seem bizarre that both us and Wednesday have been pretty much totally terrible for 40 years though in a city the size of Sheffield. There also seems to be no real dawn on the horizon for either team. Grim stuff.
The rest of the football world starting increase seat % and revenue in the 1960s when we had a 3 sided ground, meaning we fell behind significantly in terms of ability to fight our corner in the transfer market. This was partially hidden by the manager we had in the late 60s early 70s.
When we finally got around to resolving the issue by building the south stand we were hit by the double whammy of relegation and high interest rates. That effectively took us several years to resolve.
Sheffield's industrial collapse of the early 80s won't have helped, although Liverpool football teams seemed to have coped and the other factor has been largely ineffective leadership at board level. Again we now have a pathetic level of corporate facilities compared to many of the teams we wish to compete with.
It does seem bizarre that both us and Wednesday have been pretty much totally terrible for 40 years though in a city the size of Sheffield. There also seems to be no real dawn on the horizon for either team. Grim stuff.
coaxingstar71
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I think it's a combination of all the things mentioned above, economics, ambition etc.
I also think we've lacked a real innovator. Most of the big clubs at one time or another have had an inspirational manager or wealthy owner that has taken them to the top and they've more or less stayed there....
Liverpool - were a standard 2nd division outfit until Shankly came along and they built a dynasty around the 'boot room'
Man Utd - were City's poor neighbours until Matt Busby came along and then when they were flagging, Ferguson came in.
Arsenal - always been a big club, however Wenger took them to a new level.
Leeds - See Liverpool and replace Shankly with Revie
Forest - Clough
Chelsea - Abramovich money
Man City - Mansour money
We've always been held back, through a lack of ambition by the owners or more often than not uninspiring managers. John Harris did wonders with a pittance while having to sell players. Dick Wragg was never interested in making the club great, he just wanted to control it. Did anyone know that around the time Furphy came in, we could have got Clough but he was put off by Wragg?
Wilder is probably the most innovative manager we've had in terms of doing something new and playing a different way that brought a level of success.
I also think we've lacked a real innovator. Most of the big clubs at one time or another have had an inspirational manager or wealthy owner that has taken them to the top and they've more or less stayed there....
Liverpool - were a standard 2nd division outfit until Shankly came along and they built a dynasty around the 'boot room'
Man Utd - were City's poor neighbours until Matt Busby came along and then when they were flagging, Ferguson came in.
Arsenal - always been a big club, however Wenger took them to a new level.
Leeds - See Liverpool and replace Shankly with Revie
Forest - Clough
Chelsea - Abramovich money
Man City - Mansour money
We've always been held back, through a lack of ambition by the owners or more often than not uninspiring managers. John Harris did wonders with a pittance while having to sell players. Dick Wragg was never interested in making the club great, he just wanted to control it. Did anyone know that around the time Furphy came in, we could have got Clough but he was put off by Wragg?
Wilder is probably the most innovative manager we've had in terms of doing something new and playing a different way that brought a level of success.
Iffy Onuora's Shiny Head
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I think in our own way we tried to set a blue print to set us up for the next 5+ years. We could have been a Leicester - We just failed appallingly at it.
We focused on buying young players to build a team around that could improve, sell on and the replenish. The issue being our player selection was abysmal in terms of the players recruited, and the areas we chose to recruit.
I still believe that if we had invested the £50m from the end of the second season better, we would have at least been in a battle to stay up - a proper LCB replacement, a CM to replace Lundstram, an Experienced goalie (Ramsdale did come good but his first 6 months were shaky and part of our bad start - too much risk for a team in our position transitioning from a World class goal keeper)
We focused on buying young players to build a team around that could improve, sell on and the replenish. The issue being our player selection was abysmal in terms of the players recruited, and the areas we chose to recruit.
I still believe that if we had invested the £50m from the end of the second season better, we would have at least been in a battle to stay up - a proper LCB replacement, a CM to replace Lundstram, an Experienced goalie (Ramsdale did come good but his first 6 months were shaky and part of our bad start - too much risk for a team in our position transitioning from a World class goal keeper)
SouthEssexBlade
...for wit and sage wisdom
Yeah but, if you listen to some on here - black pinstripes is a "United Thing" and no black makes us "look like Stoke"
The best shirts we've had (with the exception of the 1992) don't have the black pinstripes.
For me, these are the best shirts in no particular order, well actually, they're in chronological order...
View attachment 125087View attachment 125088View attachment 125089View attachment 125090View attachment 125091View attachment 125092View attachment 125093
If you look at the first one (the last before we added black to the shirt) and go back over the years, apart from different collars and stripe width it changed very little. They all look pretty decent, and look like proper Blades shirts. Stoke wore white shorts, which was the difference. Black doomed us, that and building the South stand and the curse of Yorkshire CCC for kicking them out.
ancientblade
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red socks hate em should be white or black
mattbianco1
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Not sure you can say they were their poor neighbours.
By 1945 when Matt Busby came in, they were quite equal - Man Utd had won 2 League Titles and 1 FA Cup. Man City in comparison had won 1 League Title and 2x FA Cups
Revolution
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Man Utd had a bad 1930s. They were relegated twice and almost dropped out of division 2 at one point.
City won the league and cup and reached another final. They also had bigger crowds for the entire decade, averaging 10,000 more in 5 seasons. They only had one season when they finished below United.
metalblade
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The trouble is I think JJBlade might just be onto something it is not just United who have been shite so have the pigs apart from a few seasons in the early 90's when they spent a fortune they didn't have (still suffering from it to this day). the fortunes of both clubs pretty much mirror the fortunes of Sheffield and it's left wing councils. Pretty much everything Sheffield has done since the early 70's has turned to dust and has been left behind by a cotton town and a wool town. Fuck me Manchester even has a museum billed as the home of football and Leeds a museum for the royal armouries in a city that has never made a ton of steel throughout it's history. You couldn't make it up our council back the home of popular music when Sheffield has never been a city renowned for it's musical talent. Sheffield died with it's steel industry all we have now is students and a city centre of empty buildings where druggies, piss heads and homeless sleep in doorways by night and beg by day.
Houston_Blade
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I agree, there's something in it. It just makes me chuckle the amount of vitriol he feels towards the city. I'm not a Sheffielder so don't give a monkeys either way.
As a Man City fan who lurks on here, let me add to this. Between the start of the 20th century and the beginning of WW2, we had bigger gates than our out-of-city rivals in around three-quarters of the seasons and finished higher in the league in more than two-thirds. There's no doubt which was the bigger club at that point, and it wasn't them. Nor were they close to being on an equal footing.
In addition to the three trophies we won, we had two losing FA Cup finals and the odd unsuccessful tilt at the league title. We'd also set a number of crowd records, whereas their support was generally poor in relative terms. Man United simply had one purple patch, funded by huge (by the standards of the time) funding from a sugar-daddy between 1908 and 1911. To do that, they nabbed four of our players, two of them being their star performer and their top scorer, when the FA forced us to sell our entire squad as punishment for an illegal payments scandal. We poached their manager in 1912, though, and they never really threatened to enjoy any success again pre-Busby.
Then it turned on its head, but one significant factor that people usually miss was them sharing Maine Road while Old Trafford was unusable owing to bomb damage sustained in the War. They arrived heavily in debt, and went back a massive (by the standards of the time) £100K in the black, with lots of fans who'd started to watch both teams during their time at our place following them back to theirs when they returned in 1949. I've always said, only half-joking, that when they asked to share with us, with hindsight we should've told them to piss off to Salford RL. That's probably where they'd otherwise have had to go, and Busby probably wouldn't have joined them in 1945 had they been playing there.
I appreciate that no one else on here really gives a toss about this, so sorry for rambling on. As it's my team and the issue came up, I thought I'd add my bit. As for the actual topic of the thread, of course I'm an outsider but my impression has always been that it's extremely surprising that one of the Blades and the S6 porkers hasn't managed to become an established top-flight side and really become the dominant team in Sheffield. I suppose the oinkers had it in their hands in the 1990s and blew it.
As someone with a degree of affection for the Blades, I'm glad they did. But I'm sorry that the Blades had great chances in 1975, 2007 and 2020 to really become the major force in Sheffield and also let it slip. I don't know enough about why that was the case, but read threads like this with interest. It's always instructive to know what a team's own fans think. There's always a lot of stuff you never pick up as an outsider.
Davalon
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JJ clearly goes too far but I believe there's a bit of truth in where he's coming from.
A lot of Sheffielders are happy to settle for less as long it's what they know.
It's no coincidence imho that as a city we're so far behind other big cities in so many ways.
Chimpan-A
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I didn’t know that about City and United groundsharing.
With regard to your point about one Sheffield club becoming dominant, a Wednesday mate of mine pointed out that it’s a pattern with us that when one club does well (relatively speaking!) the other one goes into a nose dive. In the 47 years I have been watching, this has nearly always been the case. Could argue that early 90s with both in top flight for 4 seasons together we were both doing well but they were clearly a top side and we were perennial relegation battlers. Odd season we have been rubbish together, but even then, mostly different levels of rubbish, like last season.
Alan Birchenall's hair
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Also, my Dad always said it was the Munich aircrash, and the sympathy that they got afterwards that propelled them above City. Along with Busby, Best, Law and Charlton, that was the roll they climbed on and never looked back from really.
And, until the mid 60s, when Liverpool FC got associated with The Beatles, Everton were the most successful club on Merseyside, both on the pitch and with higher attendances.....
coaxingstar71
First 10 yards are in the head
Very interesting stuff. Indeed, their biggest attendance was at your place!
Pollingtonblade
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Only in S2 .....
coaxingstar71
First 10 yards are in the head
Just out of interest, how do you feel about your new generation of fans who expect you to win the League and at least one other trophy every year as if it was always the way?
Pollingtonblade
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A few things about us.
No matter who the board/manager/players - we always manage to grasp defeat from the jaws of victory - so in the early 90s, the mid-00s and last year when we had opportunities to become a 'force' we have blown it. Playoff final defeats/Semi-Final Defeats and unbelievable relegations just add to the fact we are perennial bottlers.
We seem to talk the talk and under Wilder and even Warnock there were times I though the club was well run and building a structure but even in them scenarios always new things would come crashing down, and how.
We never 'bounce back' that's why I'm not as frustrated as some on here are about this season - to me it was inevitable. Only we could spend 2 seasons in the Prem and appear more skint than when we came in, the fact that the first time we have thrown multi millions at players who turned out to be shit also adds to the frustration.
In terms of Sheffield - it is so far behind other major cities it is embarrassing and appears to thrive on the fact it has fuck all going for it when it has such fantastic potential.
No matter who the board/manager/players - we always manage to grasp defeat from the jaws of victory - so in the early 90s, the mid-00s and last year when we had opportunities to become a 'force' we have blown it. Playoff final defeats/Semi-Final Defeats and unbelievable relegations just add to the fact we are perennial bottlers.
We seem to talk the talk and under Wilder and even Warnock there were times I though the club was well run and building a structure but even in them scenarios always new things would come crashing down, and how.
We never 'bounce back' that's why I'm not as frustrated as some on here are about this season - to me it was inevitable. Only we could spend 2 seasons in the Prem and appear more skint than when we came in, the fact that the first time we have thrown multi millions at players who turned out to be shit also adds to the frustration.
In terms of Sheffield - it is so far behind other major cities it is embarrassing and appears to thrive on the fact it has fuck all going for it when it has such fantastic potential.
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