Was Wilder right about our players?

[Hagansbootlaces]

You could well be right mate. So much of what appears on this site is speculation, often posted to suggest that a poster knows a bit more than other posters.

Your description makes a great deal of sense, but the truth is, unless me or thee are a fly on the wall I doubt that getting to the root of what happened will ever be revealed.

I honestly think if you were in a position to ask the players, they couldn't give a reason, because surely someone must have asked them, in order to fix what was broken

 

[ShockingBadBuy]

you can't keep creating a burning rig moment,

I misread that initially as ‘burning ring moment’, and was about to post a reply disagreeing with you in the strongest of terms.

United leaving me with a burning ring, ground after ground, game after game, has been the hallmark of the season so far.

 

[coolasanidiot]

Yes I do think it’s a great club.

Not without its faults for sure, but I have had some brilliant times following the blades home and away.

The many lows make the fewer highs even more exhilarating.

You can’t beat a full house under the lights at BL. A proper stadium in the heart of the city. Terrific pubs to soak in the prematch atmosphere. And that visceral roar of encouragement and expectation as the team runs out. I could go on and on and on.

But I’ll just say, after being in the doldrums for so long, so many grim years after plummeting to league one, that first season back in the top flight under Wilder was the greatest feeling of pride and excitement in Sheffield United I have experienced in 40 years.

I’m sorry you don’t feel that way. I won’t stoop so low as to question your support, but I guess it’s just fundamentally different to the way I feel.

I feel that way alright and those nights you talk about I was everyone of them for last 5 decades, and I love those nights. But there are 92 league clubs and all fans of all these clubs love their team.

But to truly call yourself a 'great club' surely you have had to do something 'great', I'm still waiting and hoping for this greatness to happen - but so far pretty much abject failure.

Yes first year back in Prem was amazing, but then as if by magic as good as that season was we followed with an epic failing the like that was totally inexplicable, to all.

The reasons you site- so could Shrewsbury Town.

But not trying to piss on your bonfire if you think we are a 'great club' good luck to you. If this is 'great' I'd hate to see how a shit club was run...

 

[Tom Bott]

The players at Leicester there were essentially Championship/L1 players who CW had helped massively overachieved. CW's mistake was not moving some of them on in the summer of 2020 (McG, Stevens etc). The board also have some blame for that too.

Though the outrage on here when he let Duffy go, oh the hypocrisy.

Now we are saying he should have let them all go ?

Though buying a new team as Fulham did, failed miserably.

I see some are already using 'our support' to show how 'massive' we should be, though Sunderland manage to get a higher attendance in 'division' 3.

I'm just waiting for the first person to use the 'but other teams see us as their cup final' excuse.

The players have more than enough ability to perform at this level and Slav should be able to drum some sense of loyalty/passion into them for the money they are being paid or Duffy them off.

How are Duffy and Leon Clarke doing these days ?

 

[Heely bottoms underpants]

It's all one big fucking mystery to me.

 

[Tom Bott]

As the game commences.

 

[Tom Bott]

 

[CornwallBlade]

If they were League One players then he shouldn't have given them new contracts. I don't think this interview was anything other than him being over emotional after a defeat though. We'd beat Chelsea 3-0 a few days before in one of our best ever displays under him.

For me, that interview Marked the beginning of him believing he was the sole reason we got to where we did and that his magic touch meant he could do that with any group of players - that ended well didn’t it….

 

[CornwallBlade]

Roy, as much as I find your contributions way above average, I think the point has been missed. I think that what Wilder was saying was based on what he knows his side were capable of, and the Leicester game was clearly a shock to his system in that his expectations were far higher and the players gave far, far less than was expected in this game.

Whether people think that airing his views publicly was wrong, well I suppose it depends on whether you have the necessary fibre to accept what's said rather than shrink because 'harsh' comments have been said. The fact that it's said in public seems piffling unless you assume that 'no comment' serves a purpose. FFS the players are expected to be grownups, and as Wilder said, they're never slow coming forward when a wage increase is needed, or when they need some other type of understanding about their circumstances.

Yes, many of these players came from Div 1, but they've shown they had it within them to raise their games to a far higher level. Whatever went wrong, well it's done now, but although I think Wilder made mistakes in his final year and a bit, I can't see why it's wrong to comment on players when they underachieve.

First rule of management- Praise in public, bollock in private. You don’t get loyalty and tight knit teams if the guy who’s leading the group starts whining in public. You don’t see Klopp or Guardiola doing that but you can be sure they will tear into people behind closed doors if necessary.

 

[itsinyerblood]

First rule of management- Praise in public, bollock in private. You don’t get loyalty and tight knit teams if the guy who’s leading the group starts whining in public. You don’t see Klopp or Guardiola doing that but you can be sure they will tear into people behind closed doors if necessary.

Not sure which management tome you're referring to. I recall Alex Ferguson publicly airing his dissatisfaction with his team several times. Each to their own say I, but in the end it doesn't matter a great deal, does it? Players will either act like wilting violets and fret like a child or they'll show some backbone and resolve.

 

[Hagansbootlaces]

For me, that interview Marked the beginning of him believing he was the sole reason we got to where we did and that his magic touch meant he could do that with any group of players - that ended well didn’t it….

I think the media attention played a part, the whole overlapping centre back tactic, brought not just a new level of scrutiny, but as it worked and worked well, an ever increasing amount of praise, coverage, demand for interviews and significantly increased CWs profile, add in rubbing shoulders with Klopp, Pep, and losing to their teams by the the odd goal, fed into the hype that was surrounding CW, maybe he started to believe it a bit more than he should have.

Perhaps the biggest failing was not hiring a man like Emporer Marcus did , to whisper in his ear, he was only a man,,its easy to get carried away, re the hype about Lundstrom and his performances in that first season in the PL that you can, through your genius coaching turn a L1 player into a PL player,,easy to forget about those players you signed that didnt contribute and were quickly moved on like Ryan Leonard or Ricky Holmes.

 

[Carlton Blade]

2nd only to the Zapruder film in replays on YouTube by now I imagine

 

[nopigfansintown]

Not sure which management tome you're referring to. I recall Alex Ferguson publicly airing his dissatisfaction with his team several times. Each to their own say I, but in the end it doesn't matter a great deal, does it? Players will either act like wilting violets and fret like a child or they'll show some backbone and resolve.

Many of the greatest managers in the British game bollocked and defended their players in public, as the mood took them: Shankly, Busby Clough, Paisley, Ferguson, Revie, Mourinho. At United Bassett, Warnock and Wilder all did it. Players respect honesty and integrity above all imo. If they feel a public praise or slagging is disingenuous or done by the manager to protect himself, that's when they don't like it.

 

[ATL Recs]

No I completely agree with you. I think it was an emotional interview as he was angry but it was also motivational too. The same approach worked countless times before and the only reason this interview gets brought up is because of what followed.

I don't in any way think our demise was down to this at all. There is nothing at all wrong with the interview.

Didn’t this game come after a shit shoe at old Trafford and a shot shoe against Newcastle following up with shit shows against Everton and Southampton and started with a shit show at Villa though we should have scored that day

it was clear that we were on the wain victories against Chelsea n Spurs two teams in. Transition glossed over the issues

 

[ChappyAppleBlade]

Thanks Chris, all the best at Boro.

 

[Roygbiv]

Didn’t this game come after a shit shoe at old Trafford and a shot shoe against Newcastle following up with shit shows against Everton and Southampton and started with a shit show at Villa though we should have scored that day

it was clear that we were on the wain victories against Chelsea n Spurs two teams in. Transition glossed over the issues

It was our first defeat in 5. I don't think many people thought we are on the slide following that mini revival but obviously we were

 

[Bladesman]

 

[CornwallBlade]

Not sure which management tome you're referring to. I recall Alex Ferguson publicly airing his dissatisfaction with his team several times. Each to their own say I, but in the end it doesn't matter a great deal, does it? Players will either act like wilting violets and fret like a child or they'll show some backbone and resolve.

You make a fair point but I think Ferguson public criticisms usually, we’re an indication that a player was soon to be out of the door e.g. Beckham? Everyone knows about the hairdryer but that was in the privacy of the dressing room.
it’s the skill of management to recognise whether carrots or sticks are the way to get the best out of people as individuals. Confidence is everything and constantly broadcasting that his players were not as good as their opponents had to wear them down in the end. Contrasting his treatment of Duffy vs Lundstram says to me that he had favourites and that is a serious flaw in his character as a coach.
He was a one trick pony who couldn’t cut it at the highest level. Warnock was another. All this work hard, effort, commitment, win battles bollocks is pub league stuff. Of course there has to be intensity but the game at the highest level is way more subtle than that.
I still maintain that if crowds had been in ground, he’d have been sacked long before he walked and the damage to the team wouldn’t have been as deep.

 

[blade too long]

we are being far too deep and chasing too many conspiracy theories

the simple truth is Wilder was given by out standards a kings ransome to spend on players and he ballsed it up
princey would have been better saying keep finding the lumps of coal to turn into diamonds
instead he paid for diamonds that turned out to be glass

 

[PageHallBlade]

The thing is there's an element of hypocrisy with Wilder criticising players for new contracts when he himself got several.

Did greed play a factor in our demise?

and lets not forget the planted questiuon when we were at the bottomof the league where gids asked him about his contrcat talks that werent due to be renewed for another 18/24 months

 

[itsinyerblood]

You make a fair point but I think Ferguson public criticisms usually, we’re an indication that a player was soon to be out of the door e.g. Beckham? Everyone knows about the hairdryer but that was in the privacy of the dressing room.
it’s the skill of management to recognise whether carrots or sticks are the way to get the best out of people as individuals. Confidence is everything and constantly broadcasting that his players were not as good as their opponents had to wear them down in the end. Contrasting his treatment of Duffy vs Lundstram says to me that he had favourites and that is a serious flaw in his character as a coach.
He was a one trick pony who couldn’t cut it at the highest level. Warnock was another. All this work hard, effort, commitment, win battles bollocks is pub league stuff. Of course there has to be intensity but the game at the highest level is way more subtle than that.
I still maintain that if crowds had been in ground, he’d have been sacked long before he walked and the damage to the team wouldn’t have been as deep.

Let's get the mutual view of Wilder's fallibility out of the way first. Yes, his final season was chronic in terms of how players who had acquitted themselves so well the season before had now plummeted to become ordinary mortals. I think everyone, including Wilder and Knill, had lost their grip over all aspects of what had made their rise so successful. I've no idea why of course, I suspect that will always remain a mystery, at least for the common or garden variety of Blade.

What does run through your reply is the speculative approach so common to those supporters who think that it's possible to identify the exact reasons for our slump purely by laying out the reasons why in black and white. Speculation has been rife for ages within the ranks of United supporters. It's a case of diminishing returns, if you state something loud enough it must be at the root of why things went wrong, surely? Sadly the answer to that is no. It's completely inadequate to imagine that you grasp the realities of what happened unless you were there blow by blow, day in and day out.

Fiction has a place, just not as part of the re-telling of Wilder's demise and United's fall from grace. I wish I knew, I wish I could pontificate about this, that, or the other, but whatever the reasons for this crash, whatever the chemistry that was at play, what the Prince did or did not do, what timing contributed to the poor if not absent decisions that allowed us to become ordinary at best, but mostly poor by comparison to the heights we had reached, I'd love to know exactly what contributed to our fall. Somewhere between Wilder and the new owner we suffered while their personal psycho-drama played out in public.

 

[Sharrow Snuff Mill]

Let's get the mutual view of Wilder's fallibility out of the way first. Yes, his final season was chronic in terms of how players who had acquitted themselves so well the season before had now plummeted to become ordinary mortals. I think everyone, including Wilder and Knill, had lost their grip over all aspects of what had made their rise so successful. I've no idea why of course, I suspect that will always remain a mystery, at least for the common or garden variety of Blade.

What does run through your reply is the speculative approach so common to those supporters who think that it's possible to identify the exact reasons for our slump purely by laying out the reasons why in black and white. Speculation has been rife for ages within the ranks of United supporters. It's a case of diminishing returns, if you state something loud enough it must be at the root of why things went wrong, surely? Sadly the answer to that is no. It's completely inadequate to imagine that you grasp the realities of what happened unless you were there blow by blow, day in and day out.

Fiction has a place, just not as part of the re-telling of Wilder's demise and United's fall from grace. I wish I knew, I wish I could pontificate about this, that, or the other, but whatever the reasons for this crash, whatever the chemistry that was at play, what the Prince did or did not do, what timing contributed to the poor if not absent decisions that allowed us to become ordinary at best, but mostly poor by comparison to the heights we had reached, I'd love to know exactly what contributed to our fall. Somewhere between Wilder and the new owner we suffered while their personal psycho-drama played out in public.

I see four main reasons for our demise under Wilder :-

1) The punishing keep fit schedules imposed on the players during the first lockdown, from which they never fully recovered in a subsequent shortened Summer break.

2) The lack of our fans in the grounds giving passionate support.

3) Opposition teams working out how best to counteract our wing overloads system.

4) The signing of players for the future who were not ready to drop in and immediately perform. The choice of players, and fees paid, being much open to question.

 

[Hagansbootlaces]

I see four main reasons for our demise under Wilder :-

1) The punishing keep fit schedules imposed on the players during the first lockdown, from which they never fully recovered in a subsequent shortened Summer break.

2) The lack of our fans in the grounds giving passionate support.

3) Opposition teams working out how best to counteract our wing overloads system.

4) The signing of players for the future who were not ready to drop in and immediately perform. The choice of players, and fees paid, being much open to question.

5) Failure to find an adequate replacement for JOC, failure to adapt, despite weekly evidence overlapping centre backs only work when both CBs are capable, not just one.

I don't think the system was found out or countered, but when the threat is only on one side its far easier to defend.

 

[Sheff de party]

Roy Keane commented that the players at Manchester United threw Mourinho under the bus and that they'll do the same thing to OGS:

https://www.sportbible.com/football...ars-throwing-solskjaer-under-the-bus-20211025

He is essentially suggesting that there is a toxic culture there, and I looking back I wonder (though it's not good to speculate) if there's something similar going on here:



I know I've banged on about this press conference. Wilder was wrong in going about this publicly like that, it was unprofessional imho. Others may not agree with that, but that's not my point here.

Perhaps Wilder was right that our players have a poor attitude/culture?

The interview was bang out of order given everything the players had given and achieved. Add to that we were playing a team who were far better than us, it was just arrogance.

Love the guy for what he achieved but in that second season, he himself got “outthought” every single week. The players weren’t the only ones who got found out and that level.

I think he’s started to believe his own hype a bit by then. The fact he was out of a job less than a year later, with a laughable points return, and is now at Middlesbrough shows that although he may have thought he belonged at that level, he has a long way to go.

 

[Hagansbootlaces]

The interview was bang out of order given everything the players had given and achieved. Add to that we were playing a team who were far better than us, it was just arrogance.

Love the guy for what he achieved but in that second season, he himself got “outthought” every single week. The players weren’t the only ones who got found out and that level.

I think he’s started to believe his own hype a bit by then. The fact he was out of a job less than a year later, with a laughable points return, and is now at Middlesbrough shows that although he may have thought he belonged at that level, he has a long way to go.

CW even highlighted it before the PL season kicked off, regards the incredible amount of media interest compared to being in the Championship, literally worldwide interest, you add in the great first season we had, suddenly CW is the next big thing, rubbing shoulders with Klopp, Pep and being praised by both

 

[FMBlade1]

The interview was bang out of order given everything the players had given and achieved. Add to that we were playing a team who were far better than us, it was just arrogance.

Love the guy for what he achieved but in that second season, he himself got “outthought” every single week. The players weren’t the only ones who got found out and that level.

I think he’s started to believe his own hype a bit by then. The fact he was out of a job less than a year later, with a laughable points return, and is now at Middlesbrough shows that although he may have thought he belonged at that level, he has a long way to go.

I would agree with that.

My question is, although he was wrong to say it, was he wrong in saying that there is an unprofessional culture and attitude amongst the players?

 

[Champagneblade]

I wonder what would have happened if Dean Henderson hadn't collided with Jack O'Connell on the eve of the Villa match straight after lockdown?

 

[Sheff de party]

I would agree with that.

My question is, although he was wrong to say it, was he wrong in saying that there is an unprofessional culture and attitude amongst the players?

If there was, it was his job to sort it. He brought all those players in and he’s the gaffer.

 

[Bladesman]

 

[Chilttheblade]

All this this bollock analysis ,when are we going to let it drop?
Wilder was just a lucky manager,the stars aligned as they did before for other teams like Blackpool,Huddersfield,Barnsley,Oldham etc etc. Where are they now?
it was fun while it lasted,but we are where we are
If he was any good he would have seen the potential of Che Adams, Dominic Calvin Levin,Ramsdale ,Brooks etc and played the long game.
He isn’t and he didn’t