Good pass / bad pass - Joe and Jimmy

[Isaw Joeshaw]

As I’ve mentioned before I once had the privilege of having lunch with the great Nat Lofthouse who , and to my great delight , described Joe Shaw as being easily the finest centre half he had ever played against . One of the reasons he used to justify this was that Joe was the only player he had ever come up against who could turn a good pass into a bad one , and I knew exactly what he meant .

Those of us fortunate enough to have watched the great man in his prime will remember the innumerable occasions when we were in an extremely vulnerable situation , Little Joe as my dad always called him would suddenly appear as if from nowhere , calmly sweep the ball of the toes of an opposing player and put us back on the attack .

Thinking about this a few nights ago , it occurred to me that the converse of this is the fact that one of our other true greats , Jimmy Hagan, was possibly the best player I ever saw at turning a crap pass into a good one . He had the remarkable ability to take a ball coming to him at any height , pace or angle and in a single movement kill it stone dead and move forward ( never sideways or backwards ! )

I must confess I have seen others since then , notably the great Dennis Bergkamp , who had similar sublime control of a football but they are very few and far between .

 

[Weasel]

Unfortunately, a lot of the players nowadays are more interested in being able to master their control of the Play Station controller than that of the art of control of a football, nevermind one that is hit at them at pace and at different heights. The number of times I've shaken my head in disgust at professional players trying to control / trap a football from a relatively simple pass only for it to bounce off them....

My other pet hates in some footballers being 1) not being able to pass a simple 15 yard ball to the feet (or just in front of) a teammate in build up play, 2) not being able to pass and shoot with both feet. Those that do seem to have bothered to try and learn this 'art' look relatively decent/dangerous players as the can go with either foot and either way (if I was a coach I'd do regular exercises with em where they can only use their weaker foot), and 3) spitting on the pitch - you often see substitutes come running onto the pitch and spit on the floor before they've even touched the ball...what's all that about?! 4) Goalkeepers punching the ball when under no pressure and it's a simple ball to catch and take the pressure off the defence (this seems to be more prominent in the game now since a lot of overseas keepers came into the English leagues - watch footie from the 80s and compare). Maybe it's a way of making the relatively simple look more spectacular?

But back to the players with decent close control of the football....Colin Morris and Paul Devlin both had their skills here.

 

[Isaw Joeshaw]

The Euros so far has been littered with examples of players ballooning the ball over the bar from less than 10 yards out .

These are footballers considered to be very best to represent their country , who in many cases are earning several million pounds a year and who practice the game day in and day out .

WTF is that all about ??

 

[Tezza1889]

We can all be envious of the players you've seen, and rightly so because they were the greats...

Modern day Sheffield United fans, especially those in thier 20s haven't seen anybody close, because as fast as they showed talent, class, style, skill, and in Brooks case star quality that gets you off your seat..

They were sold...

Hope the Prince is one to break the cycle, let the stars shine, so the young lads n lasses can tell a similar story one day.

 

[Champagneblade]

As I’ve mentioned before I once had the privilege of having lunch with the great Nat Lofthouse who , and to my great delight , described Joe Shaw as being easily the finest centre half he had ever played against . One of the reasons he used to justify this was that Joe was the only player he had ever come up against who could turn a good pass into a bad one , and I knew exactly what he meant .

Those of us fortunate enough to have watched the great man in his prime will remember the innumerable occasions when we were in an extremely vulnerable situation , Little Joe as my dad always called him would suddenly appear as if from nowhere , calmly sweep the ball of the toes of an opposing player and put us back on the attack .

Thinking about this a few nights ago , it occurred to me that the converse of this is the fact that one of our other true greats , Jimmy Hagan, was possibly the best player I ever saw at turning a crap pass into a good one . He had the remarkable ability to take a ball coming to him at any height , pace or angle and in a single movement kill it stone dead and move forward ( never sideways or backwards ! )

I must confess I have seen others since then , notably the great Dennis Bergkamp , who had similar sublime control of a football but they are very few and far between .

Love this.

My Dad really rated Joe Shaw and thought Hagan was a magician as well.

It's a pity there is not more footage of that era as for all the talk of TC, I always got the impression that Hagan was regarded as the best. He also didn't leave us, unlike TC.

 

[Blade.com]

The Euros so far has been littered with examples of players ballooning the ball over the bar from less than 10 yards out .

These are footballers considered to be very best to represent their country , who in many cases are earning several million pounds a year and who practice the game day in and day out .

WTF is that all about ??

What gets my goat is: not beating the first defender from a corner kick. Really annoying, makes you wonder what the hell they do in training, as you say they can balloon a ball over the bar from 15/20 yards but when it comes to corners they can't get it over a 5 foot 8 inch defender. I think the only plan they have is pack the area hoping to get pulled down and (win) a penalty.

 

[ATL Recs]

The Euros so far has been littered with examples of players ballooning the ball over the bar from less than 10 yards out .

These are footballers considered to be very best to represent their country , who in many cases are earning several million pounds a year and who practice the game day in and day out .

WTF is that all about ??

Different game much much faster different ball players technically and physically on another level - those old case balls were much easier to control ideal for levelling skills off on muddy heavy uneven pitches - heading them was another matter
It’s all theory though - what could those players have done with the resources their compatriots have today ?

 

[wizadry]

The Euros so far has been littered with examples of players ballooning the ball over the bar from less than 10 yards out .

These are footballers considered to be very best to represent their country , who in many cases are earning several million pounds a year and who practice the game day in and day out .

WTF is that all about ??

I noticed and mentioned this in about the 3rd or 4th day of the tournament, it’s done my nut in how shite the shooting has been in general. Let’s not get started on set pieces, wow, they’ve been shocking. Not one free kick scored and the corners have been shite.

Too much gym work and too much concentration on ‘team shape’ in training are why these types of game play are going to the scrap yard. Whilst it’s been a decent tournament in general there’s aspects of the game that need improving big time, these are supposed to be the best players in the world, they should be able to do most things on a pitch, fairly comfortably too.

 

[Edgar Allan Poo]

Unfortunately, a lot of the players nowadays are more interested in being able to master their control of the Play Station controller than that of the art of control of a football, nevermind one that is hit at them at pace and at different heights. The number of times I've shaken my head in disgust at professional players trying to control / trap a football from a relatively simple pass only for it to bounce off them....

My other pet hates in some footballers being 1) not being able to pass a simple 15 yard ball to the feet (or just in front of) a teammate in build up play, 2) not being able to pass and shoot with both feet. Those that do seem to have bothered to try and learn this 'art' look relatively decent/dangerous players as the can go with either foot and either way (if I was a coach I'd do regular exercises with em where they can only use their weaker foot), and 3) spitting on the pitch - you often see substitutes come running onto the pitch and spit on the floor before they've even touched the ball...what's all that about?! 4) Goalkeepers punching the ball when under no pressure and it's a simple ball to catch and take the pressure off the defence (this seems to be more prominent in the game now since a lot of overseas keepers came into the English leagues - watch footie from the 80s and compare). Maybe it's a way of making the relatively simple look more spectacular?

But back to the players with decent close control of the football....Colin Morris and Paul Devlin both had their skills here.

Surely there's nothing more terrifying for a defender than having a midfielder with speed equally adept with both feet hurtling towards you and not knowing what the hell he's going to do?

 

[stringjunior]

Surely there's nothing more terrifying for a defender than hearing Team Chanser are interested and not knowing what the hell he's going to do?

Fixed it for you

 

[Edgar Allan Poo]

Fixed it for you

Er, thanks....!

 

[CrookesBlade]

Unfortunately, a lot of the players nowadays are more interested in being able to master their control of the Play Station controller than that of the art of control of a football, nevermind one that is hit at them at pace and at different heights. The number of times I've shaken my head in disgust at professional players trying to control / trap a football from a relatively simple pass only for it to bounce off them....

My other pet hates in some footballers being 1) not being able to pass a simple 15 yard ball to the feet (or just in front of) a teammate in build up play, 2) not being able to pass and shoot with both feet. Those that do seem to have bothered to try and learn this 'art' look relatively decent/dangerous players as the can go with either foot and either way (if I was a coach I'd do regular exercises with em where they can only use their weaker foot), and 3) spitting on the pitch - you often see substitutes come running onto the pitch and spit on the floor before they've even touched the ball...what's all that about?! 4) Goalkeepers punching the ball when under no pressure and it's a simple ball to catch and take the pressure off the defence (this seems to be more prominent in the game now since a lot of overseas keepers came into the English leagues - watch footie from the 80s and compare). Maybe it's a way of making the relatively simple look more spectacular?

But back to the players with decent close control of the football....Colin Morris and Paul Devlin both had their skills here.

The goalkeeper 'punch' became more of a thing in this country in the late 90s/early 2000s.

I'd hazard a guess that its for two reasons:

1) The amount of protection afforded to keepers now means they can challenge for balls they wouldn't have dreamed of coming for previously, as long as they get something on the ball they will either clear their lines or win the free kick. Previously if they were coming for a punch a nudge in the back would have taken them out and left an open goal.

2) a punch can launch a counter attack as opposed to the keeper catching then booting it downfield when everybody is back in position.

On the point about players trapping the ball, I noticed in all the games last night far (and throughout these Euros) too many players trying to be too clever with their first touch and get in on goal when a simple lay off would have done the job, or hanging on to the ball for far too long and then releasing a poor final ball when they've overrun instead of playing their team mate through first time.

 

[Houston_Blade]

Another Blades player who should be lauded for his ability is Nick Montgomery. I've never seen another player so good at making sure his 2nd touch was always a 30:70 tackle. Being so consistent with your first touch should be applauded.

 

[Caseh]

I think you’re looking back with tinted glasses. Football now is massively quicker, the speed of the players but also the passing, shooting, phases in play etc are all quicker than they used to be. Also tactically teams are much more astute, teams now know how to crowd you out, or press quickly. Essentially players now just have much, much less time on the ball than they ever did before.

 

[Weasel]

Another Blades player who should be lauded for his ability is Nick Montgomery. I've never seen another player so good at making sure his 2nd touch was always a 30:70 tackle. Being so consistent with your first touch should be applauded.

And Tom Cowan. Like our Nick he was another player who was so confident in his tackling ability that he consistently gave the ball away with his first touch just so that he could win it back again with a tackle with his 2nd.

Joking apart, I actually really liked both players as despite their limitations, they both wore their heart on their sleeve and cared for the red n white shirt. Especially Monty who is a top man.

 

[Houston_Blade]

And Tom Cowan. Like our Nick he was another player who was so confident in his tackling ability that he consistently gave the ball away with his first touch just so that he could win it back again with a tackle with his 2nd.

Joking apart, I actually really liked both players as despite their limitations, they both wore their heart on their sleeve and cared for the red n white shirt. Especially Monty who is a top man.

We all love a trier.

 

[CrookesBlade]

I noticed and mentioned this in about the 3rd or 4th day of the tournament, it’s done my nut in how shite the shooting has been in general. Let’s not get started on set pieces, wow, they’ve been shocking. Not one free kick scored and the corners have been shite.

Too much gym work and too much concentration on ‘team shape’ in training are why these types of game play are going to the scrap yard. Whilst it’s been a decent tournament in general there’s aspects of the game that need improving big time, these are supposed to be the best players in the world, they should be able to do most things on a pitch, fairly comfortably too.

I think the problem with international football in this regard is players don't mind trying the more audacious attempts for their country as its not their bread and butter but they've a real chance at personal glory. If they tried some of these efforts for their clubs they'd get hammered.

Lukaku and Ronaldo in the game last night exemplified this. Wasting free kicks by shooting from miles out.

 

[Blade.com]

It's nice to see some countries showing pride and passion though. Italians sing their National athem with gusto. Denmark piling over to their fans. We get Tyrone Mings chewing gum to hide the fact he doesn't want to sing the National anthem. Come on Tyrone, don't hide behind chewing gum,just don't sing it if that's your choice. Only my opinion , hope I'm wrong.

 

[ancientblade]

I think the problem with international football in this regard is players don't mind trying the more audacious attempts for their country as its not their bread and butter but they've a real chance at personal glory. If they tried some of these efforts for their clubs they'd get hammered.

Lukaku and Ronaldo in the game last night exemplified this. Wasting free kicks by shooting from miles out.

its always been about personal glory with ronaldo

 

[Blade.com]

I've always thought that. Bit like Sir Geoffrey Boycott at cricket.

 

[Stretch]

As I’ve mentioned before I once had the privilege of having lunch with the great Nat Lofthouse who , and to my great delight , described Joe Shaw as being easily the finest centre half he had ever played against . One of the reasons he used to justify this was that Joe was the only player he had ever come up against who could turn a good pass into a bad one , and I knew exactly what he meant .

Those of us fortunate enough to have watched the great man in his prime will remember the innumerable occasions when we were in an extremely vulnerable situation , Little Joe as my dad always called him would suddenly appear as if from nowhere , calmly sweep the ball of the toes of an opposing player and put us back on the attack .

Thinking about this a few nights ago , it occurred to me that the converse of this is the fact that one of our other true greats , Jimmy Hagan, was possibly the best player I ever saw at turning a crap pass into a good one . He had the remarkable ability to take a ball coming to him at any height , pace or angle and in a single movement kill it stone dead and move forward ( never sideways or backwards ! )

I must confess I have seen others since then , notably the great Dennis Bergkamp , who had similar sublime control of a football but they are very few and far between .

Joe Shaw was way before my time, so I wasn't lucky enough to have seen him.

Whilst I realise that we are probably talking about a completely different level of player, the part of your post that I have highlighted reminds me of how I used to feel about Jake Wright when I watched him play.

His awareness, positioning and knack of snuffing out danger just before it became a serious threat was almost eerie. I used to joke that he could slow down time, as he would frequently pop up out of nowhere and calmly slot the ball into safety, whilst his team mates and opponents were entangled in chaos all around him.

I genuinely think that he was wasted in the lower leagues for so many years. Many will say that he was exposed in the Champ, but I didn't think he looked out of place, before the injuries took hold anyway.

 

[Wards]

A lot more difficult to balloon a ball that weighed about 2kg more than they do today! If you've played with a modern football you'll know what I mean in that regard, even compared to footballs of the mid-90s. The newer generation of footballs absolutely ping with minimal effort.

 

[Oreyt]

The Euros so far has been littered with examples of players ballooning the ball over the bar from less than 10 yards out .

These are footballers considered to be very best to represent their country , who in many cases are earning several million pounds a year and who practice the game day in and day out .

WTF is that all about ??

Some of the shooting has been terrible hasn't it?

 

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

Different game much much faster different ball players technically and physically on another level - those old case balls were much easier to control ideal for levelling skills off on muddy heavy uneven pitches - heading them was another matter
It’s all theory though - what could those players have done with the resources their compatriots have today ?

A lot of truth in that. I think several points made so far on this thread come from the fitness levels and changes to the football (e.g. goalkeepers opting to push the ball away because of its swerve). I thought the reason for so many shots going over the bar was largely to do with the lighter ball, but the strange thing this time is the lack of goals from free-kicks - the lighter swerving ball is made for spectacular goals, but none have come so far. Why is that? I can’t think of a good reason (big goalkeepers, big players in the wall?).

 

[Isaw Joeshaw]

Joe Shaw was way before my time, so I wasn't lucky enough to have seen him.

Whilst I realise that we are probably talking about a completely different level of player, the part of your post that I have highlighted reminds me of how I used to feel about Jake Wright when I watched him play.

His awareness, positioning and knack of snuffing out danger just before it became a serious threat was almost eerie. I used to joke that he could slow down time, as he would frequently pop up out of nowhere and calmly slot the ball into safety, whilst his team mates and opponents were entangled in chaos all around him.

I genuinely think that he was wasted in the lower leagues for so many years. Many will say that he was exposed in the Champ, but I didn't think he looked out of place, before the injuries took hold anyway.

I agree and have pointed out similarities between the two in that aspect of his game in the past .

 

[wizadry]

A lot more difficult to balloon a ball that weighed about 2kg more than they do today! If you've played with a modern football you'll know what I mean in that regard, even compared to footballs of the mid-90s. The newer generation of footballs absolutely ping with minimal effort.

I know what you’re saying but they don’t train with different weight balls, they train with the same weight and play with the same weight, they should be able to adapt either way, if they’re blaming the ball then get the medicine balls out for them.

Do the newer balls ping straight to the first man on nearly every corner too, no they don’t ping, that’s just it, they hit the first man though. I can only put it down to not enough training is done on it. It’s like anything in life, if you don’t do enough of it you will gradually get worse at it, in any aspect.

It’s all about team shape, fitness training, gym work then a round of golf to finish the day off, the first three in no particular order.

 

[wizadry]

I think the problem with international football in this regard is players don't mind trying the more audacious attempts for their country as its not their bread and butter but they've a real chance at personal glory. If they tried some of these efforts for their clubs they'd get hammered.

Lukaku and Ronaldo in the game last night exemplified this. Wasting free kicks by shooting from miles out.

A lot aren’t audacious efforts though, they’re really good chances, ones you’d expect them to shoot at goal at anyway.

I know what you’re saying regards the players in question, I must say Lukaku is terrible with a ball and running with it, he looses it nearly every time I see him play, he also doesn’t do it in the big games, that’s why Belgium have never won anything. They are the only international team to get to number one in the world without winning anything, they need a better striker, that’s all they’re missing. Sorry to go off on a tangent.

 

[Big Hitter]

Great to see Joe Shaw mentioned on here. Here is a guy who first played for the first team in 1948 , stayed with us to 1966. developed from an inside forward to a good wing half, then into a magnificent centre half, Faced down Lofthouse , Clough, Dooley et al in his time and never gave his manager a moment of trouble.

 

[XM657]

Putting my 2d'eneth in regards the ball, I feel that the should be designed as a constant, weight and size and the casing, which I'm sure they are by and large. Members, I read, infer that todays balls are designed to act "erratically" in flight.
I don't know, but if so I find that strange and not in the spirit of the game, where ball deviation, should be brought about by the action of the participant propelling the ball by a particular action of there own.
Ball weight, the older members will remember when the full sized 'plastic' balls came out. At playtime/breaktime instead of a tennis ball you could play on asphalt with a proper sized ball. Remember, a different approach had to be made because of the differing weights with the leather ball. Surly players, of all standards, to- day do the same.
Could it be the ball aught to be a little heavier or is it still the same weight as it was 50 years or so ago, just don't absorb moisture.
Regarding goalkeepers, got to bring them back into the game. I feel they are too isolated/protected and watching the present tournament spoil the general flow of a game.
Bloody strolling around in the area, ball in hand, and cannot be challenged.
Goalies have an advantage over the other 20 players, so get them back into the game and stop using them as an excuse to have a breather. It doesn't have to be more dangerous, legislate, as has been done in the past, but this time make it more evenly balanced, players will adapt, they aren't as stupid, as we all seem to think from time to time.

 

[Big Hitter]

Putting my 2d'eneth in regards the ball, I feel that the should be designed as a constant, weight and size and the casing, which I'm sure they are by and large. Members, I read, infer that todays balls are designed to act "erratically" in flight.
I don't know, but if so I find that strange and not in the spirit of the game, where ball deviation, should be brought about by the action of the participant propelling the ball by a particular action of there own.
Ball weight, the older members will remember when the full sized 'plastic' balls came out. At playtime/breaktime instead of a tennis ball you could play on asphalt with a proper sized ball. Remember, a different approach had to be made because of the differing weights with the leather ball. Surly players, of all standards, to- day do the same.
Could it be the ball aught to be a little heavier or is it still the same weight as it was 50 years or so ago, just don't absorb moisture.
Regarding goalkeepers, got to bring them back into the game. I feel they are too isolated/protected and watching the present tournament spoil the general flow of a game.
Bloody strolling around in the area, ball in hand, and cannot be challenged.
Goalies have an advantage over the other 20 players, so get them back into the game and stop using them as an excuse to have a breather. It doesn't have to be more dangerous, legislate, as has been done in the past, but this time make it more evenly balanced, players will adapt, they aren't as stupid, as we all seem to think from time to time.

Drives me mad when the moment a goalie gets the ball from a header or shot he collapses with it on the ground as though he's been shot.
Should be some legislation about passing the ball back anyway. How many times do teams come back from the 18yd line and it goes back to centre back or even goalie.! Why not a 3 pass back maximum rule , before a free kick is awarded