Watching Norwich and watford

[pommpey]

Previous boardrooms have done a fantastic job of attracting a special sort of "expect nothing, and dream of nothing sort of fan"

Well, previous boards have had the propensity to sell our most prodigious players for ten Bensons and a June 1982 copy of Razzle (some pages 'water damaged') and replace them with lesser figures of footballing worth. They've also come up with terms like 'Game Changing Investments' whilst posing for pictures with Connor Sammon and Jay McEveley holding up a Blades shirt having recently sold Harry Maguire, Dominic Calvert-Lewin and even Jamie Murphy in the previous years.

Fantastic job. Yes.

pommpey

 

[Carlton Blade]

I actually think United being so bad and Berge getting injured works in our favour in terms of a transfer fee. I don't think he's being blamed for his performances for United or the subsequent drop in team performances. Basically, "everything is a shit show, what did you expect him to do?"

I think he'll have at least retained his value and we may see a modest profit, probably based on attainable add ons

 

[Revolution]

And you think that stellar strike rate was the sole reason we finished ninth?

Six goals. Not one full match. Mostly benched or injured.

That's some return. Maybe if we'd bought a more robust, capable striker we'd have had more goals and more of a return this season.

But, be my guest. Excuse his pisspoor value as worthy all you can. In fact, keep chanting 'last season's joint top scorer' enough, and like McBurnie (the other holder of that coveted crown) it all goes away ...

pommpey

Actually, 9 million quid is probably about the going rate for 6 goals and 5 assists in the PL.

Mousset has been a waste of wages this season but his contribution last season should not be waved away: it was not nothing. It was one of the reasons we finished ninth, there is no doubt of that.

There is an argument that the Mousset deal was an excellent deal for us from a financial perspective.

 

[stringer]

You mean 'Nathan Ake, of Chelsea, loaned to Reading, then Watford (Premier League), then Bournemouth (Premier League, but still a Chelsea player) then permanently to Bournemouth (in the Premier League) until they too were relegated.

I'd say Ake had Premier League 'pedigree', wouldn't you? He also didn't miss more than half his first, whole Premier League season with a long term injury. Berge hasn't completed one season with us, so not much Premier League pedigree. During that period, he's hardly ripped up many trees, has he?

pommpey

Which way?

 

[ChrisBlade]

Guys, Pommpey enjoys meandering from polarized argument to polarized argument, defending the poles. It‘s his bread and butter trade. Berge to Mousset will only mean one thing: Jack Rodwell or any other certified dud is bound to pop up next in a world where everything was grossly mismanaged amongst references to waterdamaged copies of eighties porn and other juicy in the navy imagery. It is entertaining but do you really expect him to move or yield?

The pirouette about goals scored when assessing defensive midfielders on this very thread is a perfect example.

As Pommpey always wants opinions: Berge has not had a huge tangible effect on our fortunes, but remains young and has certainly looked the part in a „good player in the wrong team kind of way“. As such I would be very surprised if he isn’t bought for at least what we paid on potential and mystique alone. To me he looks every inch a Dortmund, Leipzig or Arsenal reclamation project who throw 25 at it, expecting to get 40 back at age 25.

 

[pommpey]

Which way?

Great bit of facetiousness.

Would you say Nathan Ake was also very much several steps above the then-failing Bournemouth and the most likely candidate to leave for a top six club once again?

Now, tell me, from what you have seen with Berge he is even near that level of footballing delivery. He's not, is he?

pommpey

 

[Carlton Blade]

Great bit of facetiousness.

Would you say Nathan Ake was also very much several steps above the then-failing Bournemouth and the most likely candidate to leave for a top six club once again?

Now, tell me, from what you have seen with Berge he is even near that level of footballing delivery. He's not, is he?

pommpey

To be fair Ake went for the release clause value in his contract because City couldn't be arsed to negotiate

 

[pommpey]

Guys, Pommpey enjoys meandering from polarized argument to polarized argument, defending the poles. It‘s his bread and butter trade. Berge to Mousset will only mean one thing: Jack Rodwell or any other certified dud is bound to pop up next in a world where everything was grossly mismanaged amongst references to waterdamaged copies of eighties porn and other juicy in the navy imagery. It is entertaining but do you really expect him to move or yield?

How can Jack Rodwell pop up when he's not played one game for us (or has he? can't remember) And we aren't debating Rodwell's transfer worth, are we? Mentioning Mousset and Berge is relevant, and hardly 'the poles'. One is a patent cuckoo in the Sheffield United nest (regardless of how some go on about how sweet his song was once, he's now too fucking fat to be of any use, even for flying) and the other one is being touted as a potential cash cow based on dubious reputation with his last game being nearly five months ago.

The pirouette about goals scored when assessing defensive midfielders on this very thread is a perfect example.

Well, lets look at other Midfielders (but, um ... Berge has not actually played as a DM in Wilder's ailing, failing system, let's be clear):

Jonjo Shelvey - 15 Apps 2 Goals
Jeff Hendrick - 16 Apps 2 Goals
Steven Alzate - 14 Apps 2 Goals
Jahanbakahsh - 18 Apps 2 Goals
Romain Saiss - 21 Apps 3 Goals

and that's just the bottom clubs (how many has our midfield scored, even between them?)

and at the top (where we expect Berge to be purchased)

Gundogan 23 Apps 12 Goals
Ndombele 25 Apps 3 Goals
Saka 22 Apps 5 Goals

These goals are all scored from 'Midfield'. The players all start in that position across the park. There's no pirouetting on this. Berge this season has created one goal and scored one goal and produced 'what' in his time on the pitch? Anyone can 'show' some sort of ability, but unless it makes a difference on the game it's as good as worthless. For every bit of 'holding onto the ball and using his physique' he demonstrated (which is his stock in trade) he's making a shit near post clearance from a corner which bounces straight to Gallagher, who boots it in the net, and then is part of a team who could not score in a whore-house on Judgement Day.

As Pommpey always wants opinions: Berge has not had a huge tangible effect on our fortunes, but remains young and has certainly looked the part in a „good player in the wrong team kind of way“. As such I would be very surprised if he isn’t bought for at least what we paid on potential and mystique alone. To me he looks every inch a Dortmund, Leipzig or Arsenal reclamation project who throw 25 at it, expecting to get 40 back at age 25.

'Potential and mystique'? Is that what we bought all our other bunch of transfers-in for as well? Jesus.

"Tell thi what, Knilly. I'm thinking about buying that Oliver McBurnie."
"What? Instead of Neil Maupuy? Why's that?"
"Potential, Knilly. Raw potential. And there's summat else about him as well."
"Mystique?"
"Aye lad. Mystique. That's it. He's mystical. Pass us another Peroni, and get thi sen one an' all."

pommpey

 

[Niceguyeddie]

How can Jack Rodwell pop up when he's not played one game for us (or has he? can't remember) And we aren't debating Rodwell's transfer worth, are we? Mentioning Mousset and Berge is relevant, and hardly 'the poles'. One is a patent cuckoo in the Sheffield United nest (regardless of how some go on about how sweet his song was once, he's now too fucking fat to be of any use, even for flying) and the other one is being touted as a potential cash cow based on dubious reputation with his last game being nearly five months ago.



Well, lets look at other Midfielders (but, um ... Berge has not actually played as a DM in Wilder's ailing, failing system, let's be clear):

Jonjo Shelvey - 15 Apps 2 Goals
Jeff Hendrick - 16 Apps 2 Goals
Steven Alzate - 14 Apps 2 Goals
Jahanbakahsh - 18 Apps 2 Goals
Romain Saiss - 21 Apps 3 Goals

and that's just the bottom clubs (how many has our midfield scored, even between them?)

and at the top (where we expect Berge to be purchased)

Gundogan 23 Apps 12 Goals
Ndombele 25 Apps 3 Goals
Saka 22 Apps 5 Goals

These goals are all scored from 'Midfield'. The players all start in that position across the park. There's no pirouetting on this. Berge this season has created one goal and scored one goal and produced 'what' in his time on the pitch? Anyone can 'show' some sort of ability, but unless it makes a difference on the game it's as good as worthless. For every bit of 'holding onto the ball and using his physique' he demonstrated (which is his stock in trade) he's making a shit near post clearance from a corner which bounces straight to Gallagher, who boots it in the net, and then is part of a team who could not score in a whore-house on Judgement Day.



'Potential and mystique'? Is that what we bought all our other bunch of transfers-in for as well? Jesus.

"Tell thi what, Knilly. I'm thinking about buying that Oliver McBurnie."
"What? Instead of Neil Maupuy? Why's that?"
"Potential, Knilly. Raw potential. And there's summat else about him as well."
"Mystique?"
"Aye lad. Mystique. That's it. He's mystical. Pass us another Peroni, and get thi sen one an' all."

pommpey

 

[pommpey]

Is that you at the back?

pommpey

 

[Niceguyeddie]

Is that you at the back?

pommpey

No that's Steve buscemi

 

[pommpey]

No that's Steve buscemi

Is he one of Wilder's signings?

pommpey

 

[Niceguyeddie]

Is he one of Wilder's signings?

pommpey

He's a famous actor , writer and director who was a fireman once

 

[LudlamBlade]

Norges Fotballforbund (NFF)
Serviceboks 1 Ullevaal Stadion
N-0840 Oslo
Norway

Here you go pommpey, that's the address for the Norwegian football federation.

I reckon you should send them a letter outlining your impeccable football knowledge, garnered from a lifetime of working at the top levels of the game, and tell them that he's not really that good and that they shouldn't bother picking him for internationals...even when he's injured...just because his presence is seen as that important to the Norwegian golden generation.

Probably add a PS for Erling Haaland as well, remind him that he's not actually that good and that he really shouldn't enjoy playing with him as much as he does.

Care to back your words with a wager?

If Berge leaves for less than £30m I'll buy you 30 pints.

 

[pommpey]

Norges Fotballforbund (NFF)
Serviceboks 1 Ullevaal Stadion
N-0840 Oslo
Norway

Here you go pommpey, that's the address for the Norwegian football federation.

I reckon you should send them a letter outlining your impeccable football knowledge, garnered from a lifetime of working at the top levels of the game, and tell them that he's not really that good and that they shouldn't bother picking him for internationals...even when he's injured...just because his presence is seen as that important to the Norwegian golden generation.

Probably add a PS for Erling Haaland as well, remind him that he's not actually that good and that he really shouldn't enjoy playing with him as much as he does.

Care to back your words with a wager?

If Berge leaves for less than £30m I'll buy you 30 pints.

Keep your beer. Betting on summat like that is a bit 'pointless' isn't it?

Also, instead of me writing to the Norwegian FA in some demonstrably stupid gesture just to scratch your itch that says 'I can't debate this issue properly', why not provide us all with the evidence which upholds a £30m transfer fee? Y'know, a full season of games, first person picked on the team lists, at least five goals and ten assists, games where he has just ran that midfield?

Nah. Instead, we are stuck with Lundstram - Norwood - Fleck and him crocked having played under half a season. Thirty million plus is that. I can see Man City and Arsenal just reaching for the cheque book as we speak ...

pommpey

 

[pommpey]

He's a famous actor , writer and director who was a fireman once

Oh. I thought he'd been brought in as cover for the kitman or summat.

Thanks for clearing that up.

pommpey

 

[Niceguyeddie]

Keep your beer. Betting on summat like that is a bit 'pointless' isn't it?

Also, instead of me writing to the Norwegian FA in some demonstrably stupid gesture just to scratch your itch that says 'I can't debate this issue properly', why not provide us all with the evidence which upholds a £30m transfer fee? Y'know, a full season of games, first person picked on the team lists, at least five goals and ten assists, games where he has just ran that midfield?

Nah. Instead, we are stuck with Lundstram - Norwood - Fleck and him crocked having played under half a season. Thirty million plus is that. I can see Man City and Arsenal just reaching for the cheque book as we speak ...

pommpey

Debating it properly ? You started by saying we won't get ten million for him

 

[pommpey]

Debating it properly ? You started by saying we won't get ten million for him

Yep. Opening statement. It's a usual tactic in debating. Usually people don't respond by posting up daft gifs though and not underpinning counter arguments with evidence to support their opinions.

pommpey

 

[Niceguyeddie]

Yep. Opening statement. It's a usual tactic in debating. Usually people don't respond by posting up daft gifs though and not underpinning counter arguments with evidence to support their opinions.

pommpey

I told you he was way ahead in the player ratings and you spent about 12 hrs mocking those ratings as if the opinion of an ex sailor is more pertinent than every one else's

So you don't want to debate really do you ? You just want to go round and round

 

[Carlton Blade]

Clubs are going to use the evidence of his play at Genk as well as at United. They'll focus on the games we were competitive in because they'll know they won't play any games like the ones we do when we aren't (backs to the wall, lump it, no attacking threat).

I think he'll retain his value

 

[pommpey]

I told you he was way ahead in the player ratings and you spent about 12 hrs mocking those ratings as if the opinion of an ex sailor is more pertinent than every one else's

So you don't want to debate really do you ? You just want to go round and round

Well, aside from bringing my employment and personal status into this (always the last resort of someone who is failing badly at what they do and very ad hominem) I'd just like to update you that I am a current member of HM Armed Forces - still. I hold a valid ID card and wear a uniform (when needed) Just thought I'd update you on that.

Nevertheless, I doubt even Pep Guardiola and his transfer team of qualified scouts, coaches, financial advisers and business managers would bear much credence even if I were to blow sunshine out of Berge's arsehole, let alone 'everyone else's' (you sure 'everyone else' gave him at least above five out of ten for every game?) Even if they did, do you think that assessment will make it into the reports and paperwork presented to Guardiola and the board when discussing how much to bid for him?

Finally, what planet are you on?

pommpey

 

[Niceguyeddie]

Well, aside from bringing my employment and personal status into this (always the last resort of someone who is failing badly at what they do and very ad hominem) I'd just like to update you that I am a current member of HM Armed Forces - still. I hold a valid ID card and wear a uniform (when needed) Just thought I'd update you on that.

Nevertheless, I doubt even Pep Guardiola and his transfer team of qualified scouts, coaches, financial advisers and business managers would bear much credence even if I were to blow sunshine out of Berge's arsehole, let alone 'everyone else's' (you sure 'everyone else' gave him at least above five out of ten for every game?) Even if they did, do you think that assessment will make it into the reports and paperwork presented to Guardiola and the board when discussing how much to bid for him?

Finally, what planet are you on?

pommpey

Sorry mate but I really can't be arsed to trawl through your posts anymore
As I've said before we will see how much he is worth when he leaves

 

[LudlamBlade]

Keep your beer. Betting on summat like that is a bit 'pointless' isn't it?

Also, instead of me writing to the Norwegian FA in some demonstrably stupid gesture just to scratch your itch that says 'I can't debate this issue properly', why not provide us all with the evidence which upholds a £30m transfer fee? Y'know, a full season of games, first person picked on the team lists, at least five goals and ten assists, games where he has just ran that midfield?

Nah. Instead, we are stuck with Lundstram - Norwood - Fleck and him crocked having played under half a season. Thirty million plus is that. I can see Man City and Arsenal just reaching for the cheque book as we speak ...

pommpey

I don't know mate, I'm not the one trying to profess my all knowing football market omnipotence to everyone who will listen.

I, like many other football fans, am going off the opinions of managers, players and figureheads within the game (both past and present) who seem to agree, mostly, that Sander Berge is a player of fine quality and vast potential, who is regularly touted as being worth £30-40m. By people with actual, genuine knowledge of the game at a professional level...not just some bloke with a computer keyboard and a colourful rhetoric.

But, alongside the arguments of several professional figures within the game, how about some similar transfer fees from recent transactions within the current market?

Partey - £45m
Watkins - £35m
Godfrey - £25m
Fofana - £31m
Fabio Silva - £36m

It could easily be argued that only Partey justified that fee, as the others were all totally unproven at the top level, other than Godfrey having one season in the PL's worst defence that year.

The fee is paid based on the opinions of EXPERTS with ACTUAL KNOWLEDGE and EXPERIENCE from within football.

I've no interest in debating the issue with you, for the simple reason that I'd rather trust the opinions of actual football people, than some random bloke from South Yorkshire.

And it seems to me that you've no interest in debating the issue with anyone, you just want to counter every statement with contrasting (usually dramatically phrased) arguments...whether that means u-turning on your original stance or not.

So I'll leave ye to it

 

[Balham]

United's midfield goals and assists output this season (stats from understat; I've ignored McGoldrick (63 mins in midfield) and Brewster (72 mins in midfield, apparently)):



Who's that at the top for goals and assists per 90 minutes? Would that me the much maligned Sander Berge? Even if you take away the penalty against Liverpool he'd still be second on the xG list despite playing around half the minutes of Norwood, Fleck and Lundstram.

I should point out that this is the crux of our failings this season - we're 30 games in and the sum total of statistical expected goals from our midfield is under 4 while the sum of expected assists only just sneaks past 7. That is woeful.

 

[JackSUFC]

Well, lets look at other Midfielders (but, um ... Berge has not actually played as a DM in Wilder's ailing, failing system, let's be clear):

Jonjo Shelvey - 15 Apps 2 Goals
Jeff Hendrick - 16 Apps 2 Goals
Steven Alzate - 14 Apps 2 Goals
Jahanbakahsh - 18 Apps 2 Goals
Romain Saiss - 21 Apps 3 Goals

and that's just the bottom clubs (how many has our midfield scored, even between them?)

and at the top (where we expect Berge to be purchased)

Gundogan 23 Apps 12 Goals
Ndombele 25 Apps 3 Goals
Saka 22 Apps 5 Goals

These goals are all scored from 'Midfield'. The players all start in that position across the park. There's no pirouetting on this. Berge this season has created one goal and scored one goal and produced 'what' in his time on the pitch? Anyone can 'show' some sort of ability, but unless it makes a difference on the game it's as good as worthless. For every bit of 'holding onto the ball and using his physique' he demonstrated (which is his stock in trade) he's making a shit near post clearance from a corner which bounces straight to Gallagher, who boots it in the net, and then is part of a team who could not score in a whore-house on Judgement Day.

Comparing Berge to some of these players shows you don't understand the type of midfielder he is. You've even listed Saka who is a pacy, skilful winger and I'm not sure why you would do that.

He's naturally a deep-lying, ball-playing midfielder, not a box-to-box or a creative attacking type. It's a bit like asking why Sergio Busquets doesn't score/assist 20 a season for Barcelona.

He's not going to influence the game with goals and assists but he will influence games by controlling them at the base of the midfield. He does also have the ability to break through the lines and carry the ball forward if you watch him play. That's probably why Wilder decided to play him a bit more advanced.

Either way I know he's not the muck-and-nettles Monty type that our fans have been programmed to think midfielders should be.

Didnt they sell Ben Godfrey and one other top player?

Yeah they did to be fair. Think the other you're thinking of is Lewis who went to Newcastle but hardly a top player.

 

[Carlton Blade]

United's midfield goals and assists output this season (stats from understat; I've ignored McGoldrick (63 mins in midfield) and Brewster (72 mins in midfield, apparently)):

View attachment 110204

Who's that at the top for goals and assists per 90 minutes? Would that me the much maligned Sander Berge? Even if you take away the penalty against Liverpool he'd still be second on the xG list despite playing around half the minutes of Norwood, Fleck and Lundstram.

I should point out that this is the crux of our failings this season - we're 30 games in and the sum total of statistical expected goals from our midfield is under 4 while the sum of expected assists only just sneaks past 7. That is woeful.

That's hilariously bad

 

[Balham]

That's hilariously bad

bUt ThErE's NoThInG wRoNg WiTh ThE sYsTeM

 

[pommpey]

I don't know mate, I'm not the one trying to profess my all knowing football market omnipotence to everyone who will listen.

Neither am I. I am however trying to back up my opinion on Sander Berge and his future transfer fee, on this football forum. If you don't want to listen, then don't. I don't care and neither does anyone else. If you however have countering opinion of evidence, let's see it.

I, like many other football fans, am going off the opinions of managers, players and figureheads within the game (both past and present) who seem to agree, mostly, that Sander Berge is a player of fine quality and vast potential, who is regularly touted as being worth £30-40m. By people with actual, genuine knowledge of the game at a professional level...not just some bloke with a computer keyboard and a colourful rhetoric.

Sandr is possibly exactly what you have said. But he's injured and hasn't played for months. And you reckon these managers, players and figureheads within the game (both past and present) will happily take the risk on a player out of the PL for months who played in a team of relegated deadbeats? You know, people with actual, genuine knowledge of the game at a professional level? How do you know this? Have you spoken to them? If you haven't, then you're no better than some bloke with a computer keyboard and a colourful rhetoric, are you?

But, alongside the arguments of several professional figures within the game, how about some similar transfer fees from recent transactions within the current market?

Partey - £45m what? You mean ex-Athletico Madrid Partey?
Watkins - £35m? Goalscoring Watkins, you mean?
Godfrey - £25m Is he not a centre back?
Fofana - £31m again, ex-St Eitienne
Fabio Silva - £36m brought in by NES as part of a package of Portuguese players shaped by the Benfica/Porto axis

It could easily be argued that only Partey justified that fee, as the others were all totally unproven at the top level, other than Godfrey having one season in the PL's worst defence that year.

But the rest are all prodigious of footballing legacy. Berge? Genk and Sheffield United? NOt getting all Top Trumps or owt, but really?

The fee is paid based on the opinions of EXPERTS with ACTUAL KNOWLEDGE and EXPERIENCE from within football.

And opinions on here are based on layman's observations, even yours. No one I see on here has much footballing pedigree at a high level. Opinions are like arseholes, and all that.

I've no interest in debating the issue with you, for the simple reason that I'd rather trust the opinions of actual football people, than some random bloke from South Yorkshire.

Um ... why are you posting and providing evidence then? And why use a caustic statement like "I've no interest in debating the issue with you"? Is your word final then? Are you next gonna end it with 'End of' like most blowhards?

And it seems to me that you've no interest in debating the issue with anyone, you just want to counter every statement with contrasting (usually dramatically phrased) arguments...whether that means u-turning on your original stance or not.

No. I debate the issue. If you can't debate, then don't debate.

So I'll leave ye to it

Great. Thanks for your contributions.

pommpey

 

[mancunianblade]

Norwich kept their squad and management team intact and planned for relegation from before their last promotion was confirmed. they copied the Burnley model and it served them well.

 

[Revolution]

United's midfield goals and assists output this season (stats from understat; I've ignored McGoldrick (63 mins in midfield) and Brewster (72 mins in midfield, apparently)):

View attachment 110204

Who's that at the top for goals and assists per 90 minutes? Would that me the much maligned Sander Berge? Even if you take away the penalty against Liverpool he'd still be second on the xG list despite playing around half the minutes of Norwood, Fleck and Lundstram.

I should point out that this is the crux of our failings this season - we're 30 games in and the sum total of statistical expected goals from our midfield is under 4 while the sum of expected assists only just sneaks past 7. That is woeful.

I think its fair to say that Berge is the tallest dwarf. The output of all those players is pathetic.