Opportunity to change the system/formation

[robbiez666]

Let's face it, it's likely that overlapping CBs are a thing of the past. I doubt JoC will be able to carry on as before post knee injury and Bash is visibly struggling to get up and back more and more. He'll be 33 next year and we haven't got adequate back-up for either.

Given we're definitely down now and without JOC or Egan for the foreseeable, maybe it's the perfect time for Chris to find a new was of playing? Try a few things and see how the players react. We've really got nothing to lose.

 

[GuangzhouBlade]

Let's face it, it's likely that overlapping CBs are a thing of the past. I doubt JoC will be able to carry on as before post knee injury and Bash is visibly struggling to get up and back more and more. He'll be 33 next year and we haven't got adequate back-up for either.

Given we're definitely down now and without JOC or Egan for the foreseeable, maybe it's the perfect time for Chris to find a new was of playing? Try a few things and see how the players react. We've really got nothing to lose.

3-5-2 might not be completely dead but now is a good opportunity for us to try something else. This whole season has meant "crowbarring" players into the system, now with Egan potentially out lets explore other options. Having a left hand side of Osborn, Ampadu and an unfit Stevens tonight really showed. For me Osborn needs to be playing at LB/LWB. And if Norwood isn't spraying passes then he brings little else so lets try with a midfield two or dropping Didsy back to accommodate a two up front.

 

[stringjunior]

Let's face it, it's likely that overlapping CBs are a thing of the past. I doubt JoC will be able to carry on as before post knee injury and Bash is visibly struggling to get up and back more and more. He'll be 33 next year and we haven't got adequate back-up for either.

Given we're definitely down now and without JOC or Egan for the foreseeable, maybe it's the perfect time for Chris to find a new was of playing? Try a few things and see how the players react. We've really got nothing to lose.

Yup. Now's the time to try stuff ahead of next season

 

[DeanLearner'sCat]

People keep focussing on the system (when we lose) but it doesn't matter what system you play if you gift the opposition goals and can't defend a set piece.

 

[Toronto Blade]

We are on the small side for set pieces, a big miss with JOC usually defending his side so well in the air.
With McBurnie who is excellent at defending headers in our box waiting on the sideline to come on. It fell on Osborn and Ampadu to try and they did to out jump Wham's giant for his goal winning header there was only going to be one winner in that duel.

 

[Swannyblade]

I’d be up for trying a new system to give us a plan B, but unfortunately we don’t have the players to do it.
We haven’t got any wingers to provide width across midfield and we haven’t got quality centre backs who can play in a back four.
We can’t even change our shape effectively during a game when it’s gone tits up.
We’ll stick with the same until the summer because we simply don’t have the option of changing it.

 

[jono_t2000]

I’d be up for trying a new system to give us a plan B, but unfortunately we don’t have the players to do it.

Seen a lot of people saying this, but i dont get it...

we've literally shoe-horned players out of position all season to ensure we stick with plan A.

I think we have the players to play a 4-5-1 or 4-3-3 quite comfortably..

 

[Swannyblade]

Seen a lot of people saying this, but i dont get it...

we've literally shoe-horned players out of position all season to ensure we stick with plan A.

I think we have the players to play a 4-5-1 or 4-3-3 quite comfortably..

Give me two premier league quality centre backs from our squad who can play in a back four and I’ll believe you

 

[Isaw Joeshaw]

Give me two premier league quality centre backs from our squad who can play in a back four and I’ll believe you

Give me two Premier League quality players in our squad who can operate as both full backs and wingers during the same match ,and be equally successful at both ends of the pitch , and I’ll believe that the system which has so manifestly failed us this year is still the way to go .

 

[dc_blade]

People keep focussing on the system (when we lose) but it doesn't matter what system you play if you gift the opposition goals and can't defend a set piece.

Very fair point. At the same time, conceding the odd sloppy goal wouldn’t be such a disaster if we could score. Or shoot. Or get a cross in. Or really build an attack of any kind. And that’s the system.

 

[Swannyblade]

Give me two Premier League quality players in our squad who can operate as both full backs and wingers during the same match ,and be equally successful at both ends of the pitch , and I’ll believe that the system which has so manifestly failed us this year is still the way to go .

Fair point. However I think the squad of players available to Wilder (self inflicted, no excuses) is even less equipped for a switch to a back four than it is for the failing back five. I fear that the indignity of losing by these “fine margins” could be replaced by the greater humiliation of getting dicked by 6 or 7 each week.
Confidence is fragile and like it or not, we’ll be relying on most of these players for next season’s campaign. Best not to destroy them completely or worse risk returning to the toxic atmosphere around Xmas time and the doubts over Wilder’s future.
I’d love us to have a viable plan B and a different system to employ when needed, but we’ve hamstrung ourselves in the transfer market. We didn’t even have a viable midfield option on the bench tonight. Piss poor.

 

[Rudders]

What are we actually good at as a team/squad?
Does Wilder actually know?
Its not defending which was a strength last year.
Its not goalkeeping which was a strength last year.
Its not attacking as we create very little and finish even less
its not pace or counter attacking
its not physical and aerial strength
its not flair and dribbling
Its not set pieces
it seems to be neat triangular interchanges on the wings and channels, but we don't have any wingers! What a weird tactic for the group of players that you have!
There is no point playing 'a system' with most of the key players out injured.
The only fairly certain performers are at the moment:
GK - Rammers. (He hasn't been great but The back up being Wes Foderingham who is probably mid League 1 standard)
RB - Bogle. Good going forward but loose defensively. Or play Baldock who is better defensively but offers virtually nil going forward and is a yellow card magnet.
RCB - Bash, but form dipped recently and also getting old
CAM/CF - Didz, creative and works hard but misses a lot of chances. But is ageing and can't start every game.
So even our 3/4 best/most certain players have major doubts as to their role/position/longevity. And these 4 are probably only average to poor PL quality anyway.

Every other position is up for grabs due to injury or loss of form or could realistically be improved. We are nowhere and Wilder has no idea where to go with this group. We need to rebuild in almost every position. Its a colossal FU.
The job is huge rebuilding this side to PL standard, I don't think Wilder realises this. The only thing in his favour is that he has bought some young players who may mature into it. With the injuries/loss of form we have he needs at least 10 to 15 players in if we are to compete at this level again.
I'm tempted to let someone else have a go who could make a better job of it.

 

[DeanLearner'sCat]

At the same time, conceding the odd sloppy goal wouldn’t be such a disaster if we could score. Or shoot. Or get a cross in. Or really build an attack of any kind. And that’s the system.

I can't agree with this. We lack attacking quality/creativity. That's a personnel issue more than a system issue. People not shooting or getting in a cross when in good positions is about decision making really or confidence, rather than playing 3-5-2, 4-4-2, whatever. Even so, we created chances last night, we just didn't take them. That's been the case in many games.

 

[AWetFlannel]

Seen a lot of people saying this, but i dont get it...

we've literally shoe-horned players out of position all season to ensure we stick with plan A.

I think we have the players to play a 4-5-1 or 4-3-3 quite comfortably..

We don't have a single wide midfielder or winger in the squad. We have 5 strikers. Clearly playing one up top and wingers doesn't suit the squad.

 

[AWetFlannel]

Give me two Premier League quality players in our squad who can operate as both full backs and wingers during the same match ,and be equally successful at both ends of the pitch , and I’ll believe that the system which has so manifestly failed us this year is still the way to go .

Enda Stevens and George Baldock, I've seen em do it mate, in the division we are in now and the one where we're going.

 

[bongleblade]

We don't have a single wide midfielder or winger in the squad. We have 5 strikers. Clearly playing one up top and wingers doesn't suit the squad.

Burke and McBurnie are both decent wingers, i like the idea as well, they both have great physical attributes so they wouldnt be your typical wingers.

I personally think we should play 5-2-3 for the rest of the season with Basham in the middle - so in attacking we are 4-3-3 with Didz in the centre as false 9, defence we have a back 5

 

[AWetFlannel]

Burke and McBurnie are both decent wingers, i like the idea as well, they both have great physical attributes so they wouldnt be your typical wingers

I suppose Burke is as much of a winger as he is a striker. Can't say I agree that Mcburnie is.

Either way, playing players slightly out of position isn't obviously the way to go.

 

[Working Class Hero]

I think the majority of fans just want to see a minor change and go back to the old formation that was so good to watch, so it doesn't need to be a massive overhaul.

Long term the worrying thing is that formation relied on 3 pretty unique parts: Duffy in the CAM role which many have tried to replicate but come nowhere near him, and two overlapping centre backs. It's highly likely that none of those three will be here soon, and I'm not sure it can ever work with different personnel. All three were one-offs.

 

[ancientblade]

I suppose Burke is as much of a winger as he is a striker. Can't say I agree that Mcburnie is.

Either way, playing players slightly out of position isn't obviously the way to go.

i havent got a clue what mcburnie is

 

[Fulwood Blade]

The 3412 was changed a week after we got promoted. Wilder was interviewed a lot and he made no secret in any interview of tweaking the system so that we didn't get "picked off" as he called it.

Nothing wrong with that at all - it worked in the first season, but we all could see where it could go wrong.

The change of formation (that many appeared to be calling for) was tried 2nd game of this season against Burnley in the League cup - it was the diamond - something even JOC let slip in an interview a month before COVID. It was, if fans care to remember, was the diamond with Berge at the base of it. It seems obvious to some that was the reason Berge was brought in to play that position and dictate play.

This diamond didn't last very long, but perhaps with a few better players that once again CW was telling as ages ago as to what was needed, it may very well have worked. It's something we'll never know now.

So for me - CWAK have wanted a changed for a while - have planned a changed - tried to implement it, but along with COVID and injuries that whole project has fallen apart or flat on it's face as we therefore get dumped out of the only league that matters in England.

My opinion is we need a change - but planned properly and implemented during the summer. The old way has gone now - CWAK need to reinvent.

Will it be a return to 3412? For me, that answer should be no. It was invented to suit what we had in L1 - we are now starting with a stronger club, better finances (despite relegation) and a club capable of bouncing straight back as long as the club keeps it's nerve and persuades CW not to go on an emotional trip due to relegation and want to move on. 3412 depends on a few key players - Bash for one ,and Duffy in the hole. Duffy was a big miss - there have been very few players that can play between the lines like Duffy did.

Wilder's apparent favoured formation was always 4 at the back with full backs that push on - Liverpool and Man City being the best exponents of this - perhaps we need to start with a complete rethink.

So........stay the same, or move on to something different?

Whatever we do - it needs (for me) to be with CW at the helm next season................and i'll mention the debacle with Bryan Robson as the reason to keep CW at the club - the catalyst for our eventual demise in L1.

UTB.

PS: We played some pretty triangles last night v West Ham - they just waited for an opportunity and picked us off - which is what 352 was supposed to prevent - the philosophy is dead unless you can keep 2 players for the specialist positions that 352 depends on - we now have to do it differently and start with something else.

 

[dc_blade]

I can't agree with this. We lack attacking quality/creativity. That's a personnel issue more than a system issue. People not shooting or getting in a cross when in good positions is about decision making really or confidence, rather than playing 3-5-2, 4-4-2, whatever. Even so, we created chances last night, we just didn't take them. That's been the case in many games.

Admittedly night wasn’t as bad in an attacking sense as some other games this season and last. And I definitely agree with you that we lack creativity and quality. But I also think the formation tends to leave the forwards isolated at times and the style of play has become ineffective and predictable. I hope Wilder rethinks a few things before we go again next season.

 

[PokerBlade]

People keep focussing on the system (when we lose) but it doesn't matter what system you play if you gift the opposition goals and can't defend a set piece.

So much this. Your ball-playing centre-midfielder turns and passes it to the opposition at the half-way line. Then you lose another header at a corner. Then with your depleted defence you don't push out quick enough to block a shot on the edge of the area.

In what part of that does the formation matter? Almost every game involves us starting 1-0 down because of a big error. Then teams are happy to play possession or on the counter and, at this level, they do it very well.

I'd love to come on here and discuss formations and tactics but we don't do the basics well enough for it to even matter.

 

[Houston_Blade]

Basham isn't struggling to get up and down, he's struggling to get up and then get back when one of our midfielders give the ball to one of their players while he's up the attacking end of the pitch. It doesn't matter whether you're 18 or 34, you'd struggle.

 

[GymClassHero]

Let's face it, it's likely that overlapping CBs are a thing of the past. I doubt JoC will be able to carry on as before post knee injury and Bash is visibly struggling to get up and back more and more. He'll be 33 next year and we haven't got adequate back-up for either.

Given we're definitely down now and without JOC or Egan for the foreseeable, maybe it's the perfect time for Chris to find a new was of playing? Try a few things and see how the players react. We've really got nothing to lose.

Don't really buy into this theory of knee injuries changing players permanently... Medical science is so sophisticated now he will be back to his previous best.

 

[Yoonited]

i havent got a clue what mcburnie is

Does McBurnie know what he is

 

[Tynemouth Blade]

and Bash is visibly struggling to get up and back more and more

Are you joking???
Did you not see the speed he was going to give the Penalty away last night?
It was like a cartoon character!