Vs S'oton - their gegenpressing

[Bergen Blade]

Another thing that many have commented on vs Southampton is that we couldn't seem to pass the ball at all. Was it 9 passes the first 15 minutes? A new record low for the first half?

So what happened when we got the ball, why couldn't we just control the ball and find a teammate?


Factor one - we couldn't get close to them. This meant that they kept the ball until they tried to attack us and finished. Then goal kick.

Factor two - long balls up to McBurnie didn't work. He won a couple, but they didn't fall to a United player. Sharp also struggled to hold the ball up against their strong centre halves.

Factor three - I think Southampton's gegenpressing was excellent. A side point here is that they were so comfortable at the back that they often had many players pushed up into our half. We had no pace up front to trouble them either. On the rare occasions that they lost possession and a ball fell to one of our players, they were all over us like hyenas, often in groups. When they pressed us so well we either risked losing it dangerously or had to give it away.

Some examples:


Stevens gets the ball, ends up in a wrestling match with Ward-Prowse. We got a free kick.



Sharp is back helping out, Fleck gets the ball and is immediately put under pressure


Ball falls to Fleck, but he can only poke it on as two players are circling around him, S'oton get the ball back.



We try to break with McBurnie, but three players are surrounding him, including their left back and they stop us.



McBurnie is again back helping, but Vestergaard is all over him with other S'oton players also helping and they can start a new attack.


Again we get the ball with Baldock. He hesitates, probably can't see any passing options up the pitch, and is blocked.


There are other factors like confidence, composure and lack of rhythm too. But in short we just couldn't get any sort of passing going. It helped a bit second half when we changed the formation, but only for a while and new problems arose as well.

 

[Yogi]

Another thing that many have commented on vs Southampton is that we couldn't seem to pass the ball at all. Was it 9 passes the first 15 minutes? A new record low for the first half?

So what happened when we got the ball, why couldn't we just control the ball and find a teammate?


Factor one - we couldn't get close to them. This meant that they kept the ball until they tried to attack us and finished. Then goal kick.

Factor two - long balls up to McBurnie didn't work. He won a couple, but they didn't fall to a United player. Sharp also struggled to hold the ball up against their strong centre halves.

Factor three - I think Southampton's gegenpressing was excellent. A side point here is that they were so comfortable at the back that they often had many players pushed up into our half. We had no pace up front to trouble them either. On the rare occasions that they lost possession and a ball fell to one of our players, they were all over us like hyenas, often in groups. When they pressed us so well we either risked losing it dangerously or had to give it away.

Some examples:

View attachment 100528
Stevens gets the ball, ends up in a wrestling match with Ward-Prowse. We got a free kick.


View attachment 100529
Sharp is back helping out, Fleck gets the ball and is immediately put under pressure

View attachment 100530
Ball falls to Fleck, but he can only poke it on as two players are circling around him, S'oton get the ball back.


View attachment 100531
We try to break with McBurnie, but three players are surrounding him, including their left back and they stop us.


View attachment 100532
McBurnie is again back helping, but Vestergaard is all over him with other S'oton players also helping and they can start a new attack.

View attachment 100533
Again we get the ball with Baldock. He hesitates, probably can't see any passing options up the pitch, and is blocked.


There are other factors like confidence, composure and lack of rhythm too. But in short we just couldn't get any sort of passing going. It helped a bit second half when we changed the formation, but only for a while and new problems arose as well.

They’re a superbly coached side and the next season or two will be the peak of the project under the current manager at which point he’s likely to get a top European job.

 

[finlaytheblade]

Another thing that many have commented on vs Southampton is that we couldn't seem to pass the ball at all. Was it 9 passes the first 15 minutes? A new record low for the first half?

So what happened when we got the ball, why couldn't we just control the ball and find a teammate?


Factor one - we couldn't get close to them. This meant that they kept the ball until they tried to attack us and finished. Then goal kick.

Factor two - long balls up to McBurnie didn't work. He won a couple, but they didn't fall to a United player. Sharp also struggled to hold the ball up against their strong centre halves.

Factor three - I think Southampton's gegenpressing was excellent. A side point here is that they were so comfortable at the back that they often had many players pushed up into our half. We had no pace up front to trouble them either. On the rare occasions that they lost possession and a ball fell to one of our players, they were all over us like hyenas, often in groups. When they pressed us so well we either risked losing it dangerously or had to give it away.

Some examples:

View attachment 100528
Stevens gets the ball, ends up in a wrestling match with Ward-Prowse. We got a free kick.


View attachment 100529
Sharp is back helping out, Fleck gets the ball and is immediately put under pressure

View attachment 100530
Ball falls to Fleck, but he can only poke it on as two players are circling around him, S'oton get the ball back.


View attachment 100531
We try to break with McBurnie, but three players are surrounding him, including their left back and they stop us.


View attachment 100532
McBurnie is again back helping, but Vestergaard is all over him with other S'oton players also helping and they can start a new attack.

View attachment 100533
Again we get the ball with Baldock. He hesitates, probably can't see any passing options up the pitch, and is blocked.


There are other factors like confidence, composure and lack of rhythm too. But in short we just couldn't get any sort of passing going. It helped a bit second half when we changed the formation, but only for a while and new problems arose as well.

Considering the amount of ball and pressure Soton had they didnt create a lot of chances ( caught offside a number of times)really then that 1st half hour wasnt as bad as it looked at the time,ended up shooting ourselves in the foot again which really is the reason we are where we are

 

[Rodley]

They’re a superbly coached side and the next season or two will be the peak of the project under the current manager at which point he’s likely to get a top European job.

Agree, a top manager IMHO.

 

[Mojo]

Southampton are everything we are not. Quick, all want the ball, good movement, incisive passing, quick decision making, fast technical attacking players. Someone like Redmond who can't even get in their team would be our best player.

 

[Trafford]

Another thing that many have commented on vs Southampton is that we couldn't seem to pass the ball at all. Was it 9 passes the first 15 minutes? A new record low for the first half?

So what happened when we got the ball, why couldn't we just control the ball and find a teammate?


Factor one - we couldn't get close to them. This meant that they kept the ball until they tried to attack us and finished. Then goal kick.

Factor two - long balls up to McBurnie didn't work. He won a couple, but they didn't fall to a United player. Sharp also struggled to hold the ball up against their strong centre halves.

Factor three - I think Southampton's gegenpressing was excellent. A side point here is that they were so comfortable at the back that they often had many players pushed up into our half. We had no pace up front to trouble them either. On the rare occasions that they lost possession and a ball fell to one of our players, they were all over us like hyenas, often in groups. When they pressed us so well we either risked losing it dangerously or had to give it away.

Some examples:

View attachment 100528
Stevens gets the ball, ends up in a wrestling match with Ward-Prowse. We got a free kick.


View attachment 100529
Sharp is back helping out, Fleck gets the ball and is immediately put under pressure

View attachment 100530
Ball falls to Fleck, but he can only poke it on as two players are circling around him, S'oton get the ball back.


View attachment 100531
We try to break with McBurnie, but three players are surrounding him, including their left back and they stop us.


View attachment 100532
McBurnie is again back helping, but Vestergaard is all over him with other S'oton players also helping and they can start a new attack.

View attachment 100533
Again we get the ball with Baldock. He hesitates, probably can't see any passing options up the pitch, and is blocked.


There are other factors like confidence, composure and lack of rhythm too. But in short we just couldn't get any sort of passing going. It helped a bit second half when we changed the formation, but only for a while and new problems arose as well.

In many of those pictures we had 7 men behind the ball, most of whom weren’t marking anybody, it’s no wonder that there wasn’t an outlet and their defenders could push the forwards back into our own half. I’m convinced that having fewer at the back would help both our defending (they would all know who to mark, rather than thinking that someone else would pick them up) and our attacking (more players available to receive the ball).

 

[Carlton Blade]

Another thing that many have commented on vs Southampton is that we couldn't seem to pass the ball at all. Was it 9 passes the first 15 minutes? A new record low for the first half?

So what happened when we got the ball, why couldn't we just control the ball and find a teammate?


Factor one - we couldn't get close to them. This meant that they kept the ball until they tried to attack us and finished. Then goal kick.

Factor two - long balls up to McBurnie didn't work. He won a couple, but they didn't fall to a United player. Sharp also struggled to hold the ball up against their strong centre halves.

Factor three - I think Southampton's gegenpressing was excellent. A side point here is that they were so comfortable at the back that they often had many players pushed up into our half. We had no pace up front to trouble them either. On the rare occasions that they lost possession and a ball fell to one of our players, they were all over us like hyenas, often in groups. When they pressed us so well we either risked losing it dangerously or had to give it away.

Some examples:

View attachment 100528
Stevens gets the ball, ends up in a wrestling match with Ward-Prowse. We got a free kick.


View attachment 100529
Sharp is back helping out, Fleck gets the ball and is immediately put under pressure

View attachment 100530
Ball falls to Fleck, but he can only poke it on as two players are circling around him, S'oton get the ball back.


View attachment 100531
We try to break with McBurnie, but three players are surrounding him, including their left back and they stop us.


View attachment 100532
McBurnie is again back helping, but Vestergaard is all over him with other S'oton players also helping and they can start a new attack.

View attachment 100533
Again we get the ball with Baldock. He hesitates, probably can't see any passing options up the pitch, and is blocked.


There are other factors like confidence, composure and lack of rhythm too. But in short we just couldn't get any sort of passing going. It helped a bit second half when we changed the formation, but only for a while and new problems arose as well.

If we didn't specifically bring Burke in for games like this then I am at a loss for why he is at the club

 

[coaxingstar71]

Wasn't we them last season.... ah last season.... memories.

 

[blades14]

If we didn't specifically bring Burke in for games like this then I am at a loss for why he is at the club

We've looked better as an attacking side with Burke playing. People may not agree but he's done more this season than any other of our strikers and midfielders

 

[Rodders]

If we didn't specifically bring Burke in for games like this then I am at a loss for why he is at the club

We didn't factor in just how shit he was?

 

[Geordie Blade]

If we didn't specifically bring Burke in for games like this then I am at a loss for why he is at the club

Same for Rodwell. I suppose when we signed him, Wilder was thinking "He's worth having in squad just for the unlikely event that everything goes to shit and we are desperate". The midfield has been as bad as could feasibly have been imagined yet he still doesn't appear. I'm not necessarily saying that Rodwell should play, just wondering what circumstances CWAK had in mind when he was signed (and re-signed).

 

[Carlton Blade]

We've looked better as an attacking side with Burke playing. People may not agree but he's done more this season than any other of our strikers and midfielders

He's a genuinely bad footballer for this level. But he gets us up the pitch. The front 2 on Sunday didn't work at a time when the rest of the team was still functioning. It was a truly bizarre selection

 

[Carlton Blade]

We didn't factor in just how shit he was?

He's pretty shit tbf

 

[Carlton Blade]

Same for Rodwell. I suppose when we signed him, Wilder was thinking "He's worth having in squad just for the unlikely event that everything goes to shit and we are desperate". The midfield has been as bad as could feasibly have been imagined yet he still doesn't appear. I'm not necessarily saying that Rodwell should play, just wondering what circumstances CWAK had in mind when he was signed (and re-signed).

I think Rodwell and Bogle ran away to the circus 6 weeks ago

 

[Yogi]

Wasn't we them last season.... ah last season.... memories.

We were but our group had topped out in terms of building a squad for a 4-6 year cycle based on age 4 for us because a lot of those players were in their prime/older when they came in that Southampton group is into year 2 of their project they’ll be at the peak of their powers as a group for the next 24 months and then will have to phase out the older players in that group and will struggle to keep hold of the boss.

 

[blades14]

He's a genuinely bad footballer for this level. But he gets us up the pitch. The front 2 on Sunday didn't work at a time when the rest of the team was still functioning. It was a truly bizarre selection

He's not bad. he's just not a striker, could he be trained? reminds me of a young adama traore. all speed no brain. however look like hes turned out. i think with burke he nees to play regularly in a position hes comfortable. He could affect the team at any position either being a ST, CAM or RCM. He improves the team when he plays

 

[BushBlade]

Same for Rodwell. I suppose when we signed him, Wilder was thinking "He's worth having in squad just for the unlikely event that everything goes to shit and we are desperate". The midfield has been as bad as could feasibly have been imagined yet he still doesn't appear. I'm not necessarily saying that Rodwell should play, just wondering what circumstances CWAK had in mind when he was signed (and re-signed).

I’d guess the circumstances would be Basham getting injured.

 

[Yogi]

Same for Rodwell. I suppose when we signed him, Wilder was thinking "He's worth having in squad just for the unlikely event that everything goes to shit and we are desperate". The midfield has been as bad as could feasibly have been imagined yet he still doesn't appear. I'm not necessarily saying that Rodwell should play, just wondering what circumstances CWAK had in mind when he was signed (and re-signed).

I think it’s becoming clear that Rodwell was a Morrison style punt/reclamation project of could we rehab back to the player he was at Everton that clearly hasn’t happened. In terms of why did we renew him and still he hasn’t played I think it’s down to a few factors first the budget was allocated elsewhere so we didn’t want to spend more money on bringing in a utility type player. Second I’d assume he’s doing enough in training to where we still rate him higher than the youngsters in the U23’s ie the we think the youngsters aren’t at a stage in their development where in a crisis we’d be comfortable with them getting game time in that position. Thirdly Basham has this far stayed injured and suspension free touch wood keep everything crossed therefore an opening at that RCB slot hasn’t opened up and if he’s going to be serviceable anywhere now it’s probably there.

 

[8lade]

The front 2 on Sunday didn't work at a time when the rest of the team was still functioning. It was a truly bizarre selection

Looked the other way round to me, the team wasn't functioning and both McBurnie and Sharp came back and won the ball in the first 30 minutes and as sad as that sounds that was about as good as it got for United. Ramsdale just hoying the ball upfield didn't help at all but that would have been under orders. We would've done better to play the ball out and if need be the defender playing a long ball from defence, which would've been more accurate.

 

[Geordie Blade]

I think it’s becoming clear that Rodwell was a Morrison style punt/reclamation project of could we rehab back to the player he was at Everton that clearly hasn’t happened. In terms of why did we renew him and still he hasn’t played I think it’s down to a few factors first the budget was allocated elsewhere so we didn’t want to spend more money on bringing in a utility type player. Second I’d assume he’s doing enough in training to where we still rate him higher than the youngsters in the U23’s ie the we think the youngsters aren’t at a stage in their development where in a crisis we’d be comfortable with them getting game time in that position. Thirdly Basham has this far stayed injured and suspension free touch wood keep everything crossed therefore an opening at that RCB slot hasn’t opened up and if he’s going to be serviceable anywhere now it’s probably there.

Point 1: I'm still not sure why we need a utility player of that ilk. We've had plenty of injuries in different positions, and Rodwell hasn't been near the team.
Point 2: You say 'in a crisis'. Are we not in a crisis now?
Point 3: Wouldn't Ampadu fit that role?

I totally get (and support) the gamble side of it, but that doesn't explain why his contract was extended.

 

[Carlton Blade]

He's not bad. he's just not a striker, could he be trained? reminds me of a young adama traore. all speed no brain. however look like hes turned out. i think with burke he nees to play regularly in a position hes comfortable. He could affect the team at any position either being a ST, CAM or RCM. He improves the team when he plays

We'll have to disagree on his quality. He's been at multiple top level teams now and his technical ability is alarmingly low. Top 1% level speed and strength though

 

[Carlton Blade]

Looked the other way round to me, the team wasn't functioning and both McBurnie and Sharp came back and won the ball in the first 30 minutes and as sad as that sounds that was about as good as it got for United. Ramsdale just hoying the ball upfield didn't help at all but that would have been under orders. We would've done better to play the ball out and if need be the defender playing a long ball from defence, which would've been more accurate.

Not sure how that would have made much of a difference though? The defenders would have been rushing due to being pressed so much. And even if McBurnie wins a header, then what?

 

[AdamSufc1997]

They’re a superbly coached side and the next season or two will be the peak of the project under the current manager at which point he’s likely to get a top European job.

I thought we were i guess not

 

[8lade]

Playing off the floor will result in a more accurate pass than out of hands, as would playing it shorter, if need be there's always Ramsdale to play it back to. It would've slowed the game down and we wouldn't have been under the cosh from start to goal. As it was Southampton played football till the ball went out then we gave it back to them within seconds, at least rolling the ball out even if it went back to Ramsdale would give some time where we had control.

 

[Yogi]

Point 1: I'm still not sure why we need a utility player of that ilk. We've had plenty of injuries in different positions, and Rodwell hasn't been near the team.
Point 2: You say 'in a crisis'. Are we not in a crisis now?
Point 3: Wouldn't Ampadu fit that role?

I totally get (and support) the gamble side of it, but that doesn't explain why his contract was extended.

I’d say that our particular interest in having a utility player of that ilk is purely in an attempt to replicate Basham his skill set is so hard to find in an out and out centreback that finding any replacement for him will be extremely difficult. Therefore us taking as many different approaches to solve that problem is sensible imo basically keep throwing darts at the board until one hits. Therefore I wouldn’t be against having a revolving door of utility players every season or two to see if one clicks whilst also grooming younger players into the role aswell.

Second I meant more a crisis in terms of availability rather than form but equally Bashams form has been fairly consistent and he’s probably one of the only players guaranteed to be on the team sheet based on performances.

third ampadu would and indeed does fit that role but based on how wilder has treat Norwood going into the season it wouldn’t surprise me if going into the season ampadu wasn’t second choice in the depth chart at 3 positions LCB,RCB and CDM. Therefore any given week due to injury suspension or losss of form he could and is playing any of the other two positions so having another body to cover RCB was essential.

I’m by no means saying extending Rodwell was ideal and if we’d had the money I believe we’d have identified and recruited a long term successor to bash but given the restrictions we faced this summer his extension was at least logically.

 

[Yogi]

I thought we were i guess not

I’ve addressed it elsewhere but that core of Southampton players is now 12-18 months on from being fully assembled over the next two years they should reach the peak of their cycle making additions here and there before some players drop off due to age others are sold for profit and the coach probably moves on. We are at the end of one cycle and the beginning of another we’ve recruited a lot of players in a short amount of time and our older senior pros are dropping off performances were always going to drop off (not necessarily to this level) as the squad took time to stabilise.

 

[Stevo]

Ramsdale
baldock. Bash. Egan. Stevens
bogle. Berge. Fleck. Burke
Moose. Brewdog

time to go 44 fucking 2

 

[bakeblade]

If we didn't specifically bring Burke in for games like this then I am at a loss for why he is at the club

Exactly with Burke on the pitch I don't think their central defenders would have been so keen to come and play in our half. They would have been too wary of his pace.

 

[Mumbo]

Looked the other way round to me, the team wasn't functioning and both McBurnie and Sharp came back and won the ball in the first 30 minutes and as sad as that sounds that was about as good as it got for United. Ramsdale just hoying the ball upfield didn't help at all but that would have been under orders. We would've done better to play the ball out and if need be the defender playing a long ball from defence, which would've been more accurate.

The whole team is like a bad jigsaw at the minute but on too many occasions Ramsdale has set up opponents attacks with sloppy punts forward instantly putting us under pressure again however his distribution and his decision making is just part of our problem.
If Mcburnie is out because of his stupid dive we might just stop hoofing it forward.

 

[blades14]

We'll have to disagree on his quality. He's been at multiple top level teams now and his technical ability is alarmingly low. Top 1% level speed and strength though

I think he's been to multiple teams as all of the teams include us because teams dont know what postion he actually plays so he never gets a consistent run of games