Our "Premiership" defence!

[Paddys Cough]

After conceding another 3 goals this weekend, it got me thinking where are we going wrong. The defenders are all capable individuals so why are we leaking goals consistently. Then it got me thinking about the play-off season defence, possibly the best unit we've had whilst i've been watching them. But where are they now, all still playing in the same league even though we though none would have a problem stepping up. I'm not saying the current players are the same calibre as them but Speed needs to concentrate on settling them together and working as a one because we haven't got the fire power to go out with the Keegan attitude of "however many they score, we have to score one more".

 

[SotonBlade]

I would say that the fact the defence hasn't had the same personnel for the last 5 or so games, like last year, will have a lot to do with it.

 

[SteelCity Blade]

I dont understand why some people have such a problem with the defence. They havent been rock solid and I'm not arguing they have.....but before Saturday I checked the league table and we had conceded 12 goals (ok not brilliant) but if you looked at everyone around us they had all conceded 19's 20's 21's etc.

The problem is not at the back. The problem is in the final third and the fact that we're not scoring enough or creating chances. If you fail to make things happen up top then the ball will keep coming back and put the defence under constant pressure. Any defence will crack if we cant keep the ball in the attacking third.....its the simple mechanics of the game and the problem is obvious.

I realise we scored 3 on Saturday which is all very nice but United had about 4 decent chances and fortunately took all 3 because we were firing on the day. On other days we'll need more than 3 or 4 chances.

 

[Houso]

Get Blackwell back in to coach the defence :clap:

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

The problem SCB is all over the pitch. Most of the current team aren't comfortable with the ball at their feet. They panic if they receive the ball if there is an opponent within 10 yards of them.
Britton is the only one who actually wants the ball in these circumstances. Our "wide" men can't deliver a decent ball into the area and we blame our mis-firing forwards regardless of who they are.

Hopefully something will come out of the meetings this weekend and some funding will be made available. However with the wage bill already loaded up we'll either need to move people out or hope McCabe agrees to spend beyond our means in the short term to cover it.
From what I understand there is at least two deals done but on hold until the wage issue is resolved but without movement by our board they won't be happening.
Personally I don't know which way to jump on this, I don't want us spending beyond our means but you can't expect a new manager to put his mark down with players which he didn't sign nor rate.

This week should be interesting nonetheless.

 

[SteelCity Blade]

The problem SCB is all over the pitch. Most of the current team aren't comfortable with the ball at their feet. They panic if they receive the ball if there is an opponent within 10 yards of them.
Britton is the only one who actually wants the ball in these circumstances. Our "wide" men can't deliver a decent ball into the area and we blame our mis-firing forwards regardless of who they are.

Hopefully something will come out of the meetings this weekend and some funding will be made available. However with the wage bill already loaded up we'll either need to move people out or hope McCabe agrees to spend beyond our means in the short term to cover it.
From what I understand there is at least two deals done but on hold until the wage issue is resolved but without movement by our board they won't be happening.
Personally I don't know which way to jump on this, I don't want us spending beyond our means but you can't expect a new manager to put his mark down with players which he didn't sign nor rate.

This week should be interesting nonetheless.

As a famous cockney used to say Bob "he who dares wins."

Its time to root through the pockets because the current playing staff haven't a prayer of doing anything more than avoiding trouble. If the club wants to give Speed half a fighting chance then they're going to have to stretch the budget, simple as that.

If we want to do our usual thing and try to manage on next to nowt then fine, but no one should expect miracles from the manager under those circumstances. The problems are indeed all over the pitch Bob but the biggest ones are glaringly obvious and they're in midfield. We're not creating chances and as a result the defence is under constant bombardment.

We need Willo, Ward and Hendo back and we need to sign another 2 or 3. Without it, we're going to be fighting tooth and nail to stay up. I think the current side has enough heart and bottle, just not enough ability.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

Well I don't think Hendo will do anymore than Ched or Boggy unless the service improves.

While I'd agree about Willo, we are expecting him to make quite a recovery and get back to the same level, this might be a little unfair.
If he can get back to these levels then great, him and Britton plus one more could be the sort of midfield we need to be looking at. But we still need a couple of wide players who can deliver quality into the box. Interestingly Lawton spent all last week playing right midfield in training but from the third goal he needs to stay awake when we are defending.

With the original question I don't think with Bartley in the back four there is as much cause for concern. Certainly the third goal was due to the midfield switching off but Simmo is flapping and that doesn't instil confidence in an ever changing back four.

 

[SteelCity Blade]

Well I don't think Hendo will do anymore than Ched or Boggy unless the service improves.

While I'd agree about Willo, we are expecting him to make quite a recovery and get back to the same level, this might be a little unfair.
If he can get back to these levels then great, him and Britton plus one more could be the sort of midfield we need to be looking at. But we still need a couple of wide players who can deliver quality into the box. Interestingly Lawton spent all last week playing right midfield in training but from the third goal he needs to stay awake when we are defending.

With the original question I don't think with Bartley in the back four there is as much cause for concern. Certainly the third goal was due to the midfield switching off but Simmo is flapping and that doesn't instil confidence in an ever changing back four.

Agree about Simmo and Bartley. I was pleased with Lowton's contribution Saturday as well as with the goal. He gave us a higher line in midfield and pushed on a bit which is what we need but as you say, a couple of players including Lowton switched off for their third. Thats part of the learning curve though.

I disagree about Hendo though, I think he will offer a lot more than Ched and Cresswell are, even playing the way we are. He has the strength and guile to create space or an opportunity when he is crowded out. The problem is refs will give a free kick every time his arms leave his waist. Boggy on the other hand impressed me Saturday. He was tireless and did a big job for the team.....he's earned his starting place now IMO and should keep it.

I would be tempted to go with Lowton in midfield again, perhaps starting. The lad has a lot of energy.....he can tackle and likes to get forward. I would be cautious about it though, as he's young and quite naive at times. Looks very promising though.

Just a special mention for Yeates. He was fantastic in a struggling side on Saturday. really pleased with his performance.

 

[Grecian2000]

I disagree about Hendo though, I think he will offer a lot more than Ched and Cresswell are, even playing the way we are. He has the strength and guile to create space or an opportunity when he is crowded out.

Is this the first time in history that Hendo and guile have been linked in one sentence?

 

[JohnDenver]

Is this the first time in history that Hendo and guile have been linked in one sentence?

Is 'guile' French for 'elbow'?

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

Just a special mention for Yeates. He was fantastic in a struggling side on Saturday. really pleased with his performance.

We'll agree to disagree on that comment. I didn't think he was fantastic, his delivery was consistently poor and he regularly left his full back exposed.

 

[Highbury_Blade]

Was described as 'Outstanding' in Football365's report.

 

[SteelCity Blade]

Is this the first time in history that Hendo and guile have been linked in one sentence?

Is 'guile' French for 'elbow'?

I respect other opinions chaps but that (as I consistently say) is incredibly unfair and does the guy a massive disservice. Yes we know he's a bit of a brute and gets himself in bother. I am also aware that he has a bad habit of wrestling with centre halves but thats better than watching Ched get bullied by them.

Hendo is labelled as a thug because of the Blackwell regime and how he was deployed. Speed could get a lot more out of him because for a big bloke he has a decent touch and is very good in the air. Ive always liked him and cant wait to see him back in the side. Unfortunately he will always give away free kicks because referees now have a perception of him which to be fair, isnt completely without just cause.....but thats what you'll get with him I'm afraid. Personally I love his spirit and think he's a decent player at this level. I have many friends who support other Championship clubs and they rate him highly. I always get the comment "That Henderson plays for you doesnt he? He's a good player.....big f***** as well."

You have to look at other aspects of his game.

---------- Post added at 11:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:06 AM ----------

We'll agree to disagree on that comment. I didn't think he was fantastic, his delivery was consistently poor and he regularly left his full back exposed.

I'm not sure many would agree Bob but I know where you're coming from about the delivery. I think that is a symptom of a side not playing well though. If players arent taking up good positions and Yeates is having to run his bollocks off then he's going to be nackered by the time he gets it and is unlikely to find anyone.

His movement and ability to go round their full backs gave us an outlet on Saturday and kept us in the game IMO.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

Was described as 'Outstanding' in Football365's report.

He had an eye catching 5 mins HB.

While acknowledging that I'm interesting in the previous 90 mins in which his delivery was consistently poor and our full back was left open time after time.
Unless I missed something and others who went can tell me about dangerous balls he played over the 90 minutes.

 

[JohnDenver]

Hendo is labelled as a thug because of the Blackwell regime and how he was deployed.

Hendo's propensity to get sent off is his own personal reponsibility. I do think he's a useful player and we need him fit, but I find his lack of discipline nigh-on unforgivable. It's not like he's Eric Cantona.

 

[SteelCity Blade]

He had an eye catching 5 mins HB.

While acknowledging that I'm interesting in the previous 90 mins in which his delivery was consistently poor and our full back was left open time after time.
Unless I missed something and others who went can tell me about dangerous balls he played over the 90 minutes.

About the full backs. Calve was left constantly exposed because he cant defend and De Laet was very naive at times (though I do rate him). This is the thing as well Bob.....we had people constantly complaining about how Blackwell made wide men track back and it made us negative. Now people are saying that our wide men are leaving the defenders exposed, who are defending badly themselves. We cant have it both ways.

 

[Fiery Blade]

The reason we're having problems is that our defence is not very good!
Simonsen is making an expensive error every other game
Calve is very lightweight and is not in the same street as Naughton or Walker
Jordan was a free transfer from Burnley - enough said
Nosworthy is a time bomb waiting to go off - he can be effective but he can also be embarrassing - he cannot string 90minutes together never mind 2-3 games
Morgan whilst the best of a bad bunch is limited - we were looking to ditch him when we got promotion yet he is still there!
Our defensive midfielders Ertl and Monty constantly give the ball away inviting sides to come straight back at us!
Face Facts guys- Blackwell has left us with a very very poor defensive unit!
AS for Henderson, the quicker we get the guy off our books the better!

 

[SteelCity Blade]

Hendo's propensity to get sent off is his own personal reponsibility. I do think he's a useful player and we need him fit, but I find his lack of discipline nigh-on unforgivable. It's not like he's Eric Cantona.

Eric Cantona!

Thats like comparing chalk and cheese. I dont think many people let alone footballers are like Eric Cantona! Yes Hendo does have a responsibility to keep himself on the pitch and needs to cut that out of his game but people talk about it like he does it every other game and he doesnt. He's been sent off a few times and I admit that needs to stop. But he has scored some good goals for us and has provided assists for others.

His contribution when he's on the pitch is undeniable IMO and those who cant see that cant see a lot of things.

 

[Grecian2000]

His contribution when he's on the pitch is undeniable IMO and those who cant see that cant see a lot of things.

Ahh, the old "If you can't see what I see you know nowt about football argument". Classic.

The comparison with Cantona (not mine but I can see where that poster was coming from) is that you can take a certain amount of indiscipline (which you certainly got with Cantona) but there has to be a huge upside to make up for it (as there was with Cantona). I suspect he is suggesting that the upside of Hendo is not worth the downside.

The bloke has a reputation with referees that he has earned over the years. He fouls constantly when the ball is banged up to him. Once a ref spots this he will give it every time. Now we don't constantly bang it long this may be less of a problem.
I think his reputation has increased whilst being out of the side.

 

[raul]

What makes you think you're better qualified than others to see these things Steel City?

 

[SteelCity Blade]

Ahh, the old "If you can't see what I see you know nowt about football argument". Classic.

No, its the old "his contribution is obvious and IMO you're failing to see it argument." The term "know nowt" didnt appear in my post. Your words.

The comparison with Cantona (not mine but I can see where that poster was coming from) is that you can take a certain amount of indiscipline (which you certainly got with Cantona) but there has to be a huge upside to make up for it (as there was with Cantona). I suspect he is suggesting that the upside of Hendo is not worth the downside.

But he's being compared to a world class forward or yester-year and we never expected him to be as good as that. Hendo's all round contribution just about makes up for his indiscretions IMHO.

The bloke has a reputation with referees that he has earned over the years. He fouls constantly when the ball is banged up to him. Once a ref spots this he will give it every time. Now we don't constantly bang it long this may be less of a problem.
I think his reputation has increased whilst being out of the side.

He fouls constantly? Again another exaggeration for me. He gives back what he gets from the centre half a lot of the time. 6 of one.....as they say. If he doesnt impose himself he will be dominated and the ref will give nothing in his favour anyway so what do you want him to do?

This is another problem with football at the moment. Everything that doesnt involve the use of a ball is seen to be a foul these days. Thats why we have fucking nancy prima-donnas, over zealous officiating and arguments about the game becoming a non-contact sport. Nat Lofthouse used to smash goalkeepers into the back of the net and have goals awarded. If we keep hammering players who put themselves about football will end up like fucking basketball eventually.

Nothing personal Grecian and you're completely entitled to your opinion but the reason players like Hendo are constantly berated for being over-aggressive is because of this (almost indoctrinated) ideal that football should be played "a certain way" - its all self-preservating bollocks from the top down.

 

[Kopped]

I would like to see Lowton behind Calve. Lowton's a more complete defender for me and no slouch. Calve is better going forward imo. If De Laet hasn't gone back, I'd prefer to see him in the middle instead of Ronny, giving Bartley that extra time to heal. If he has gone back (or to Leicester, I've heard) then I'd want Bartley in and Jordan at LB, or maybe put Taylor back in to kick Jordan up the ass.

That would make a defensive line-up of: Lowton, Morgan, De Laet/Bartley, Jordan.
Midfield of: Calve, Britton, Ertl, Yeates

and the return of Ward partnering Bogdanovic up front.

 

[Eskimo]

Now then before all this gets out of hand can we agree:
Henderson will have a role to play when he returns from injury - we are hardly winning ant balls in the air up fromt maybe he will be the answer - lets see.

Yeates was both good and bad on Saturday, there were times in the first half I never thought he'd ever get a good cross in. 2nd half was much better.

De Laet is a good player but not a left back. Calve is good going forward and weak when exposed at the back.

Overall I'm a bit worried about formation/tactics. I'm no expert on this but it seems to me the full backs are too often too exposed due to lack of cover from midfield e.g Watfords goal and three out of the 4 on Saturday came from gaps or mistakes on the left side. But I'm at a loss to understand, with our formation, who should have been covering.? One of the midfield trio Britton, Ertl Quinn or the wide player - eg Yates>>> Why not play 442. Please can someone explain?

 

[Grecian2000]

Nothing personal Grecian and you're completely entitled to your opinion but the reason players like Hendo are constantly berated for being over-aggressive is because of this (almost indoctrinated) ideal that football should be played "a certain way" - its all self-preservating bollocks from the top down.

I'd answer the "self-preservating bollocks" better if I knew what it meant. However in spite of this lack of knowledge on my part I will tackle the rest.
It has got sod all to do with how I, or anyone else, would like to see the game played. He is constantly pulled up by referees because he breaks the rules. They don't give a shiny shite how the game should be played as long as it's played within the rules, but a foul is a foul if you're playing like The Arse (who had a player sent of for a bad challenge at the week-end) or Wimbledon circa 1986.
Like I said before, if the ball isn't constantly being battered at him then he won't have to foul all the time so it could all be irrelevant anyway.

 

[Kopped]

Now then before all this gets out of hand can we agree:
Henderson will have a role to play when he returns from injury - we are hardly winning ant balls in the air up fromt maybe he will be the answer - lets see.

Yeates was both good and bad on Saturday, there were times in the first half I never thought he'd ever get a good cross in. 2nd half was much better.

De Laet is a good player but not a left back. Calve is good going forward and weak when exposed at the back.

Overall I'm a bit worried about formation/tactics. I'm no expert on this but it seems to me the full backs are too often too exposed due to lack of cover from midfield e.g Watfords goal and three out of the 4 on Saturday came from gaps or mistakes on the left side. But I'm at a loss to understand, with our formation, who should have been covering.? One of the midfield trio Britton, Ertl Quinn or the wide player - eg Yates>>> Why not play 442. Please can someone explain?

I can answer a couple of those.

Quinn was supposed to be covering. He just jogged back and did a lot of pointing.
Their first goal on Saturday was Simmo's fault. We all heard him shout for it and Ronny backed out as a result, The striker got there first. De Laet's "foul" was unfortunate tho. It was a case of lost footing that looked like a shove to the angle the Ref had. As for their third, Jordan was sucked inside by his marker and Quinn was supposed to have tracked back, he didn't leaving the Right Back/Winger clear. They didn't score a forth ;-)

Agreed, we are missing Henderson. I firmly believe a forward facing Henderson will get a hatful of goals and won't be bullied off the ball. It was the system KB used that got my goat with Henderson.

 

[alcoblade]

Our "wide" men can't deliver a decent ball into the area and we blame our mis-firing forwards regardless of who they are.

Never, in the field of professional football, has so much blind faith been placed in someone with such little ability, by so few…..

Your surname isn't Evans is it Bob?



UTB

 

[SteelCity Blade]

I'd answer the "self-preservating bollocks" better if I knew what it meant. However in spite of this lack of knowledge on my part I will tackle the rest.
It has got sod all to do with how I, or anyone else, would like to see the game played. He is constantly pulled up by referees because he breaks the rules. They don't give a shiny shite how the game should be played as long as it's played within the rules, but a foul is a foul if you're playing like The Arse (who had a player sent of for a bad challenge at the week-end) or Wimbledon circa 1986.
Like I said before, if the ball isn't constantly being battered at him then he won't have to foul all the time so it could all be irrelevant anyway.

We'll leave it at that I think

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

Never, in the field of professional football, has so much blind faith been placed in someone with such little ability, by so few…..

Your surname isn't Evans is it Bob?



UTB

It might be

 

[JohnDenver]

Eric Cantona!

Thats like comparing chalk and cheese. I dont think many people let alone footballers are like Eric Cantona! Yes Hendo does have a responsibility to keep himself on the pitch and needs to cut that out of his game but people talk about it like he does it every other game and he doesnt. He's been sent off a few times and I admit that needs to stop. But he has scored some good goals for us and has provided assists for others.

His contribution when he's on the pitch is undeniable IMO and those who cant see that cant see a lot of things.

I'm just saying it's easier to forgive a tempramental talent (Glynn Hodges if you prefer?), than a player like Hendo. He just plays the game foolishly.

 

[Ollessendro]

The reason we're having problems is that our defence is not very good!
Simonsen is making an expensive error every other game
Calve is very lightweight and is not in the same street as Naughton or Walker
Jordan was a free transfer from Burnley - enough said
Nosworthy is a time bomb waiting to go off - he can be effective but he can also be embarrassing - he cannot string 90minutes together never mind 2-3 games
Morgan whilst the best of a bad bunch is limited - we were looking to ditch him when we got promotion yet he is still there!
Our defensive midfielders Ertl and Monty constantly give the ball away inviting sides to come straight back at us!
Face Facts guys- Blackwell has left us with a very very poor defensive unit!
AS for Henderson, the quicker we get the guy off our books the better!

Spot on Fiery. The defence is not good enough. Simple as.

It's a long way away from that fantastic defence we had in 08/09. Killa and Morgs complented each other very well, Naysmith was a rock and Naughton was simply awesome.

As for now, well we could muster a semi decent back 4 (De Laet, Morgs, Bartley and Jordan) that is not good enough for a promotion team, but should be enough for us to stay up. The problem is fitness, injuries and suspensions will inevitably mean that this back 4 can't play every game. We then draw on weak links like Nos, Calve, Taylor and Kozzy.

IMO Speed sgould make the back 4 the one above and work hard with them. With a few games together then I think they'd be ok. Stil get exposed by the better sides, but should be enough to keep the odd clean sheet etc.