Stadium and facilities redevelopment post KMC

[Radders]

It’s only possible if you make the height of the Kop stand taller but I suspect they’d want to keep the height of the Kop similar to the John Street and BLUT stand.
The other option which many use is to make a stand double or triple tier but think I’d prefer our Kop to remain single tier....like a proper Kop.

As Sheffsteel mentions, our current stands don't match each other in terms of steepness, height, etc but they've all got the front of the roof at the same height. In my opinion this helps make the ground seem well balanced and easy on the eye.
If they did rebuild the Kop more steep and hence taller, they could probably still keep the front of the roof at the current height?
The 'McCabe' plans for the Kop and South Stand are impressive but I don't like the different roof heights. Just a matter of personal taste though.

 

[JayGreen17]

The Mcabe plans are very dated in terms of designs, facilities and match day experience, for me a whole new approach and designs need to be drawn up, to match that of the on field plan.

Let’s get it right while we have a great opportunity, the crap heap under the Kop needs excavation and better use of the area, for a commercial use and the fans, it would make a brilliant fans hub round there.

 

[metalblade]

The Mcabe plans are very dated in terms of designs, facilities and match day experience, for me a whole new approach and designs need to be drawn up, to match that of the on field plan.

Let’s get it right while we have a great opportunity, the crap heap under the Kop needs excavation and better use of the area, for a commercial use and the fans, it would make a brilliant fans hub round there.

But but but I hear the small minded cry there could be WW2 unexploded bombs or the soil might be full of toxins or some other bollocks .............all the more reason to dig the bastard up and do it right which in the end could be the cheapest way forward rather than doing it all again every 25 years. That Pukka pie corner and Lineker's shipping container are just embarrassments.

 

[LoughboroBlade]

But but but I hear the small minded cry there could be WW2 unexploded bombs or the soil might be full of toxins or some other bollocks .............all the more reason to dig the bastard up and do it right which in the end could be the cheapest way forward rather than doing it all again every 25 years. That Pukka pie corner and Lineker's shipping container are just embarrassments.

In fairness to the shipping container, it’s not as bad as I feared it would be. With the matt black and club logo it’s one of the smartest shipping containers I’ve seen.

I’ve always been amazed that the suggestion there could be an unexplored bomb under the mound of the Kop is a reason given by people not to dig it out...

 

[TJB.]

Wilder has it reyt. Focus on the training and academy side of things for now. Anything else can come later.

Would you rather have a club playing in Europe with a pillar in the way, or a clear view whilst being at the arse end of the Premier League?

Priorities, gentlemen.

 

[LoughboroBlade]

Would you rather have a club playing in Europe with a pillar in the way, or a clear view whilst being at the arse end of the Premier League?

Priorities, gentlemen.

By that logic, why invest in the Academy at all then? Shouldn’t all the funds be focused at the first team, for fear of ending up “at the arse end” of the league?

There won’t ever be a time that first team investment isn’t the most important consideration. If that was the only thing that ever mattered we’d never rebuild anything again ever.

 

[YES Blade]

But but but I hear the small minded cry there could be WW2 unexploded bombs or the soil might be full of toxins or some other bollocks .............all the more reason to dig the bastard up and do it right which in the end could be the cheapest way forward rather than doing it all again every 25 years. That Pukka pie corner and Lineker's shipping container are just embarrassments.

It’s probably correct that the disposal costs of the spoil heap under the Kop will be expensive. But again, it’s a perfect example of the shortsightedness of the past. Had we done the job right in 91 and got rid of the heap then, it would’ve cost a fraction of what it will today.

 

[metalblade]

It’s probably correct that the disposal costs of the spoil heap under the Kop will be expensive. But again, it’s a perfect example of the shortsightedness of the past. Had we done the job right in 91 and got rid of the heap then, it would’ve cost a fraction of what it will today.

The early 90's kop rebuild was only ever meant to be temporary yet here we are nearly 30years on with bogs and food outlets barely able to cope with the numbers all outside and open to the elements. 4 huge pillars holding the roof up a shit view if you are higher than halfway up unless you stand even then it is not great.

 

[Jon Bon II]

The McCabe kop design could be done in the close season with the minimum of fuss and little or no reduction in capacity. After last home game, roof comes off, poles are removed, extended back section fitted with new cantilever roof. Season begins with new roof over kop, NO POLES, and, more importantly, no reduction in capacity. Around end of September-begining of October, new section at the back opens up giving 3k+ extra seats. Simples.

Rip it down and start again and you reduce the capacity by approx 10k for most, if not all of the season.

 

[Jon Bon II]

Ooooof! Gerrit buit! It'll look lovely on t'Champions League neets, all full o'screamin Blades, that will....

If anybody doesn't think that that looks mint, they need their bumps feeling.

 

[Charlieblade]

By that logic, why invest in the Academy at all then? Shouldn’t all the funds be focused at the first team, for fear of ending up “at the arse end” of the league?

There won’t ever be a time that first team investment isn’t the most important consideration. If that was the only thing that ever mattered we’d never rebuild anything again ever.

Would it be right to assume that a move to Cat 1 Academy status would take betwee 5 and 10 years to produce genuine first team prospects?
If true, it demonstrates the depth of Wilders long term plans for the club.

 

[S64 Blade]

Ooooof! Gerrit buit! It'll look lovely on t'Champions League neets, all full o'screamin Blades, that will....

If anybody doesn't think that that looks mint, they need their bumps feeling.

It looks mint, but the Kop practically, would not be.

The new design of the Kop is fine - single tier etc, however it’s the fact that it’s just an extension and revamp that’s the issue.

I’m with others in that the Kop needs to be done properly and the mound removed. It’ll help create a steeper take for a new single-tiered stand, more leg room, greater capacity for facilities underneath.

 

[Jon Bon II]

It looks mint, but the Kop practically, would not be.

The new design of the Kop is fine - single tier etc, however it’s the fact that it’s just an extension and revamp that’s the issue.

I’m with others in that the Kop needs to be done properly and the mound removed. It’ll help create a steeper take for a new single-tiered stand, more leg room, greater capacity for facilities underneath.

Read my previous post to that. A rebuild is out of the question. If it needed rebuilding, it should have been done in the Championship or even L1, when we could have more readily absorbed the capacity hit for a season. Call it a lack of foresight, lack of ambition, lack of belief, whatever but that's when a complete rebuild should have happened.

 

[S64 Blade]

Read my previous post to that. A rebuild is out of the question. If it needed rebuilding, it should have been done in the Championship or even L1, when we could have more readily absorbed the capacity hit for a season. Call it a lack of foresight, lack of ambition, lack of belief, whatever but that's when a complete rebuild should have happened.

We didn’t have the capital, or demand required, to build it in either the Championship or League One.

 

[Jon Bon II]

We didn’t have the capital, or demand required, to build it in either the Championship or League One.

You're totally not understanding this, are you?

 

[S64 Blade]

You're totally not understanding this, are you?

Idealism isn’t ‘understanding it’ either.

 

[Grizzly blade]

With the last set of plans we had all that student flats and business addition.
If we are premier league do we need all that as well? Could we utilise that area for a different purpose to meet fan engagement?

For me, we look to crack on ASAP with the KOP, and ensure new concourse is built within the extension.
The south stand should only be done after the Kop for me.

but does anyone else look at the hotel and see that big stand causing issues for the hotel?

 

[Cerberus Blade]

It’s only possible if you make the height of the Kop stand taller but I suspect they’d want to keep the height of the Kop similar to the John Street and BLUT stand.
The other option which many use is to make a stand double or triple tier but think I’d prefer our Kop to remain single tier....like a proper Kop.

Thanks for informing us about that safe standing thing that's under review - I didn't know about that. It sounds positive and I for one would like to see a return to approved "standing" areas, as opposed to what we have now - standing in seated areas (especially at away games). I think that's potentially far more dangerous.

I just want to pick up on your point about the kop remaining "single tier". Back in the day, when I was knee-high to a grasshopper, the kop was arguably not single tier. About half way up it had what we used to call "the high step". A walkway ran across the middle of it from the John Street side to the Cherry Street side. This step was about a metre high? Maybe a bit more? All I know is, I used to enter the ground about half-past one, an hour and a half before kick off, so I could get a place on the high step, because that meant I'd be able to see all the action.

What I would like to see is demolition of the existing kop and building of a new two tier kop that has greater capacity, all seater on the top tier and safe-standing area on the lower tier. I think it has to be that way round - seating above standing - for safety reasons. Otherwise if they had standing in a top tier when United score there'd be bodies dropping over the edge into the seats below, like one of them "penny falls" things in a Skeggy arcade!

 

[Cerberus Blade]

As Sheffsteel mentions, our current stands don't match each other in terms of steepness, height, etc but they've all got the front of the roof at the same height. In my opinion this helps make the ground seem well balanced and easy on the eye.
If they did rebuild the Kop more steep and hence taller, they could probably still keep the front of the roof at the current height?
The 'McCabe' plans for the Kop and South Stand are impressive but I don't like the different roof heights. Just a matter of personal taste though.

Yes I agree with that. I was thinking of grounds like Charlton Athletic's Valley and Bristol City's Ashton Gate. They've both got whopper stands at one end, but they've blended the roof-line and it looks o.k. to me.

I think we could make a real big statement with development of the ground. I suspect the first priority will be the South Stand. And the reason I say that is, we could easily extend out the back of the stand and build up to increase the capacity. It's something that could be started during the summer break and possibly even completed within the summer break? Because you're just adding on to a structure that is already there. Whereas, with the kop, you'd be needing to knock the whole thing down and then excavate out and back by some distance.

Anyhow, there's no reason now why we shouldn't get cracking on with these plans. We are in the Prem. We are staying in the Prem. We might even be going into Europe. We've got loadsamoney! An owner who's got access to as much sand as we could need - all we need now is a bit of cement and we're off!

 

[Blade-on-Tyne]

However the ground is reconstructed internally, some thought should be given to its external appearance.
If the back of the kop is heightened it would provide a space for the club to advertise its presence to the world - particularly train passengers on the nearby railway.
Anybody driving into Birmingham on the M6/A38 cannot miss Villa Park which prominently but tastefully identifies itself to the world. We should do something similar.

 

[stringjunior]

We've got loadsamoney! An owner who's got access to as much sand as we could need - all we need now is a bit of cement and we're off!

Brilliant

 

[Sheffsteel]

It looks mint, but the Kop practically, would not be.

The new design of the Kop is fine - single tier etc, however it’s the fact that it’s just an extension and revamp that’s the issue.

I’m with others in that the Kop needs to be done properly and the mound removed. It’ll help create a steeper take for a new single-tiered stand, more leg room, greater capacity for facilities underneath.

The business case should be put forward to fans.

Option A is to keep prices as they are now and use the design in the pictures.
Quite cheap to build, Increase in capacity, Removal of pillars, really modern and spacious covered concourse families, looks really good from the outside or

Option B is to increase prices 25% on the Kop chraging exactly the same as the south stand for 2 inches more knee room and slightly steeper rake.
Expensive to build, no increase in capacity, Removal of pillars, really modern and spacious covered concourse families, looks really good from the outside
BUT you receive a letter in the post from SU explaining capacity is reduced to 21K so you are totally banned from all our matches for up to 2 years.
Imagine the heartache if someone has been a season holder for 30 years and never missed a match...to be turned away in the name of progress.

Unless someone can come up with a radical idea....eg build a leisure park behind the Kop....restaurant, bars etc but doubt it would be a success.

 

[stringjunior]

There's a compromise here which doesn't involve knocking the stand down to rebuild but could improve the rake, add additional seating, keep roof lines, tie in the kop and SS, be relatively inexpensive and could be done relatively quickly. In fact, I'm a bloody genius and will be contacting PA forthwith.

The existing terracing is made of cast blocks of concrete laid on steel work. All we need to do is lay a new terrace on top of the existing which has a slightly better rake - the same in fact as the SS. There'd be a bit of work to do to reinforce the existing steelwork probably, but nothing too onerous. Remove the stantions, extend out of the back, build a whole new concourse beneath the extension, fill the kop/SS corner with seats, and move the media to the pukka corner.

All without shifting a very inconvenient mud bank.

I thank you.

 

[Harry's Game]

Ideally the Kop needs knocking down and starting again, unfortunately that would take about 12 months to clear the current stand, the old Kop still underneath and build a new one.

That would leave us a season with a capacity of around 21k not practical.

The best we can hope for is a new roof and the extension at the rear as per part of the McCabe master plan for the 2018 World Cup nonsense.

 

[Sheffsteel]

There's a compromise here which doesn't involve knocking the stand down to rebuild but could improve the rake, add additional seating, keep roof lines, tie in the kop and SS, be relatively inexpensive and could be done relatively quickly. In fact, I'm a bloody genius and will be contacting PA forthwith.

The existing terracing is made of cast blocks of concrete laid on steel work. All we need to do is lay a new terrace on top of the existing which has a slightly better rake - the same in fact as the SS. There'd be a bit of work to do to reinforce the existing steelwork probably, but nothing too onerous. Remove the stantions, extend out of the back, build a whole new concourse beneath the extension, fill the kop/SS corner with seats, and move the media to the pukka corner.

All without shifting a very inconvenient mud bank.

I thank you.

Decent suggestion....more feasible that....however in the original design the extra 3,200 at the back of the Kop do have more leg room and a steeper rake.
Also if we try to increase the rake of the current Kop then it will still mean a total closure for part of the season.
Massive inconvenience and upset to fans who are effectively banned and also the costs will greatly increase due to lost revenue.

If I was playing Football manager i’d clear the lot....use Hillsborough for 2 years and build a new 50K stadium similar to the Spurs design but its not a game....the plans must have a business case/ plan and we need to think about how life long fans might be effected. To be honest I’m not bothered about have the best stadium in the UK.....as long as the Kop is brought up to “this century” standards (concourse under cover) and we increase capacity to about 36K then I’m satisfied.

 

[LoughboroBlade]

BUT you receive a letter in the post from SU explaining capacity is reduced to 21K so you are totally banned from all our matches for up to 2 years.
Imagine the heartache if someone has been a season holder for 30 years and never missed a match...to be turned away in the name of progress.

If season ticket holders elsewhere in the ground are genuinely concerned by the idea that those on the Kop are cut off from matches for up to 2 years, how would they like the idea of limiting all (including their) season tickets to 50% of home games to ensure all season ticket holders can continue to get to a good number of the games while the construction happens? Or giving those affected all priority on away games? I’m assuming that while they would think it outrageous that the Kop STHs are ‘homeless’ for a year or two, the idea of the effects being distributed across the rest of the fanbase would be even less well received.

For the record as a non-STH but someone that makes about half the home games, I would hate to not go at all for a couple of seasons. But I would accept that being the temporary way of things with seats only for STHs while they built something good. But I accept not everyone will have that view...

 

[bromtom]

If season ticket holders elsewhere in the ground are genuinely concerned by the idea that those on the Kop are cut off from matches for up to 2 years, how would they like the idea of limiting all (including their) season tickets to 50% of home games to ensure all season ticket holders can continue to get to a good number of the games while the construction happens? Or giving those affected all priority on away games? I’m assuming that while they would think it outrageous that the Kop STHs are ‘homeless’ for a year or two, the idea of the effects being distributed across the rest of the fanbase would be even less well received.

For the record as a non-STH but someone that makes about half the home games, I would hate to not go at all for a couple of seasons. But I would accept that being the temporary way of things with seats only for STHs while they built something good. But I accept not everyone will have that view...

Couldn't they knock half of it down, build that, and then do the other half. It'd be novel wunnit haha

Split right down the middle, and you can only enter from the John Street side, new bit get's built, opened, and then they knock the John Street half down (and the Pukka Pie Corner) and build that.

 

[Tarqs]

Decent suggestion....more feasible that....however in the original design the extra 3,200 at the back of the Kop do have more leg room and a steeper rake.
Also if we try to increase the rake of the current Kop then it will still mean a total closure for part of the season.
Massive inconvenience and upset to fans who are effectively banned and also the costs will greatly increase due to lost revenue.

If I was playing Football manager i’d clear the lot....use Hillsborough for 2 years and build a new 50K stadium similar to the Spurs design but its not a game....the plans must have a business case/ plan and we need to think about how life long fans might be effected. To be honest I’m not bothered about have the best stadium in the UK.....as long as the Kop is brought up to “this century” standards (concourse under cover) and we increase capacity to about 36K then I’m satisfied.

They'd lose me then.

There's absolutely no way I'm setting foot in that stadium.

 

[Sheffsteel]

If season ticket holders elsewhere in the ground are genuinely concerned by the idea that those on the Kop are cut off from matches for up to 2 years, how would they like the idea of limiting all (including their) season tickets to 50% of home games to ensure all season ticket holders can continue to get to a good number of the games while the construction happens? Or giving those affected all priority on away games? I’m assuming that while they would think it outrageous that the Kop STHs are ‘homeless’ for a year or two, the idea of the effects being distributed across the rest of the fanbase would be even less well received.

For the record as a non-STH but someone that makes about half the home games, I would hate to not go at all for a couple of seasons. But I would accept that being the temporary way of things with seats only for STHs while they built something good. But I accept not everyone will have that view...

Seems fairer but then instead of 11,000 Blades being effected missing 100% of home games
your suggestion is that all 28,000 Blades miss about 40% of home games.

Its still alot of games to miss and every single fan will be effected. Imagine the fans who having missed a home game for over 30 years.
It would seem a spectacular own goal that SU are having their most successful spell in decades with massive demand
and we decrease the capacity by such a large amount. You can imagine there will be some Blades that once out of the habit of going might not return.

 

[YES Blade]

The business case should be put forward to fans.

Option A is to keep prices as they are now and use the design in the pictures.
Quite cheap to build, Increase in capacity, Removal of pillars, really modern and spacious covered concourse families, looks really good from the outside or

Option B is to increase prices 25% on the Kop chraging exactly the same as the south stand for 2 inches more knee room and slightly steeper rake.
Expensive to build, no increase in capacity, Removal of pillars, really modern and spacious covered concourse families, looks really good from the outside
BUT you receive a letter in the post from SU explaining capacity is reduced to 21K so you are totally banned from all our matches for up to 2 years.
Imagine the heartache if someone has been a season holder for 30 years and never missed a match...to be turned away in the name of progress.

Unless someone can come up with a radical idea....eg build a leisure park behind the Kop....restaurant, bars etc but doubt it would be a success.

So the only way to re-build the Kop/improve the Lane is by banning fans for 2 years? There are no feasible alternatives at all? What about:

• Playing away from the lane for a season?
• Play away the last few matches of one season and the first few matches of the next?
• Utilise the space behind the Kop and South Stands to start construction without effecting the current stands? It would help to move both stands towards the corner of Cherry Street and Shoreham Street to give extra room to expand John Street and Lane End.
• Look to expand John Street first, purchase houses and businesses to give us extra room?
• Turn the pitch 90 degrees and build a new stadium? Part of the construction can be completed without touching the current stands.

The priority should be what is best for the club long term, not what's cheapest and easiest right now. There is no rush to start building now, let's wait and get it right, even if that takes 5, 10 or even 15 years.