An interesting perspective on VAR

[Sheffsteel]

As expected It seems that football fans and managers are too biased to make logical objective judgements.

If a goal is disallowed then fans and managers are looking at any avenue as to why it should count for their team.
So you hear comments like....it’s unfair on the fans, it was only a few inches offside so should count, it was only a gentle foul so should count....it was only a slight handball so should count......you even hear...it would have been a great goal so it’s seems unfair to rule it out.

Think it’s more of a cultural issue and most fans will gradually get used to it.

Many suggests changes without thinking if the consequences. For example.

1: If we scrap VAR then clear ref mistakes will be made every week....also players will be able to con the ref with diving and play acting.
Refs will start to crowd the ref again and try to intimidate him to make decisions in their favour.

2: You could ask refs to use the on field camera but the Liverpool v Flamengo final showed the dangers.
The ref gives a penalty in injury time, basically handing Liverpool the win on a plate.
After the award the Flamengo players crowd the ref begging him,...almost crying that he shows some mercy and refuses the pen.
The ref gets caught up in the emotion of his decision....the video shows it was a foul but just outside the area...so clearly a free kick
but after watching the video the ref says no foul and gives a free kicks to Flamengo.

Imagine a massive match at Anfield or Old Trafford and the opposition score a last minute goal or gain a penalty....the ref might be asked to walk over to the screen...
it will be like the walk of death...he’ll be under so much pressure to overturn his decision in favour of the home team and will likely face a backlash and intimidation from the players.

At least for the West Ham goal the ref can say “it wasn’t my decision mate...an handball was seen on VAR”, this settles the players and the crowd.

Think much of the problem is due to the delay in making a decision.....it’s as though someone is wanting to buildup the drama of VAR decisions.

 

[FallowfieldBlade]

As expected It seems that football fans and managers are too biased to make logical objective judgements.

If a goal is disallowed then fans and managers are looking at any avenue as to why it should count for their team.
So you hear comments like....it’s unfair on the fans, it was only a few inches offside so should count, it was only a gentle foul so should count....it was only a slight handball so should count......you even here....it would have been a great goal so it’s seems unfair to rule it out.

Think it’s more of a cultural issue and most fans will gradually get used to it.

Many suggests changes without thinking if the consequences. For example.

1: If we scrap VAR then clear ref mistakes will be made every week....also players will be able to con the ref with diving and play acting.
Refs will start to crowd the ref again and try to intimidate him to make decisions in their favour.

2: You could ask refs to use the on field camera but the Liverpool v Flamengo final showed the dangers.
The ref gives a penalty in injury time, basically handing Liverpool the win on a plate.
After the award the Flamengo players crowd the ref begging him,...almost crying that he shows some mercy and refuses the pen.
The ref gets caught up in the emotion of his decision....the video shows it was a foul but just outside the area...so clearly a free kick
but after watching the video the ref says no foul and gives a free kicks to Flamengo.

Imagine a massive match at Anfield or Old Trafford and the opposition score a last minute goal or gain a penalty....the ref might be asked to walk over to the screen...
it will be like the walk of death...he’ll be under so much pressure to overturn his decision in favour of the home team and will likely face a backlash and intimidation from the players.

At least for the West Ham goal the ref can say “it wasn’t my decision mate...an handball was seen on VAR”, this settles the players and the crowd.

Now that fans have seen what the alternative is in VAR there will nowhere near as much moaning of the REFS.

Tell me the last time we had a massive massive clanger i cant remember of the top of my head.

VAR is not worth the problems it causes, Just get rid off it nobody wants it sack it off at the end of the season

 

[guancheblade]

A few years ago on the cricket they used to show off with an “ultra motion” camera which was pretty spectacular. Doesn’t seem to be used anywhere anymore but something along those lines is EXACTLY what VAR needs if they are insistent on checking offsides where there’s a gnats bollock in it. You’ll get to see exactly when the ball has left the provider and exactly where the body of the attacker is in relation to the defender, no more instances of Lundstram and his size 27 clown boots at Spurs.

It’s a good concept just being let down by horrendous implementation in the PL. For me, offsides should only be subject to a clear and obvious test. No more bloody lines.

Close offsides to be judged by the on pitch ref by looking at pitch side monitor with NO BLOODY LINES!! He watches it back in real time only (no slow mo), and watches it no more than once. If he can't spot an offside in that one real time instance then it is no clear and obvious error and therefore its not offside. End of story.

 

[NuddysGloves]

ive said before I think that vast majority of VAR is working of course people who come off it worse are going to dislike it but I would keep it but their needs to be some tweaks, offside is the biggest issue & specifically they need to use the human eye get rid of the lines. does he look offside its simple that would clear up the vast majority of the stupid offsides where we ruling out goals for being level. which I think out of all VAR that have annoyed me is purely offside.

the handball ball I don't mind because on that matter I think it should come under the rules of did the opposing team gain an advantage. so egan v brighton & rice v us. gets ruled out because the goals wouldn't have happened without the handball. but jesus v spurs in aug & wolves disallowed goal last night goal should've been allowed

Why should the Wolves goal have been allowed? As his arm swings forwards it knocks the ball into the path of his team mate who puts the ball in the net, it's hard to find an example of a handball giving more of an advantage than that!

 

[Carlton Blade]

Fuck VAR

 

[nicksufc]

VAR to enforce rules is a good thing and has the backing of most people i think in principle.

They've just been taking liberties with "clear and obvious" all season, which has fucked everybody off. Like WB says, they cant be mm accurate, so stop trying to be, nobody even asked or expected them to. If it was just used for the obvious law enforcements, then it should/ would be el rapido.

Define clear and obvious.

 

[jt64]

Yet more people complaining about offside when their issue is with how the offside law is worded rather than VAR

 

[tyke1889]

Close offsides to be judged by the on pitch ref by looking at pitch side monitor with NO BLOODY LINES!! He watches it back in real time only (no slow mo), and watches it no more than once. If he can't spot an offside in that one real time instance then it is no clear and obvious error and therefore its not offside. End of story.

Only works if the camera is absolutely bang level with play and it very rarely is.

 

[Ted Danson]

Why dont they just have little chips / transmitters in their boots and do all the offside automatically on a computer based on the position of everyone's feet. Take all the dodgy camera angles and frame rates out of the equation.

I dont see any point in linesmen anymore, they're just confusing things

 

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

Define clear and obvious.

When you have to make judgements, it is about opinions, so clear and obvious seems fair enough; rather like in trials ‘beyond reasonable doubt’. Not foolproof, but that’s life.

 

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

Is that Stanley Park, Blackpool,

View attachment 68714

or Stanley Park. Liverpool?

View attachment 68715

Don't forget, this is the internet and we need to ensure everything is 100% correct!

And over to VAR for the verdict...

 

[tyke1889]

Why dont they just have little chips / transmitters in their boots and do all the offside automatically on a computer based on the position of everyone's feet. Take all the dodgy camera angles and frame rates out of the equation.

I dont see any point in linesmen anymore, they're just confusing things

Probably a daft idea but,
they already wear GPS trackers, I don't think that's accurate enough, but what about a sensor of some sort worn in the same part of each player's body and use that. Take arms, legs and head out of it?

 

[ChemEngBlade]

Just read this re VAR. I feel it sums it up nicely.

"It's Simple.
Crooks don't like CCTV
Cheats don't like VAR
VAR does need tweaking a bit, a small bit.
It needs decisions to sped up.
How many of us have watched a game and know a player is offside from the first viewing.
Yet the VAR ref takes an age to get to the decision.

As for the handball...yes it can be harsh but as long as the same rule applies to all that's fine."

I feel this is spot on tbh.

Issue is though that 50 frames per second isn't precise enough to call a player offside when they're at full pace. 20cm margin of error when Sterling is as full pace, how many decisions have we seen this season tighter than 20cm? Plenty.

The handball rule is crazy as it stands. Handball for an attacker rules a goal out but if its a defender that denies a goal-scoring opportunity then its accidental? That's bullshit. For an example, see Ward-Prowse at Bramall Lane from our corner. If he doesn't handle it, the ball comes to JOC and he potentially scores.

 

[NuddysGloves]

Issue is though that 50 frames per second isn't precise enough to call a player offside when they're at full pace. 20cm margin of error when Sterling is as full pace, how many decisions have we seen this season tighter than 20cm? Plenty.

The handball rule is crazy as it stands. Handball for an attacker rules a goal out but if its a defender that denies a goal-scoring opportunity then its accidental? That's bullshit. For an example, see Ward-Prowse at Bramall Lane from our corner. If he doesn't handle it, the ball comes to JOC and he potentially scores.

The handball rule is daft in the sense it is one rule for attackers and one for defenders. Why not use the current rule for defenders? It should lead to more penalties, which should lead to more goals, and it will also force defenders to go for blocks with their arms behind their backs, which is more difficult and should therefore lead to more goals. Sure there will be occasions where it strikes an arm and people will claim it is unfair but at least it would be the same for every player.

 

[PokerBlade]

Here's what I want:
The same speed of decision as a referee
More accurate than a referee

Goal line technology provides this beautifully. VAR doesn't. And now I'm reading, in spite of how crap VAR has been, people want to change the rules, not because the rules were the problem, because then VAR might function better. People want to put time restrictions on the refs to make a decision. This means sacrificing the accuracy which is the only thing this was ever meant to provide.

Why would anyone want to make more changes to the game in order to accommodate something that isn't working? Why can't we just say what we did for years about the goal line tech and say that what we want doesn't exist yet but we'll bring it in as soon as it does?

 

[BladeByChoice]

Probably a daft idea but,
they already wear GPS trackers, I don't think that's accurate enough, but what about a sensor of some sort worn in the same part of each player's body and use that. Take arms, legs and head out of it?

Not as daft as it sounds;

I’ve spent a large part of my life over the last 2 years working on tracking systems. And the technology to do this already exists, it has for about the past 5 years.

I haven’t fully thought this through but off the top of my head.

You would need a grid of receivers, achieved by installing a small device along one side and end of the pitch every metre; these are about half the size of a mobile phone and can be housed in weather proof enclosures, most grounds could accommodate these along the eves of the stands.

Each player would have a transmitter installed in their boots, anywhere else would not work, e.g. wristbands, players would soon learn to make a run with a trailing arm.

The code base from any for the current key tracer, employee tracker or door entry systems could be altered in a couple of months.

The ball would need an impact transmitter.

A system of this type is capable of taking 20 readings per second so would be accurate to how far a player can move in 1/20th of a second. This could be factored into the software as an error margin.

The system works by triangulating a ping sent from the players boots so is not reliant on GPS or any third party system.

That’s about it but what would it do.

At the start of a match each player would have to stand on a pad set at known co-ordinates which would read the players chip and configure their boots and current position, this could just be a mat rolled out at the end of the tunnel that the players run over.

A similar reader could also be placed in the plinth where the ball sits before kick off.

The position of every players feet and the ball would then be visible on a screen in real time, not the actual match, a grid with dots representing boots and ball. this could be anywhere in the world.

For any possible off side the system would know the position of every players feet at the moment the ball was played.

I can see some limitations, the system would know the moment the ball was played but not who played it, but isn’t that the referees job.

The system could only read when the ball was kicked, headed etc, but the current off side rule states when the ball leaves the player, there is a time difference between a players foot contacting the ball and the ball leaving a players foot during a pass, is that time difference significant.

Advantages:

Accuracy not dependant on frame rates.
No blurry images.
No made up lines all over the pitch.
Ref and linesmen decide if its offside or not and use the technology to assist in close calls.
Would take 10 seconds to look at the screen.

Disadvantages:

These systems are proven technology, they work, they are simple and they are secure. This could be implemented in every Premier League ground for about a million quid. The Premier League would want to spend 500 million, redesign the hardware, rewrite the software from scratch, take 5 years and make a complete bollocks of the whole thing.

 

[haich1889]

As a matter of technology (frame rates etc), VAR cannot be as precise as its supporters claim it is. It needs to admit to a margin of error, but that undermines a large part of the reason for having it.

Agreed. Unless VAR can definitively identify when the ball leaves a players foot/head it's actually irrelevant whether Lunny's big toe or any part of any players anatomy is cm''s offside.

With every offside decision I've seen little scrutiny is put on whether the ball is still in contact with or left the boot/head of the ball player.

Look at Lunny's offside & Moose's offside for example, it's impossible to see if the ball is in motion at the point when the lines are drawn on the pitch.

I'm not against VAR just think a couple of tweeks will make it better.

a) lines drawn should be from the back of the attacker/defenders leading boot. This would stop players with bigger feet being penalised. Also would stop goals being cancelled due to armpits, knees or whether a player has a bigger bell-end than a defender.

b) if it takes longer than a specified time: say 40 secs/4 views of a monitor, IT ISN'T 'CLEAR & OBVIOUS' so the decision should stand or benefit go to the attackers.

 

[NuddysGloves]

The system works by triangulating a ping sent from the players boots so is not reliant on GPS or any third party system.

WITH HIS FUCKING PIIIIIIIIINGS!

sorry....quite literally couldn't help myself.

Fascinating post though, not a perfect system but a far more accurate and therefore fair system than the one currently being used.

 

[1987]

Define clear and obvious.

Something that doesnt take lines, a magnifying glass and 3 minutes.

 

[guancheblade]

Why dont they just have little chips / transmitters in their boots and do all the offside automatically on a computer based on the position of everyone's feet. Take all the dodgy camera angles and frame rates out of the equation.

I dont see any point in linesmen anymore, they're just confusing things

This is similar to a suggestion I made last year. Just generate a real time eagle eye 2D map of the pitch and track the Opta trackers the players wear. Freeze frame every time the ball is kicked. If one player's tracker is beyond the tracker of the last defender then it is offside.

Better than current situation because

1) It's an instantaneous decision (like goal line technology)
2) Consistent, no grey areas or room for interpretation
3) Can be integrated without modifying the way the game is played