Is promotion a poison chalice?

[LouTheBlade]

If Nades goal at Christmas had beaten Wigan, and we'd lost to Arsenal on the last day, would you still think it was all our fault...

Don't understand that point Dunc although I know what you're getting at. It's all if's and but's. The fact remains we knew what we had to do on the last day against a very ordinary Wigan side.

I know West Ham were under punished etc. etc. but it was still in our hands. The manager picked a ludicrous team and 3 or 4 players bottled it.

 

[Revolution]

Portsmouth, bust
Fulham, living out of a billionaires pocket
Wigan, bust
Stoke, living out of a millionaires pocket
Hull, bust
Leicester, gone bust
Soton, gone bust
Leeds, gone bust
Charlton, bust
Norwich, bust
Forest, living out of a millionaires pocket
Wednesday, bust...

(not sure what this proves...)

It proves that you don't understand what "bust" actually means.

 

[Darren]

Don't understand that point Dunc although I know what you're getting at. It's all if's and but's. The fact remains we knew what we had to do on the last day against a very ordinary Wigan side.

I know West Ham were under punished etc. etc. but it was still in our hands. The manager picked a ludicrous team and 3 or 4 players bottled it.

Interestingly, on EVERY occasion in my life time when United's promotion or relegation fate turned out to be in their own hands in a final game they have failed:

1968 Chelsea
1981 Walsall
1988 Bristol City
1994 Chelsea
1997 Palace
2003 Wolves
2007 Wigan
2009 Burnley

On the other occasions we have been promoted or relegated our fate had already been decided before the final game (1976, 1982, 1989 (effectively) 2006) or, where our fate may have depended on us getting a result in a final game results elsewhere meant we would have been promoted/been relegated anyway (1971, 1979, 1990); or on one occasion, our fate was decided by a game we didn't play in (1984).

Going back even further we were promoted in 1953 and 1961 with a couple of games to spare and relegated in 1949 and 1956 (I believe) having failed to get the right results in our last game of those seasons. In fact, I think the last time we had a vital last game of the season where we successfully got the result we needed and it turned out to be vital was the 6-1 win over Spurs at the end of the 38-39 season which saw us promoted (had we lost Wednesday would have gone up instead of us).

No wonder we are all such pessimists :-(

 

[Revolution]

Going back even further we were promoted in 1953 and 1961 with a couple of games to spare and relegated in 1949 and 1956 (I believe) having failed to get the right results in our last game of those seasons.

United were already down in 1956 by the last game.

In 1949 United were relegated after drawing with Newcastle. A win would've kept us up.

In fact, I think the last time we had a vital last game of the season where we successfully got the result we needed and it turned out to be vital was the 6-1 win over Spurs at the end of the 38-39 season which saw us promoted (had we lost Wednesday would have gone up instead of us).

We had to win our last game in 1950 to have a chance of promotion; we won 5-0. This put us a point ahead of Wednesday, who had a game left, against an already promoted Spurs. Wednesday drew 0-0 and went up on goal average. A 1-1 draw would have seen the two Sheffield clubs in a dead heat.

It's also usually forgotten about 1988 that United could have gone straight down automatically rather than been in the playoffs had they lost their last game and Reading won; as it turned out, we won at Huddersfield and Reading lost, though we got dumped out of the playoffs anyway.

Oh, and we also lost our last game in 1938 and missed promotion when a draw would have done.

THe only time United have ever escaped relegation on the last day of the season when they could have gone down was 1930, when they won 5-1 at Old Trafford to stay up.

As you say, our record is depressing and must be worse than anyone else's as regards last day failure.

 

[Darren]

Going back even further we were promoted in 1953 and 1961 with a couple of games to spare and relegated in 1949 and 1956 (I believe) having failed to get the right results in our last game of those seasons.

United were already down in 1956 by the last game.

In 1949 United were relegated after drawing with Newcastle. A win would've kept us up.

In fact, I think the last time we had a vital last game of the season where we successfully got the result we needed and it turned out to be vital was the 6-1 win over Spurs at the end of the 38-39 season which saw us promoted (had we lost Wednesday would have gone up instead of us).

We had to win our last game in 1950 to have a chance of promotion; we won 5-0. This put us a point ahead of Wednesday, who had a game left, against an already promoted Spurs. Wednesday drew 0-0 and went up on goal average. A 1-1 draw would have seen the two Sheffield clubs in a dead heat.

It's also usually forgotten about 1988 that United could have gone straight down automatically rather than been in the playoffs had they lost their last game and Reading won; as it turned out, we won at Huddersfield and Reading lost, though we got dumped out of the playoffs anyway.

Oh, and we also lost our last game in 1938 and missed promotion when a draw would have done.

THe only time United have ever escaped relegation on the last day of the season when they could have gone down was 1930, when they won 5-1 at Old Trafford to stay up.

Thanks for the clarification on 1956.

1950 doesn't make any difference to my point - we would not have got promoted whatever we did in that last game and, again, the 1988 Huddersfield result turned out not to matter.

Technically we did escape relegation on the last day of the 92-93 season as we could have gone down had we lost 7-0 and Oldham won 6-0 (or somesuch). As it happened, we beat Chelsea 4-2, Oldham won and Palace lost, sending them down.

 

[Revolution]

1950 doesn't make any difference to my point - we would not have got promoted whatever we did in that last game and, again, the 1988 Huddersfield result turned out not to matter.

You are right in the sense it did not turn out to be vital in either case, but of course in both cases the team did not to know that at the time. It was by no means certain that Wednesday would get what they needed against Spurs in 1950, for example.

 

[Darren]

1950 doesn't make any difference to my point - we would not have got promoted whatever we did in that last game and, again, the 1988 Huddersfield result turned out not to matter.

You are right in the sense it did not turn out to be vital in either case, but of course in both cases the team did not to know that at the time. It was by no means certain that Wednesday would get what they needed against Spurs in 1950, for example.

Fair enough, but on that basis we could also argue that the team succeeded in vital games v Watford in 1971, Newport in 1984 and Leicester in 1990.

 

[Revolution]

Fair enough, but on that basis we could also argue that the team succeeded in vital games v Watford in 1971, Newport in 1984 and Leicester in 1990.

It did.

It's odd how when we have had a chance to go up other results sometimes went for us anyway (the 3 dates you mention) whereas that has never happened when we've been faced with relegation - someone else (sometimes more than 1 other team) has passed us.

 

[mattbianco1]

If Nades goal at Christmas had beaten Wigan, and we'd lost to Arsenal on the last day, would you still think it was all our fault...

We played Arsenal in December and won. We lost tro Wigan on the last day. Your point is irrelevant. BUT... if we were 1.1 with Arsenal and Jags had handballed to give them a soft penalty then yes we would have thrown it away!

 

[beightonblade]

The football finance bubble has burst ! ..... 2010 will see many clubs re-thinking spending policies either through gud sense or necessaty. McCabe as ever is in front on this policy......luv him or loath him he's as sharp as a Blade.
The big uns an the little uns will be safe enuff its the clubs in the middle who are in most danger.
I've always thought SB wasn't interested in investing in SUFC big time ...... now i'm not so sure.