Why aren't we signing promising players on loan?

[Highbury_Blade]

Why is it, that out of all the 'Big' teams in the championship, we're the only ones not loaning talent from the top half of the premiership? (Walker aside obviously, but that's a special case)

Do we not have the chutzpah to ask, will teams not send the youngsters to play for Blackwell because of the tactics, is our reputation mud amongst premier league managers after the tevez affair and/or the warnock years?

Say what you will about Robson, but he at least managed to bring in good quality players on loan.

Blackwell in my eyes at least is not using the loan market to add value to the squad, like Hull did with Frazier Campbell and we did we Gary Cahill. We seem to back to the 'do a job for us' days, and i can't see us getting anywhere with that approach. It worked for Warnock (eventually) as he was great at getting the best out of players, but Blackwell does not seem to possess similar skills.

 

[SE1Blade]

One word - money.

What wages do you think Cahill (current England player) and Bardsley (current Premiership captain) would have been on?? That's why Robson could bring in decent players. If Blackwell had the same money he'd bring the same calibre of player. To suggest Blackwell would rather have this Fulham reserve or Gary Cahill is ridiculous.

Its not about Blackwell, its about money. Just like it was with Warnock. We always tend to give the best managers no money and the worst managers loads.

 

[Highbury_Blade]

One word - money.

What wages do you think Cahill (current England player) and Bardsley (current Premiership captain) would have been on?? That's why Robson could bring in decent players. If Blackwell had the same money he'd bring the same calibre of player. To suggest Blackwell would rather have this Fulham reserve or Gary Cahill is ridiculous.

Its not about Blackwell, its about money. Just like it was with Warnock. We always tend to give the best managers no money and the worst managers loads.

OK so why have Watford, a club with well publicised financial problems managed to land 3 players from Arsenal & man utd?


Don't know what wages Cahill & Bardsley were on when they came here, but certainly nothing like they are on now.

Loaning a promising youngster is a mutually beneficial arrangement for both clubs, and unless the person doing the negotiating for the loaning club is a total muppet then the wages should be split between the two clubs.

Blackwell has spent all his career working with average players. I don't think he knows what makes a quality player, which is why i would not be disappointed if the rumours about Shearer are more than paper talk.

 

[alcoblade]

Robson's "skills" in the transfer / loan market were directionally proportional to the wages we paid - enormous.

I suspect the players we're loaning are, in the main, players we stand a chance of buying should they come off. Not a bad principle at all, so I'd support Blackwell / the club in that. I do share the concern that Blackwell doesn't have the eye for quality though, so we probably aren't signing the players to move us forward.

UTB

 

[Highbury_Blade]

I suspect the players we're loaning are, in the main, players we stand a chance of buying should they come off. Not a bad principle at all, so I'd support Blackwell / the club in that.

UTB

The problem with that is that if we get promoted we're lumbered with contracts for players not good enough for the premiership.

 

[Robbie]

What wages do you think Cahill (current England player) and Bardsley (current Premiership captain) would have been on??

Bardsley - a youth player at Man United.
Cahill - a youth player at Aston Villa.

I wouldn't imagine all that much to be honest.

We got these lpayers' careers moving.

To suggest Blackwell would rather have this Fulham reserve or Gary Cahill is ridiculous.

Nobody suggested this at all. Gary Cahill is now an established player in the Premier League.

Its not about Blackwell, its about money. Just like it was with Warnock. We always tend to give the best managers no money and the worst managers loads.

Well with that in mind, shouldn't Blackwell have loads of money to spend then?

 

[gregblade]

which is why i would not be disappointed if the rumours about Shearer are more than paper talk.

Please god no! I cant understand anybody that thinks Shearer would be good for the club. Im dreading the thought of him coming. Untried and untested in the championship, his only experience is taking a sinking ship down!

If were going to go down the ex top player, untried manager line.....then we might as well give it to Gary Speed.

 

[S64 Blade]

I agree with what Highbury is saying. We seem to miss out, for whatever reason, on good young loan players like Cleverly at Watford. I think it's definitely an area we should be looking at improving.

 

[davidpinder]

The gary speed thing has been touched on before he must have some input at the moment, the only thing he may do is attract better players. I don't think that its all down to money with blackwell and united, i honestly don't think he'd know where to start looking at a good young player don't forget where he has managed in the past. Robsons signings were good ones he just couldn't get us playing well (however i think we were playing better than we are now) (Q the "robson didn't have blackwells injury problems").
How many confirmed loan players do we have now? what chance have we really got with all these loans, to mount a serious climb up the table.

 

[Ollessendro]

One word - money.

What wages do you think Cahill (current England player) and Bardsley (current Premiership captain) would have been on?? That's why Robson could bring in decent players. If Blackwell had the same money he'd bring the same calibre of player. To suggest Blackwell would rather have this Fulham reserve or Gary Cahill is ridiculous.

Its not about Blackwell, its about money. Just like it was with Warnock. We always tend to give the best managers no money and the worst managers loads.

Completely and utterly disagree with you here SE1.

There is a lot more to it than money. Blackwell's reputation is certainly a contributing factor. He has consistently struggled to sign anybody with any repuation. How many times have we had people snatched from under our noses, or players just not interested? I put it down to Blackwell.

Sure money makes a difference, but it is not the be all and end all. Plus, teams that send out promising young players on loan are likely to subside their wages. For example, if Man U want to send out Kid A on loan and he is getting paid 20k a week and we are only willing to pay 12. Man U will probably carry on paying the 8k as he is still their player and is getting experience. Before anybody rubbishes this: Crespo was loaned out to AC Milan when he was at Chelsea. Of his 115k a week wages Chelsea carried on shouldering 80k of that. Now this might seem a bit ridiculous (especially as he scored against Chelsea for Milan) but it proves that it does happen.

Just you lot watch. If Gary Speed, Shearer or whoever comes in then we'll start attracting bigger names (depsite our budget). Would you want to play for Blackwell? All you would have to do is come to BDTBL for one match and watch the shit that is served up to be put off. You'd see what the fans think of him and think, do I want to be playing for him? You could even watch on Sky Sports when he plays a left winger on the right wing and a left back on the left wing. Then after going a goal down he plays the left back on the right wing for 15 minutes, stood there with his hands in his pockets like a prize buffoon. All this while he has 2 right wingers on the bench, whom he bothed signed (and one he payed 2 million for!?). The guy is a total and utter joke and that's why we can't get promising young playters in on loan!!??

 

[SwissBlade]

Money is obviously a huge factor. Its well documented that the players that Robson got were on bug wages... thats part of the reason why we only have just Naysmith left (I think) from Robsons tenure.

We now only get players in on the cheap.

Blackwell - I agree that he's also a reason and I'd say that this is because he doesn't have the contacts in the game that others like Robson, Shearer or even Speed have. I see the PL as a Old Boys Club, so breaking that after Tevez might also be difficult.

The other thing is that the two loans we have are month loans to fill a gap.

And Robbie...Wasn't Cahill was a reserve at Villa and Bardsley a Reserve at Man U, not Youth team? I imagine there'll be a huge difference in Salary between the two.

 

[Santos]

Why is it, that out of all the 'Big' teams in the championship, we're the only ones not loaning talent from the top half of the premiership? (Walker aside obviously, but that's a special case)

Do we not have the chutzpah to ask, will teams not send the youngsters to play for Blackwell because of the tactics, is our reputation mud amongst premier league managers after the tevez affair and/or the warnock years?

Say what you will about Robson, but he at least managed to bring in good quality players on loan.

Blackwell in my eyes at least is not using the loan market to add value to the squad, like Hull did with Frazier Campbell and we did we Gary Cahill. We seem to back to the 'do a job for us' days, and i can't see us getting anywhere with that approach. It worked for Warnock (eventually) as he was great at getting the best out of players, but Blackwell does not seem to possess similar skills.

You mean like we did with Greg Halford?

 

[davidpinder]

Don't 100% agree with that swiss, the reason that not many of robsons players are left is that blackwell wants his own team which he has made clear and has been past excuses.

 

[Fiery Blade]

If you look at the loan players Blackwells brought in
Halford, Lupoli, Craig Beattie, Bunn, Treacey, Cresswell, Davies, Harper, Walker, plus the players he's signed Evans, Cotterill, Fortune, Camara, Reid, Little etc non of these were getting regular football in their respective teams
How can people say we have a quality squad when it is full of loanees and cast offs that other sides don't want!
And McCabe STILL STATES that the budget for wages and signings is one of the highest in the division
As my dad always said to me ' If you had told that to a donkey it would kick you brains out'

 

[Santos]

Bardsley - a youth player at Man United.
Cahill - a youth player at Aston Villa.

I wouldn't imagine all that much to be honest.

We got these lpayers' careers moving.



Nobody suggested this at all. Gary Cahill is now an established player in the Premier League.



Well with that in mind, shouldn't Blackwell have loads of money to spend then?

Can't agree with that at all Robbie. Bardsley had been out on loan to Burnley, Rangers & Aston Villa (played 13 games) as well as playing a handful of games for Man Utd's first time. Cahill had played on loan at a few clubs and played for Villa a fair few times (scored a corker against Birmingham!).

We helped their career but I think they were very well on their way already. They'd had been on a fair whack.

Bardsley was shite though.

 

[Fiery Blade]

You mean like we did with Greg Halford?

Halford was probably Blackwells best loan signing yet he couldn't break into the Sunderland or Reading sides when they were in the prem. I believe Halford to be a good CCC player who would struggle to keep putting in consistant displays in the top div!

 

[Robbie]

And Robbie...Wasn't Cahill was a reserve at Villa and Bardsley a Reserve at Man U, not Youth team? I imagine there'll be a huge difference in Salary between the two.

Well Bardsley was 22 when he came to us - had started 10 games for Man United. I'd say more youth - but obviously could be shown as a reserve. However a player who played 18 games for Man United being on a great deal.

Cahill was 21/22 when he was with us - having started 28 games for Villa and 3 sub appearances. Again whilst he may be deemed a 'reserve' player - I think the money he would have been on again would have been nowhere near as people are implying.

 

[Santos]

Halford was probably Blackwells best loan signing yet he couldn't break into the Sunderland or Reading sides when they were in the prem. I believe Halford to be a good CCC player who would struggle to keep putting in consistant displays in the top div!

Bit like Frazer Campbell then!

 

[Santos]

Don't 100% agree with that swiss, the reason that not many of robsons players are left is that blackwell wants his own team which he has made clear and has been past excuses.

and absolutely nothing to with the fact he's been forced to cut the wage bill?

Baloney.

 

[Robbie]

and absolutely nothing to with the fact he's been forced to cut the wage bill?

Baloney.

Agreed that he had cut the wage bill.

But he never used Hendrie and Carney. Beattie could fit into his long ball routine so carried on playing and McCabe sold on first opportunity.

 

[Santos]

Agreed that he had cut the wage bill.

But he never used Hendrie and Carney. Beattie could fit into his long ball routine so carried on playing and McCabe sold on first opportunity.

Naysmith? Speed? Ugo? I think he played Beattie cos he was our best striker at the club and scored shit loads!

I don't think Hendrie is pulling up any trees at Derby and haven't heard a peep since Carney left (although i can't remember where he went to, Norwich?).

He also signed a Robson loanee, Cotterill, if that isn't proof that he had no problem with the Robson players I don't know what is.

 

[SwissBlade]

Well Bardsley was 22 when he came to us - had started 10 games for Man United. I'd say more youth - but obviously could be shown as a reserve. However a player who played 18 games for Man United being on a great deal.

Cahill was 21/22 when he was with us - having started 28 games for Villa and 3 sub appearances. Again whilst he may be deemed a 'reserve' player - I think the money he would have been on again would have been nowhere near as people are implying.

Sorry Robbie, but there is a huge difference between a Youth Contract and a Professional Contract especially when you add on bonus'.

Add to that Cahill was an U21 player as well then his wages won't have been peanuts.

 

[Robbie]

Naysmith? Speed? Ugo? I think he played Beattie cos he was our best striker at the club and scored shit loads!

He also signed a Robson loanee, Cotterill, if that isn't proof that he had no problem with the Robson players I don't know what is.

I agree with beattie.

Ugo was given a chance after injuries paved the way for him - you couldn't really drop him when he started impressing. He was soon off the wage bill though as soon as we could - which was when his contract expired (accepted he was still injured).

Naysmith seems to fit in with the defensive long ball game that Blackwell likes to play, solid performer too. So will always keep his place.

Cotterill was an obvious choice after he impressed on loan. When he impressed we were playing good attacking football (most of the time) and no wonder Cotts wanted to join us. Now it would seem he wants out though. Unmderstandably so too. Cotts won't play long ball - so he doesn't stand much chance.

Speed, well how could you not play him? I know it looks like I am making excuses to suit my own arguement, but if he had dropped him and sold him I think there would have been some massive dis-approvement from the stands.

Carney and Hendrie liked to play football, much like cotts. It is no coincidence they have all found themselves on their way.

 

[Robbie]

Sorry Robbie, but there is a huge difference between a Youth Contract and a Professional Contract especially when you add on bonus'.

Add to that Cahill was an U21 player as well then his wages won't have been peanuts.

Let's have an example of a reserve player who has come through the ranks and could now be considered a 'reserve' team player at Villa.

Craig Gardener - played a few more games than Cahill had in his time at Villa.
Would you think that he is on anything more than 10k per week? I'd say no.
Could we subsidise half his wage? I'd say yes.

Same with Man United - Lets pick out Darron Gibson - again played a few more games than Bardsley had for Man United, roughly same age.
Will he be on any more than 8k a week? I'd say no.
Would we be able to afford half his wage? I'd say yes.

This is not an indication I think we should sign these. Just similar players for their times at respective clubs.

 

[super_pig]

no self respecting premiership manager is going to send players here for educational purposes
wenger.. so what did you learn on your loan spell
youth.. umm.. i have good neck muscles from watching the ball in the air and can now kick the ball a full 90 yards

what about the juniors.. why aren't they been given a go?

 

[Santos]

I agree with beattie.

Ugo was given a chance after injuries paved the way for him - you couldn't really drop him when he started impressing. He was soon off the wage bill though as soon as we could - which was when his contract expired (accepted he was still injured).

Naysmith seems to fit in with the defensive long ball game that Blackwell likes to play, solid performer too. So will always keep his place.

Cotterill was an obvious choice after he impressed on loan. When he impressed we were playing good attacking football (most of the time) and no wonder Cotts wanted to join us. Now it would seem he wants out though. Unmderstandably so too. Cotts won't play long ball - so he doesn't stand much chance.

Speed, well how could you not play him? I know it looks like I am making excuses to suit my own arguement, but if he had dropped him and sold him I think there would have been some massive dis-approvement from the stands.

Carney and Hendrie liked to play football, much like cotts. It is no coincidence they have all found themselves on their way.

Robbie, I think you prove my point for me regarding Ugo, Naysmith & Speed. Blackwell didn't drop them because they were playing well for the team. Absolutely no evidence whatsoever of wanting to get rid of the Robson players* cos they wern't his players which is what I think davepinder was suggesting.

Small point about Ugo - We didn't get him off the wage bill as soon as we could, Ugo was with us through two transfer windows (technically three but i won't count the one which we signed him in, jan 07) and with all these emergency loan deals and what not I don't think Blackwell was desperate to lose him. Ugo was a great player for us last season up until he was injured at Wolves on boxing day. He kept Morgan/Killa out of the team for a fair while.

*apart from losing their massive wages, but this wasn't/isn't Blackwell's call.

Hendrie showed bits and pieces last season to show he has the talent but they were too few and far between. How is he getting on at Derby? Has he played much? I don't know, but if i'm guessing I reckon he's not playing much at all, due to his fitness. Dunno where Carney went, probably having a BBQ in London ;-)

 

[SwissBlade]

no self respecting premiership manager is going to send players here for educational players..
wenger.. so what did you learn on your loan spell
youth.. umm.. i have good neck muscles from watching the ball in the air and can now kick the ball a full 90 yards

what about the juniors.. why aren't they been given a go?

Could there be an issue of logistics as well? For a long time we loaned our youngsters to local clubs like Chesterfield, Donny, Rotherham etc so that our coaches and scouts can keep checking their progress and we built relations with these clubs.

Now we generally tend to loan to Ferencvaros because we have our own coaches there. So perhaps Chesterfield, Donny and Rotherham are asking the same question on their forum (if they have one)

As for the 'Juniors', we have Wedgebury and Lowton that have returned, but seeing as though we wanted to gradually introduce our 3 million Striker then I guess these lads will also come in slowly.

Oh and the other promising youngster that would probably have started to break through is banged up for 3 years!

Santos, Ugo retired

 

[Fiery Blade]

Naysmith? Speed? Ugo? I think he played Beattie cos he was our best striker at the club and scored shit loads!

I don't think Hendrie is pulling up any trees at Derby and haven't heard a peep since Carney left (although i can't remember where he went to, Norwich?).

He also signed a Robson loanee, Cotterill, if that isn't proof that he had no problem with the Robson players I don't know what is.

Carney signed for FC Twente and is one of their top performers apparantly!

 

[DuncDisorderly]

Blackwell's reputation is certainly a contributing factor.

And your source for this sweeping statement is..?

 

[DuncDisorderly]

Carney signed for FC Twente and is one of their top performers apparantly!

Says a lot more about FC Twente than David Carney...