Round pegs, square holes

[LondonBlade89]

"Sometimes, it's just the right club for you," he explains. "Take when I was at Birmingham for example. I like to find little pockets of space and work in those, it's what I think is a strong point of my game. There, the manager kept telling me that wasn't my job and, fair enough, that's not how it worked there. He wanted me to stay out wide and make sure their full-backs didn't get forward."

This was a quote from Mark Duffy in a Sheffield Star article.

Birmingham obviously aren't the only club to do this. And I look back and think about players who disappointed when with us - like Leon Britton and Brian Howard - who were clearly good players, just poorly used.

I'd say one of the reasons why Wilder is getting the best out of everyone is that, pretty much to a man, we play to our player's strengths. Not just Duffy, but the RCB and LCB roles suit Bash and J'OC to a tee. Coutts looked poor before Wilder slotted him into the new system. And now it genuinely feels like when we sign players, we do it with their role in the team in mind. Long may it continue.

The question is ... why don't other managers do this? Of course sometimes players are forced on them. And that might have been the case with Duffy (I'm not sure). But you could argue guys like Britton and Howard were destined to fail.

Answers on a postcard.

 

[FriethBlade]

Short answer...too many other managers are too concerned about nullifying the effectiveness of the opposition when they are going forward. I think Wilder starts with the intention of maximising our effectiveness when going forward.

 

[sitwell]

I would say Brian Howard was clearly a poor player ,and a shirker and a coward. Apart from that I agree with you. Some managers have no flexibility and it has to be their way ,Kevin Blackwell. I knock about with an ex pro and he is on the same wavelength as you ,telling me that is the way to get much more out of your players ,contrasting Wilder and Mourinhos methods. He told me the most flexible and best man manager he ever played for was Allardyce ,players loved him.

 

[JackSUFC]

It’s crazy that Duffy started to hit his peak at the age he did.

Wasn’t it Funny Little Nige who first played him as a ‘10’ instead of a winger at Burton? Then he came here and developed the role even further. Maybe if he’d have been played in that role and developed there 10 years ago, he’d have had a career in the top flight.

I agree about certain players wasted under certain managers though. Leon Britton should have never come to us under Hoofwell. Wilder’s system would’ve played to his strengths perfectly though.

 

[steve26272]

Sometimes managers buy a player because they want ‘that’ player, not because he’s needed for the team. Prime example is Jorginho at Chelsea, Sarri wanted him as he knows him, but to accommodate him he’s pushed Kante out who now looks half the player,
With Britton it was similar situation, why anyone thought a 5”6’ ball playing midget would prosper in a team where a 60yd goal kick was seen by the manager as tippy tappy football is a mystery. Poor twat needed a neck brace by the time he left (to go onto be a class act a division above when deployed correctly)
What wilder does well is buy to enhance the team, not his reputation. Madine been perfect example, knew we needed a ‘big un’ who can go up top, identified his man, disregarding the fans opinion got him in.
Whether works or not time will tell, but fair play for been a real MANager.

 

[Nicolaus_Copernicus]

I would say Brian Howard was clearly a poor player ,and a shirker and a coward. Apart from that I agree with you. Some managers have no flexibility and it has to be their way ,Kevin Blackwell. I knock about with an ex pro and he is on the same wavelength as you ,telling me that is the way to get much more out of your players ,contrasting Wilder and Mourinhos methods. He told me the most flexible and best man manager he ever played for was Allardyce ,players loved him.

Good post. A serious point, Sits. Mourinho has won the lot, more than once. Is it a question of player ‘buy in’? And does that ‘buy in’ reduce the wealthier the player is or alter dependant on the nationality the player is? When a manager can’t implement his style and tactics on players, is the manager’s job being reduced to ego management? Eto’o and Pogba being two contrasting examples.

 

[Nicolaus_Copernicus]

.

 

[BerksBlade]

I would say Brian Howard was clearly a poor player ,and a shirker and a coward.

Howard was definitely over-rated. One decent season at Barnsley and a goal against Liverpool set him up for the rest of his career.

Some people even thought he stood comparison with the splay-footed genius himself...

After reported interest from clubs including Aston Villa, Middlesbrough, Everton, and Sheffield United, Barnsley's owner, Patrick Cryne, suggested Howard was a better player than Sheffield United's Michael Tonge, and if Tonge were valued at £3 to £4 million, then Howard would be worth £10m.

 

[LondonBlade89]

Good post. A serious point, Sits. Mourinho has won the lot, more than once. Is it a question of player ‘buy in’? And does that ‘buy in’ reduce the wealthier the player is or alter dependant on the nationality the player is? When a manager can’t implement his style and tactics on players, is the manager’s job being reduced to ego management? Eto’o and Pogba being two contrasting examples.

This obviously doesn't apply to all, and Kante is an obvious exception, but often it seems that when a player is so good, like best in the world good, being asked to do something which doesn't best suit their talents feels pretty alienating. "I'm the best in the world, I've won a world cup, and I'm being asked to play this role when it's clearly not what I'm best at? That's wrong". And at the highest level, they can probably go to any other club in the world and play the role they want. You can't do that if you're in the lower leagues.

Of course, these players are so good that they can still thrive in that new role they're being asked to play. And I guess this is how Mourinho does have success. Or had success at least.

 

[Fulwood Blade]

The question is ... why don't other managers do this?

There's a phrase - the cream rises to the top. Good managers and coaches for that matter rise to the top because they have talent and talent transfers to success (on the whole) with a football team. Good managers keep doing it where ever they go aka: Wilder. Sir Alex kept re-inventing different teams at Man U that were successful. Liverpool in their 60/70/80's did it with the "boot room" lot - was it 4 of them that simply took over the same model of doing things. These types are rare commodities, hence the Premier League is generally hiring foreign talent.

Wilder appears to have a decent management squad and it is said now that AK does the majority of the training and tactics. What is becoming clear with Wilder is that he was an average footballer but an excellent man-manager. For me this makes a much better success than having fantastic players who think they can be managers ie: Gerrard and Lampard spring to mind as the latest to try their arm.

From the past it was also interesting how our 2 World Cup winning brothers fared both on the pitch and then as managers - quite opposites.

Good managers recognise good players and what to do with them both on and off the pitch.

We have a once in a generation manager with CW - and possibly coach also with AK for that matter - just hope the two at the very top of our food chain realise that in the medium and long term and sort out their differences.

Anyone remember Charlton and the effect Curbishley had on that football club? Well, we have our own situation brewing here with this management team. One game at a time - Villa next up.

UTB

 

[maidmarion]

Managers do have a huge part to play. Look at Brian Clough....he always got the best out of his players .
Coutts has been mentioned in this thread....he was awful under our previous manager but I don't think it was because he was a bad player...I think he just didn't like either the manager or the system being played.
However, Basham.......he has put in 100% whatever manager we have had. Every team needs a Bashambaur.

 

[Roygbiv]

People often say Britton never had a chance with Blackwell as manager but he only actually played 2 games under him. He played most of his games under Gary Speed.

 

[sitwell]

Good post. A serious point, Sits. Mourinho has won the lot, more than once. Is it a question of player ‘buy in’? And does that ‘buy in’ reduce the wealthier the player is or alter dependant on the nationality the player is? When a manager can’t implement his style and tactics on players, is the manager’s job being reduced to ego management? Eto’o and Pogba being two contrasting examples.

My mate reckons virtually every professional player has issues ,egos ,personal problems ,addictions or just plain personality foibles. It is how the manager manages each player and if he can be bothered. I know Wilder uses Sharp and Coutts to his advantage as his senior pros for players to go to. Blackwell was a hopeless man manager as was Adams and the players took advantage despite it really not being in their interest to do so. Most players are very lazy away from football and have everything done for them ,my mate had to learn to be an adult when he retired at 38 as the clubs and his wife had done everything , even paying bills and sorting insurance and mortgage out etc. He still thinks its OK to have 5 or 6 rounds of golf a week ,and his work and social life have to adhere to this. I would say Wilder is very good at choosing players who 'buy in' to his way of thinking and it is playing off as most of his signings have become better for it. When a player doesn't buy in they have been swiftly moved on ,something which has not happened across the city and is much more difficult the higher and the more expensive you get ,hence Mourinhos problems ,he had some players who think they are bigger than him.

 

[sitwell]

Managers do have a huge part to play. Look at Brian Clough....he always got the best out of his players .
Coutts has been mentioned in this thread....he was awful under our previous manager but I don't think it was because he was a bad player...I think he just didn't like either the manager or the system being played.
However, Basham.......he has put in 100% whatever manager we have had. Every team needs a Bashambaur.

Coutts was never awful , he was just played in a position that was in direct contrast to his strengths and ability. He is a passer ,very good in tight situations and has great vision. To play out wide chasing up and down after a wing back was like playing Connor Washington at centre half. Adkins was a colossal shambles at Utd tactically and motivationally ,as were many of his predecessors. David fucking Weir ,Christ

 

[Billyblade]

Dowell is a round peg

 

[WORKSOPBLADE]

Next one to be a fit for us will be Hogan imo.

Lard arse, now across the city, didn’t utilise him like we will.

I’d expect and hope we’ve got a buy clause at a set fee if we want to buy him, budget/division dependent.

A successor to Billy( although a good while away yet hopefully) and possible partner too.

 

[Bergen Blade]

Coutts was never awful , he was just played in a position that was in direct contrast to his strengths and ability. He is a passer ,very good in tight situations and has great vision. To play out wide chasing up and down after a wing back was like playing Connor Washington at centre half. Adkins was a colossal shambles at Utd tactically and motivationally ,as were many of his predecessors. David fucking Weir ,Christ

Coutts' fitness and work rate improved massively after Wilder arrived, possibly influenced by the decision to transfer list him.

 

[PokerBlade]

No manager buys a player thinking that player can't do what he wants them to. A lot of the time it's about taking a player with certain attributes and trying to get them to fit the role you have in mind. Sometimes that doesn't work out, sometimes you find a player like Duffy who's been overlooked by other clubs fits perfectly into your system.

I think Leon's a good example. A lot of teams have looked at him to use as a target man and, while he's a six footer, strong, decent in the air, that's really not his game.

If you look at Wilder, and how he's taken us from 11th in League One to 3rd in the Championship in a few windows, look at the gradual progression of the squad, on the budget he's had, you'd have to say that right now there probably isn't another manager doing much better if at all. Even with Wilder's fantastic record you still have a list of the likes of: Heneghan, Thomas, Leonard, Holmes, and so on that haven't been able to make it in his side.

The reality is that not every signing a manager makes will work out. They won't always live up to their potential, they won't always be able to adapt to what you want of them. It's not about never making a wrong decision, it's about making enough good ones to outweigh them.

 

[Beans]

Dowell is a round peg

Outstanding

 

[Sheff de party]

Agree with many of the points above, but I’d add it depends how good you are. If Bash said “stick me up top gaffer and I’ll notch a hatful” he’d obviously still be at centre half. But for someone like Duffy or Norwood, they’re very good at the roles they play and probably the best two players in our first team.

It’s worth finding out what their strengths are and playing to them, rather than have a rigid system and trying to get players to play to it. I suppose Norwood might be an exception if Wilder felt he had all the players he needed and needed someone to spray it from side to side, therefore bought Norwood.

But if you’re one of the best players basically, the team should at least partially play to your strengths, e.g were more direct against Norwich because Madine was playing.

 

[sitwell]

Coutts' fitness and work rate improved massively after Wilder arrived, possibly influenced by the decision to transfer list him.

More likely to be playing him to his strengths in the correct position both for him and the team. Plus he was recovering from a bad injury .Having respect for his boss could also be a huge factor.

 

[Sheffsteel]

A great example of playing to a players strength and making them perform better than their ability is CHRIS BASHAM.
I seriously believe CB is at best, a good league 1 standard central defender and a good league 1 standard central midfielder.

So what does Wilder do with a player that’s not good enough at Championship level?
He realises that Basham’s strength is he has a great engine, great battling spirit and is very versatile, can play midfield or defence.

So he puts him in a defence with 3 centre backs, this helps cover his deficiencies when defending as he has help next to him.
Then he encourages him to get forward as much as possible to create a spare man in midfield.
Basham wouldn’t be good enough in the CC but when he’s a spare man he’s difficult to pick up and mark.
Wilder also tells Basham, keep it simple and pass the ball to the better players around you, like Norwood or Duffy.

The end result is that in our team and formation the limited Basham plays a really important and valuable role in making us perform to a high quality level.

 

[shorehamview]

Wilder and Knill put footballers in footballer shaped holes. They make it look easy - that's the true art.

 

[BushBlade]

I think in modern football you can broadly categorise managers as either idealists or pragmatists.

Idealists are like Pep, Poch, Klopp etc. They have a way of playing, what is often called a ‘philosophy’. They don’t deviate from the basics of this. They join a club, set the team up to play their way and see which players can do it and which can’t. Then they replace those that can’t with those that can.

To do this, the manager has to be given time and money. The less money, the more time. In the short term they will put results behind getting the performances right. They won’t start adapting what they do to suit players.

Pragmatists are less bothered about style of play. They focus on results. They’re often adept at changing what they do to suit the players they inherit in a new job. These managers are often more suited to smaller clubs with less money, who can’t afford to invest millions in the manager’s ‘project’.

Some managers like big squads with cover for every position. Others prefer small squads, as they believe it’s easier to develop a strong team spirit and would rather play a regular first teamer slightly out of position than avoid doing so by having a larger squad.

Football management isn’t particularly scientific, because you’re dealing with humans, not machines, with complex relationships between them, on and off the field. There’s no set way of doing it.

The job of a chairman is to understand the needs of his/her club and pick a manager that fits. Can the club afford to make sweeping changes to the playing staff? If not, will the supporters be patient while a manager is building a team? What do the supporters really want, success or good football? Etc.

 

[Fulwood Blade]

A great example of playing to a players strength and making them perform better than their ability is CHRIS BASHAM.
I seriously believe CB is at best, a good league 1 standard central defender and a good league 1 standard central midfielder.

So what does Wilder do with a player that’s not good enough at Championship level?
He realises that Basham’s strength is he has a great engine, great battling spirit and is very versatile, can play midfield or defence.

So he puts him in a defence with 3 centre backs, this helps cover his deficiencies when defending as he has help next to him.
Then he encourages him to get forward as much as possible to create a spare man in midfield.
Basham wouldn’t be good enough in the CC but when he’s a spare man he’s difficult to pick up and mark.
Wilder also tells Basham, keep it simple and pass the ball to the better players around you, like Norwood or Duffy.

The end result is that in our team and formation the limited Basham plays a really important and valuable role in making us perform to a high quality level.

Here's a little game following your post - where in the EFL is the Basham replacement?

It was very interesting that in danny04's book - Bash was up for overlapping centre backs immediately where as JOC took a bit of convincing. Even now, nearly 2+ years latter - Bash is far more comfortable than JOC in doing the role.

To carry on playing our special 3-4-1-2 - we need overlapping players. Where's Bash Mk2?

UTB

 

[BushBlade]

Here's a little game following your post - where in the EFL is the Basham replacement?

It was very interesting that in danny04's book - Bash was up for overlapping centre backs immediately where as JOC took a bit of convincing. Even now, nearly 2+ years latter - Bash is far more comfortable than JOC in doing the role.

To carry on playing our special 3-4-1-2 - we need overlapping players. Where's Bash Mk2?

UTB

I saw Bartley do it last night.

 

[Fulwood Blade]

I saw Bartley do it last night.

he'd probably be on a fair wage at WBA - but would he come?

Question is (in a way): would we need an upgrade for Bash if we went up and continued playing the same way?

A similar question came up recently (about promotion) - could we get away with the way we play or would CW/AK have to tweak it or even go to a defence of 4.

UTB

 

[BushBlade]

he'd probably be on a fair wage at WBA - but would he come?

Question is (in a way): would we need an upgrade for Bash if we went up and continued playing the same way?

A similar question came up recently (about promotion) - could we get away with the way we play or would CW/AK have to tweak it or even go to a defence of 4.

UTB

I didn’t think we’d get away with it in this league tbh.

 

[Fulwood Blade]

I didn’t think we’d get away with it in this league tbh.

right - so seeing as it is working now - could it work further up?

From what Bielsa quoted recently - he seems to think overlapping centre backs are ok, but can't reproduce it or doesn't want to.

It's certainly unique the way we do it.

UTB

 

[LondonBlade89]

he'd probably be on a fair wage at WBA - but would he come?

Question is (in a way): would we need an upgrade for Bash if we went up and continued playing the same way?

A similar question came up recently (about promotion) - could we get away with the way we play or would CW/AK have to tweak it or even go to a defence of 4.

UTB

It's a really interesting question. I feel fairly strongly that we should stick to our current system. Partly because it's the best system for this group - and we don't have the money for a big system change towards a more 'safer' way of playing - and partly because I just want to see us try it in the Premier League. And my answer to the question of whether we'd need a replacement for Bash is 'no'. Bash feels like one of those players - like a Harry Arter at Bournemouth - who is able to make the step-up despite perhaps being a lesser player than his peers.