Playing it out from the back

[Trafford]

In the early stages of yesterday’s game Basham was collecting the ball, charging up the middle of the pitch and causing all sorts of problems. It looked like Leeds didn’t have anybody with pace in the middle of the pitch and they were there for the taking. Then they either sussed us out or Bashwell stopped collecting the ball, leaving Egan to do it instead, and everything became very slow and predictable - he’s a better defender than Bash but clearly not suited to taking the ball forward. By the 2nd half Leeds were quite happy to let Egan have the ball unchallenged, they had realised that he wasn’t a threat and they could double up elsewhere.

Question is - why didn’t we adapt in the same way that they did, we just kept on doing the same thing over and over again in the false hope that it would produce a different outcome.

 

[Davalon]

Their tactics were spot on which you'd expect from someone like Bielsa.

We still had the opportunity to get the points but their pressing meant we constantly passed it back to Hendo.

 

[Houston_Blade]

It’s not that difficult to stop us playing. You stop us playing out from that back and that’s it, the only thing is you need to play a high pressing game. Leeds only did this for portions of the game.

The other way to stop us is “a la pig” where you put 10 outfield players in the defensive third of the pitch. Either are apparently effective.

 

[Topplayersleave]

A high pressing game from the opponents should give players like Duffy more room, it's a pity he didn't seem to be at it yesterday.

Good teams find a way around problems, otherwise every team in world football could be nullified by using a certain tactic against them

 

[NotFallowfieldBlade]

A high pressing game from the opponents should give players like Duffy more room, it's a pity he didn't seem to be at it yesterday.

Good teams find a way around problems, otherwise every team in world football could be nullified by using a certain tactic against them

Yeah but while point of pressing means players like Duffy have no time on the ball and you can’t get the ball to him

 

[Topplayersleave]

Yeah but while point of pressing means players like Duffy have no time on the ball and you can’t get the ball to him

Yep, that's the point of it
Good teams find a way around problems and good players find space behind pressing teams.

 

[nopigfansintown]

Games aren't always won or lost by tactical superiority. Bielsa didn't come to the Lane with the hope of surrendering that much territory.Its anathema to him. I'd give Rotherham and Stoke a lot more credit than Leeds for their tactical setup. Tactics are there to give you the opportunity to win a match; they can't do it for you.

 

[Guesty]

Games aren't always won or lost by tactical superiority. Bielsa didn't come to the Lane with the hope of surrendering that much territory.Its anathema to him. I'd give Rotherham and Stoke a lot more credit than Leeds for their tactical setup. Tactics are there to give you the opportunity to win a match; they can't do it for you.

Birmingham did a really good job on us too, albeit they carried no threat coming forward.

 

[nopigfansintown]

Birmingham did a really good job on us too, albeit they carried no threat coming forward.

Yes, hard game to judge though with the volume of changes United made and the lack of cohesion we had.

 

[benn5712]

Duffs was closed down as soon as he went into their half, same player, on a man marking job. Duffs couldn't shake him off.
Yes Bash was making forward runs into the spaces but we weren't dangerous enough. Egan started doing the same, with Norwood being further back than Egan. JF had a quiet day.
Chances to have a shot or two from distance again but we don't, won't, can't (?) Saw pigs goal from Blackbum. Proper strike !
Blades looked either a bit tired or out of ideas 70 minutes in.
Need to mix things a bit. We will get there...someday
UTB

 

[Cjay]

Think the tactical things from Bielsa were subtle.

Swapping Roofe and Hernandez, allowing certain players to have time on the ball but others like Duffy and Norwood were man marked.

Even Basham was man marked by Alioski at times, Ali was left back stood next to Barry Douglas when Basham went forward.

Roofe tracking back and tackling O'Connell i think it was 2nd half.

There's a bit of a myth that Blesa sides always dominate possession, they dont.

Occasionally he will set his sides up to concede possession in less threatening areas.

Most famous example is Vs Barcelona in 2011, Llorente was left alone to press the Barcelona back line in there half, nobody joined him.

What the Bilbao midfield and defence did do was a man marking job in play on all Barces key players, if Messi dropped deep to get the ball someone followed, if Iniesta dropped deep someone followed, Xavi the same. Not always the same player but at all times Barcelona's key players were man marked while Bilbao conceded possession.

It was to this day one of the best tactical displays against the best club side of the last 20 years, think it was that game that promoted Pep to call Bielsa "the best in the world".

Did similar in the Europa League 2nd leg vs Manchester United.

Think what Bielsa did yesterday was nullify the best he could your key players, while sacrificing territory and possession to less threatening players.

One thing that does frustrate Bielsa is teams who simply dont want to compete, they have no interest in a football match if that makes sense, they just want to win freekicks and corners and sit back. So I'm sure he will have a greater level of respect for Wilder then most of our opponents this season and that showed in his tactical approach imo.

 

[SUFC Guy]

It’s not that difficult to stop us playing. You stop us playing out from that back and that’s it, the only thing is you need to play a high pressing game. Leeds only did this for portions of the game.

The other way to stop us is “a la pig” where you put 10 outfield players in the defensive third of the pitch. Either are apparently effective.

I think the terminology you're after is "Pork the bus "

 

[Houston_Blade]

Yep, that's the point of it
Good teams find a way around problems and good players find space behind pressing teams.

To suggest that none of our players are “good” is a bit ridiculous.

 

[Houston_Blade]

Think the tactical things from Bielsa were subtle.

Swapping Roofe and Hernandez, allowing certain players to have time on the ball but others like Duffy and Norwood were man marked.

Even Basham was man marked by Alioski at times, Ali was left back stood next to Barry Douglas when Basham went forward.

Roofe tracking back and tackling O'Connell i think it was 2nd half.

There's a bit of a myth that Blesa sides always dominate possession, they dont.

Occasionally he will set his sides up to concede possession in less threatening areas.

Most famous example is Vs Barcelona in 2011, Llorente was left alone to press the Barcelona back line in there half, nobody joined him.

What the Bilbao midfield and defence did do was a man marking job in play on all Barces key players, if Messi dropped deep to get the ball someone followed, if Iniesta dropped deep someone followed, Xavi the same. Not always the same player but at all times Barcelona's key players were man marked while Bilbao conceded possession.

It was to this day one of the best tactical displays against the best club side of the last 20 years, think it was that game that promoted Pep to call Bielsa "the best in the world".

Did similar in the Europa League 2nd leg vs Manchester United.

Think what Bielsa did yesterday was nullify the best he could your key players, while sacrificing territory and possession to less threatening players.

One thing that does frustrate Bielsa is teams who simply dont want to compete, they have no interest in a football match if that makes sense, they just want to win freekicks and corners and sit back. So I'm sure he will have a greater level of respect for Wilder then most of our opponents this season and that showed in his tactical approach imo.

Pig levels of delusion here. So your manager is now the best manager in the world?! I’ve heard it all now. He looked like he was squatting for a shit for 60 mins yesterday, I think he’s got Farmer Giles though as he was wincing a bit.

 

[Cjay]

Pig levels of delusion here. So your manager is now the best manager in the world?! I’ve heard it all now. He looked like he was squatting for a shit for 60 mins yesterday, I think he’s got Farmer Giles though as he was wincing a bit.

Erm i didnt call him the best in the world, i was quoting Pep Guardiola . . . . .

 

[BettingBlade]

One of Wilders few faults is that he seems to lack the ability to make those subtle changes that alter the game in our favour. The only way we really try and change things is through substitutions and while it may be fresh legs it doesn’t really give the opposition anything else to think about.

Other than after the horrible start in his first season when we first when to a back 3, I can’t actually remember that many times where we have altered from that system. The way we play is often the same. where we try to press and dominate possession and hope we can break through. When teams nullify that, and it really isn’t that difficult, we really struggle to get our noses in front.

A lot of our game also seems to depend on playing the ball round, occasionally sticking in a cross in the hope that something will drop for us rather than really having the technical ability to unlock a defence. We’ve seen it in glimpses from Fleck, Norwood and Duffy but I don’t think we’ve created enough of those key game changing moments in certain games this season.

 

[Topplayersleave]

To suggest that none of our players are “good” is a bit ridiculous.

I didn't
But they're not good enough to beat the better teams in this division

 

[BerksBlade]

Other than after the horrible start in his first season when we first when to a back 3, I can’t actually remember that many times where we have altered from that system. The way we play is often the same. where we try to press and dominate possession and hope we can break through. When teams nullify that, and it really isn’t that difficult, we really struggle to get our noses in front.

We have switched to a back 4 quite a few times - this normally means pushing Bash into midfield.
I thought when Norwood arrived it would give Fleck licence to drive forward a lot more. Doesn't seem to have happened.

 

[Houston_Blade]

Erm i didnt call him the best in the world, i was quoting Pep Guardiola . . . . .

I was joking , Pep knows fuck all though, ask Zlatan.

 

[Rob86]

Nothing wrong with it, we do it quite well generally and Leeds closed down Bash and JOC running with it. Bielsa said it himself.

We were pressed quickly but with that kind of system, if you take a player on, your through attacking the back 4. Unfortunately we never beat the midfielder, except for McGoldrick for the cross for Sharps header.

Basically we need Messi and Aguero and we’d make the top 2

 

[Clatter]

Think the tactical things from Bielsa were subtle.

Swapping Roofe and Hernandez, allowing certain players to have time on the ball but others like Duffy and Norwood were man marked.

Even Basham was man marked by Alioski at times, Ali was left back stood next to Barry Douglas when Basham went forward.

Roofe tracking back and tackling O'Connell i think it was 2nd half.

There's a bit of a myth that Blesa sides always dominate possession, they dont.

Occasionally he will set his sides up to concede possession in less threatening areas.

Most famous example is Vs Barcelona in 2011, Llorente was left alone to press the Barcelona back line in there half, nobody joined him.

What the Bilbao midfield and defence did do was a man marking job in play on all Barces key players, if Messi dropped deep to get the ball someone followed, if Iniesta dropped deep someone followed, Xavi the same. Not always the same player but at all times Barcelona's key players were man marked while Bilbao conceded possession.

It was to this day one of the best tactical displays against the best club side of the last 20 years, think it was that game that promoted Pep to call Bielsa "the best in the world".

Did similar in the Europa League 2nd leg vs Manchester United.

Think what Bielsa did yesterday was nullify the best he could your key players, while sacrificing territory and possession to less threatening players.

One thing that does frustrate Bielsa is teams who simply dont want to compete, they have no interest in a football match if that makes sense, they just want to win freekicks and corners and sit back. So I'm sure he will have a greater level of respect for Wilder then most of our opponents this season and that showed in his tactical approach imo.

Spot on

 

[CarlMcBlade]

I would change the thread title to........ Pissing about at the back?
As good as they are, I would say a good 70% of our possession is defenders passing it to defenders .......and back again........and again.
As someone who can’t watch Bassett and Warnock era videos anymore because of what Charisse has brought to the lane. I must say that sometimes we do over-pass the ball, especially at the back.

 

[blade67]

I would change the thread title to........ Pissing about at the back?
As good as they are, I would say a good 70% of our possession is defenders passing it to defenders .......and back again........and again.
As someone who can’t watch Bassett and Warnock era videos anymore because of what Charisse has brought to the lane. I must say that sometimes we do over-pass the ball, especially at the back.

We only over passed it yesterday because Leeds offered us no options going forward. Everyone might try the same tactics but it's likely we'd pick off most teams in this league. Leeds are just good

 

[John Street West Terrace]

The key to countering a team thats playing a high press game is variation in your play , by either playing into a target man every once in a while and midfield runners playing of him . It’s nothing new to us we had in division below and Hanson provided that outlet / option said before someone like Matt Smith at QPR gives you that option.
Other is to put the ball into the channels behind the full backs but you need pace to exploit that , that’s how Fulham turned us over last season at The The Lane with Sessignon & Ojo .
We play a good brand of football a nice passing game but a lot is at the same tempo & in front of the oppositions back two lines making us a little predictable at times .
We need to vary this stretch the game more making the opposition a bit less keen to pushing .
There’s a big difference between a long pass and a an aimless lump upfield & all the successful teams have some pace up top

 

[Revolution]

One of Wilders few faults is that he seems to lack the ability to make those subtle changes that alter the game in our favour. The only way we really try and change things is through substitutions and while it may be fresh legs it doesn’t really give the opposition anything else to think about.

Other than after the horrible start in his first season when we first when to a back 3, I can’t actually remember that many times where we have altered from that system. The way we play is often the same. where we try to press and dominate possession and hope we can break through. When teams nullify that, and it really isn’t that difficult, we really struggle to get our noses in front.

A lot of our game also seems to depend on playing the ball round, occasionally sticking in a cross in the hope that something will drop for us rather than really having the technical ability to unlock a defence. We’ve seen it in glimpses from Fleck, Norwood and Duffy but I don’t think we’ve created enough of those key game changing moments in certain games this season.

Wilder is, I think, at his best in preparing for a game. He is not as strong in reacting to what happens during the game itself.

 

[Weasel]

The key to countering a team thats playing a high press game is variation in your play , by either playing into a target man every once in a while and midfield runners playing of him . It’s nothing new to us we had in division below and Hanson provided that outlet / option said before someone like Matt Smith at QPR gives you that option.
Other is to put the ball into the channels behind the full backs but you need pace to exploit that , that’s how Fulham turned us over last season at The The Lane with Sessignon & Ojo .
We play a good brand of football a nice passing game but a lot is at the same tempo & in front of the oppositions back two lines making us a little predictable at times .
We need to vary this stretch the game more making the opposition a bit less keen to pushing .
There’s a big difference between a long pass and a an aimless lump upfield & all the successful teams have some pace up top

Exactly. There's absolutely nothing wrong with a plan B when an A is clearly not working on the day. By all means stick with the footballing philosophy after all its what got us where we are, but don't be afraid to change it round and give the opposition something else to think about. If that's putting on wingers and getting the ball out wide, or playing a big lad up top to feed others and we longer than normal (playing to the big lad and not an hopeless punt upfield) or having pace upfront and playing into channels (thos only works though when the opposition have moved out of their half and aren't swamping their own half). Just be prepared to mix it up a bit more. The great Man Utd sides under Fergie could play any number of ways and that's what made them so bloody lethal.

Total football...tick, but on the break with pace....tick...playing with wingers and using the width of the pitch...tick, aging it long to Sheringham to feed Cole.....tick.

We need to have a plan B and a plan c in our locker even if plan A is what we should always start with.

 

[rsg26]

Their tactics were spot on which you'd expect from someone like Bielsa.

We still had the opportunity to get the points but their pressing meant we constantly passed it back to Hendo.

Totally agree here, great tactics

Nothing wrong with it, we do it quite well generally and Leeds closed down Bash and JOC running with it. Bielsa said it himself.

We were pressed quickly but with that kind of system, if you take a player on, your through attacking the back 4. Unfortunately we never beat the midfielder, except for McGoldrick for the cross for Sharps header.

Basically we need Messi and Aguero and we’d make the top 2

Whos needs Aguero when we have McGoldrick