SUFC and Harvard link-up

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

There's a 2-page article in today's Star (pp. 28-9) which I found interesting, but difficult to know how positive it is. Former director Tareq Hawasli has apparently used his Harvard links to gain Utd free access to their sports number-crunchers, and the stats regarding our players' fitness, performance, etc. are being fed daily into their computers, with a view to helping United's decision-makers. It is designed to improve squad performance, progression of youngsters through age-groups, and potentially assessment of transfer targets. Apparently many Premier League teams are paying for the privilege.
In many ways, it sounds good, and fits in with the view of Wilder and his team combining old-fashioned virtues with new-fangled science. But part of me thinks it could all be mumbo-jumbo, particularly as in traditional Blades' fashion, we are getting something for nothing. As I say, a different and interesting read for the international break.

 

[LoughboroBlade]

Here’s the piece: https://www.thestar.co.uk/sport/she...ip-club-an-edge-over-its-rivals-1-9452107/amp

Interesting article till the ridiculously unnecessary United/Harvard timeline at the end.

 

[SwissBlade]

If it’s how you describe it HodgysBrokenThumb its something which is already done to an extent and the statistical dats collection is done by the likes of opta.

However, The benefit could potentially come from the analysis of that data at Harvard. Particularly the recruitment side where we still need to take some risks. If we can make those more calculated and keep our costs lower, but then make money on sales then it’s a clear benefit

The problem could also come from this link up that too much reliance is put on this aspect.

What we currently have with Wilder at the helm is a balance which is working on the pitch.

 

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

If it’s how you describe it HodgysBrokenThumb .

The number of times I did a précis preparing for English O-level, it bloody well should be accurate! I realise these stats are already collected, but it is presumably the presence of experts in Harvard and their access to masses of data that could provide a competitive advantage. Unless, of course, everyone else is at it as well...

 

[Sean Thornton]

The start of the HRH team charm offensive?

 

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

The start of the HRH team charm offensive?

Charm offensive...or something genuinely useful? I am firmly on the fence...

 

[SwissBlade]

The number of times I did a précis preparing for English O-level, it bloody well should be accurate! I realise these stats are already collected, but it is presumably the presence of experts in Harvard and their access to masses of data that could provide a competitive advantage. Unless, of course, everyone else is at it as well...

Sorry I wasnt questionning what you wrote, but more where it came from.

I think everyone else is at it to some extent. Last time we played Brentford I was told that they’d built their recruitment on this sort of thing, but again, it’s about how the analysis is done.

You’d think that Harvard are working with a number of clubs and across a number of sports and getting paid well to do their work. But the key will be how we use it

 

[Yellarbellyblade]

I’m all for us looking at things like this. We have limited funds so it’s vital we maximise the players we have and if it also helps us identify players to bring in who are slightly below the radar and as a consequence are in our price range that’s an added bonus. It does depend on how we manage to make the most of the data though.

 

[northsomersetblade]

The start of the HRH team charm offensive?

So cynical

 

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

Sorry I wasnt questionning what you wrote, but more where it came from.

I think everyone else is at it to some extent. Last time we played Brentford I was told that they’d built their recruitment on this sort of thing, but again, it’s about how the analysis is done.

You’d think that Harvard are working with a number of clubs and across a number of sports and getting paid well to do their work. But the key will be how we use it

Apologies - it was just a joke about the précis. I didn't used to do them at school after a couple of glasses of whisky...
It doesn't make clear how long we get it for free.

 

[Cerberus Blade]

What does it give us that we don’t already know? And why is he doing it?

If I knew the answer to those two questions I might even be mildly impressed.

As it stands, I’m more suspicious than impressed and think it’s an unnecessary political piece of gamesmanship to shore up the Prince’s side in the forthcoming legal battle.

 

[Sean Thornton]

So cynical

I'd say that was my middle name but most think it's ****.

 

[JohnDenver]

Blades Analytics will be like a child on Christmas morning.

 

[Tom Bott]

But the key will be how we use it

Or how WELL we use it.

The world is full of data.

Just look at how The Star 'uses' it..

 

[Pollingtonblade]

The problem with data is it still relies on how the human uses it, sorry, how they interpret it.

 

[moDtheGod]

but then make money on sales then it’s a clear benefit

You say that, but then folk will moan that we are a selling club

The Brentford model is not only about picking up underrated players on the cheap (everyone loves this aspect) but also selling them at the point they become overvalued (the bit that we conveniently overlook). If that means selling last season't top scorer because he's valued at X by the stats, and a team wants to offer X+Y, then he's off, regardless. That's the model.

I agree that it's a "clear benefit" to the club. But it's not necessarily to the team.

 

[Whiston Blade]

Moneyball.

 

[SwissBlade]

You say that, but then folk will moan that we are a selling club

The Brentford model is not only about picking up underrated players on the cheap (everyone loves this aspect) but also selling them at the point they become overvalued (the bit that we conveniently overlook). If that means selling last season't top scorer because he's valued at X by the stats, and a team wants to offer X+Y, then he's off, regardless. That's the model.

I agree that it's a "clear benefit" to the club. But it's not necessarily to the team.

I don’t think it’s always about selling when they’re overvalued, but selling when a player is at a certain value. For it to work it depends on a couple of things:

- The club is able to move forward because we’re getting players which can improve the squad on the back of or because we’ve made the sales i.e we can bring more players in as wages or positions have been freed up

- The managed backs it i.e he believes that he can recruit or has players to fill the void with little detriment to the squad

For me, whilst we could’ve got more for Brooks in a year or two, losing him didn’t weaken the team.

Our model currently seems to work off a set value for a player, but then we also have a confidence that the player sold will be resold to a richer club and this is where the sell on clause comes in.

 

[Houston_Blade]

When the Blades go down the Moneyball route I'm done.

 

[Revolution]

When the Blades go down the Moneyball route I'm done.

We already have one thing in common with Oakland - we always lose in the playoffs.

And to the extent Moneyball means anything as a term, it means finding value in players who were undervalued. Duffy and Fleck are classic examples of such a strategy. Dave Bassett built his first promotion team in the same way.

 

[Houston_Blade]

We already have one thing in common with Oakland - we always lose in the playoffs.

And to the extent Moneyball means anything as a term, it means finding value in players who were undervalued. Duffy and Fleck are classic examples of such a strategy. Dave Bassett built his first promotion team in the same way.

The moneyball model is using stats to recruit players and to pick the side. This is when the art of management is lost and a spreadsheet takes over.

The best example I can think of is when Sharp leaves, we replaced him with 3 strikers capable of 6 goals per season each, rather than buying a decent striker. It doesn't work in football the same as it does in baseball as it's a fluid game.

 

[Worksop II]

The start of the HRH team charm offensive?

Not sure how that matches up to Copthorne Rallies with Disenfranchised Shareholders and letters about Flats

 

[blade too long]

Americans are obsessed with stats
dont mind baseball but continual references to his 0.33 ratio
it takes away from the game for me , he either hits a ball or he misses
Same with football possession stats, we know when we are on top , do we really need to know we had 76 percent possession in the last 10 minutes
Its no longer good enough to play well , we have to achieve good numbers for the stat sheets

Football is no more entertaining than its ever been, stats have not improved it
still the only stat that matters is the number after the club name on the result board
so long as its bigger than the oppositions

 

[Revolution]

The moneyball model is using stats to recruit players and to pick the side. This is when the art of management is lost and a spreadsheet takes over.

The best example I can think of is when Sharp leaves, we replaced him with 3 strikers capable of 6 goals per season each, rather than buying a decent striker. It doesn't work in football the same as it does in baseball as it's a fluid game.

That's one way "Moneyball" is used. Its wider meaning is looking for value in things that are undervalued. That's the way Michael Lewis puts it in the book.

 

[Houston_Blade]

That's one way "Moneyball" is used. Its wider meaning is looking for value in things that are undervalued. That's the way Michael Lewis puts it in the book.

Fair enough, I read the book a good few years ago. I am referring of course to the management through stats rather than real management. When we start doing this I've done.

 

[I should coco]

The start of the HRH team charm offensive?

Yes.

They will shortly be inviting all dissenters into their embassy in Istanbul to 'discuss things further'.

 

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

Americans are obsessed with stats
dont mind baseball but continual references to his 0.33 ratio
it takes away from the game for me , he either hits a ball or he misses
Same with football possession stats, we know when we are on top , do we really need to know we had 76 percent possession in the last 10 minutes
Its no longer good enough to play well , we have to achieve good numbers for the stat sheets

Football is no more entertaining than its ever been, stats have not improved it
still the only stat that matters is the number after the club name on the result board
so long as its bigger than the oppositions

I suspect the stats are here to stay. I always felt they were an integral part of cricket, which has stop-start as part of its structure. Filling in the score-card was a natural part of the enjoyment of a day's cricket. Football should flow with as little interruption as possible (even against Norwich), and while watching the game the stats don't matter to the paying public. They become a way of filling TV hours, of confirming our impressions of the game afterwards, and a source of information to the professionals. But I have no interest in them while watching the game.

 

[Worksop II]

Yes.

They will shortly be inviting all dissenters into their embassy in Istanbul to 'discuss things further'.

Lets hope it's on the Red Button .......

 

[Killamarshblades]

This actually takes place all the time at majority of clubs that can afford analysts, us being one. Stats / data is used in every signing we make (more than just possession, its all about number of runs at certain speeds for length of time, Heart rate recovery, positive passes rather than negative could go on and on) and the management team rely on the analysts to help guide them into who is worth more looking at than not. In a set up like United, Wilder has final say on if he likes the player or not, but stats and data analytics play a huge role already at United

 

[blade too long]

I suspect the stats are here to stay. I always felt they were an integral part of cricket, which has stop-start as part of its structure. Filling in the score-card was a natural part of the enjoyment of a day's cricket. Football should flow with as little interruption as possible (even against Norwich), and while watching the game the stats don't matter to the paying public. They become a way of filling TV hours, of confirming our impressions of the game afterwards, and a source of information to the professionals. But I have no interest in them while watching the game.

well you have to have stats in cricket , 40 wickets and could be over a 1000 runs and 250 overs
and it fills in the large gaps in play changing ends, and no 40 minute lunch and 25 minute tea breaks in football

whereas theres only average of 3 goals in most football matches