Wilders article in the Sun

[blademark]

Famous top player walks into management job whilst relative unknown ex pro starts at the bottom. This has happened in football forever.

Look at Guardiola, hailed as a managerial genius but he's only ever been handed the jobs at Barcelona, Bayern and City. Anybody on here could have won trophies with them, but I bet he'd do fuck all at Chesterfield.

Brian do you seriously believe what you just said ? That anyone on here would have won trophies with Peps teams ?
Why does any club bother paying millions for a Manager if all you need is good players ? Think Man Utd before Fergie and Man Utd after Fergie.

 

[GreasyChipBeattie]

An alternative view as to whether CW gives a sh*t about Frank Lampard or any other manager come to that (About 60 secs in)

 

[BushBlade]

Football is one of the least meritocratic professions in existence, it's nepotistic in the extreme.

His job is to motivate the players and keep their egos in check. He surrounds himself with a back room team to work out the nitty gritty, and he sprinkles sugar on it to make it acceptable to the players. He's never been in a position to be really tested, and has had the comfort of either world class players or billions of pounds to act as a safety net for any shortcomings.

He should be described as a very good 'big club manager', as opposed to the best manager in the world.

It’s a results driven industry, if you get results you succeed, if you don’t you fail. Plenty of managers have had similar resources to Guardiola and not all have succeeded.

I haven’t called him ‘best manager in the world’. ‘Best’ is a very subjective term and not really quantifiable.

 

[Nicolaus_Copernicus]

Brian do you seriously believe what you just said ? That anyone on here would have won trophies with Peps teams ?
Why does any club bother paying millions for a Manager if all you need is good players ? Think Man Utd before Fergie and Man Utd after Fergie.

Before Pep, Frank Rijkaard won La Liga twice, and the Champions League. Tito Vilanova won La Liga the season after Pep left. The next season Gerardo Martino finished 2nd in La Liga and won the Cup & Super Cup. Luis Enrique then won La Liga twice, Champions League, Cup thrice and Super Cup once. I wouldn't class any of those managers as top table, and yet they all won plenty with Barca. The least successful, Martino, who is viewed as out of his depth and being brought in to please Messi, had a win ratio of 68%.

 

[Nicolaus_Copernicus]

It’s a results driven industry, if you get results you succeed, if you don’t you fail. Plenty of managers have had similar resources to Guardiola and not all have succeeded.

I haven’t called him ‘best manager in the world’. ‘Best’ is a very subjective term and not really quantifiable.

How is Alex McLeish still earning a wage in professional football if its results based?

Which other manager has ever spent £130m of 3 full backs?

 

[davidblade]

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Not labouring the point are we

 

[Chali 2na]

No, he probably wouldn’t. But he’d do well enough to get a better job and work his way up until he was at a club where he could do.

Despite you presenting it as fact, that's guesswork.

Its educated guesswork, that I'd probably go along with, but far from a certainty.

And even if that wasn’t the case, so what? The hypothetical theory that he couldn’t manage a lower league club doesn’t detract from what he’s actually achieved.

Maybe not to you, it probabaly would for me though.

Football is meritocratic, if you’re a shit manager, if you’re not competent, you don’t last very long. And before anyone starts listing managers they think are shit, you’re mistaking ‘averageness’ with shitness. There are plenty of competent but mediocre managers around but the industry is far too competitive for incapable managers to survive long. Not even if you’re called ‘Gary Neville’.

Guardiola’s job is to manage highly talented and extremely wealthy individuals with big egos, he does that as well as anyone on the planet, whether he could manage a bunch of journeyman doesn’t matter at all.

I agree that people mistake mediocrity for shortness, and I agree that part of Guardiola's job is to manage wealthy players with big egos.

I disagree with your implication that managing journeymen would be the extent of his role as a lower league manager though.

 

[stringer]

Danny, just a quickie, would you feel it's in any way justified to give that article in the Sun the title "Wilder's jealous of lucky Lamps" ?

Yeah

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

Danny, just a quickie, would you feel it's in any way justified to give that article in the Sun the title "Wilder's jealous of lucky Lamps" ?

You mean use the word jealous when Chris is quoted as saying he’d preferred to have got a top job straight away rather than have the shit he had to endure?

 

[DronnieBlade]

It really goes to show that hard work, determination and a certain level of getting your hands dirty works wonders.

Oh and the small matter of knowing how to put a football team together. Credit Knill also.

UTB

All the above said, I HAVE to question his subs (again) tonight.

Offered nowt, including Coutts. Sorry.

And if I was Mark Duffy, I’d be knocking on the door 09:00 Monday for a “chat” !!

UTB

 

[Brian Blessed]

Brian do you seriously believe what you just said ? That anyone on here would have won trophies with Peps teams ?
Why does any club bother paying millions for a Manager if all you need is good players ? Think Man Utd before Fergie and Man Utd after Fergie.

The 3 clubs he managed were light years ahead of other clubs in their leagues in terms of playing squads and/or resources. I do believe that pretty much any manager including Weir or Adkins could have won trophies especially with Barca and Bayern by simply selecting a team and telling them to go out and play football. In England there's more competition but he's had pretty much unlimited funds spending 100million+ on full backs alone last summer. Point was that he can't be called a managerial genius based on what jobs he's had so far. A true genius is one that goes to a nothing club that's never done anything and turns them into league champions like Cloughie did. Twice.

 

[stringer]

A true genius is one that goes to a nothing club that's never done anything and turns them into league champions like Cloughie did.

Ranieri > Guardiola then?

 

[dublin 10 blade]

Wouldn’t know what anybody says or thinks regarding things in the Sun , as I haven’t bought it since they bought in scab Electrcians from Southampton ( nowt changes ehh Pommpy ) to print that paper if I had to wipe my arse after a shit and I only had that paper to use , I’d use my hand
I’m a printer by trade so taking my solidarity seriously

 

[BushBlade]

Despite you presenting it as fact, that's guesswork.

Its educated guesswork, that I'd probably go along with, but far from a certainty.



Maybe not to you, it probabaly would for me though.



I agree that people mistake mediocrity for shortness, and I agree that part of Guardiola's job is to manage wealthy players with big egos.

I disagree with your implication that managing journeymen would be the extent of his role as a lower league manager though.

No, I didn’t present it as fact if you read the whole thread in context. The bit after the first paragraph saying ‘even if that wasn’t the case’.

If you think not winning a L2 promotion somehow detracts from winning the top divisions in three major leagues and the champions league that’s up to you but I find that kind of argument to be pure contrarianism, it’s as relevant to me as whether or not the head of General Motors can change a head gasket. Guardiola is paid to manage big clubs, he does that well and no amount of ‘ah buttery’ will change that.

I didn’t imply that managing journeymen is the extent of his job, it’s just short-hand as writing out his full job description would not add to the post, just make it dull.

 

[BushBlade]

How is Alex McLeish still earning a wage in professional football if its results based?

Which other manager has ever spent £130m of 3 full backs?

I should have specified professional club football but as we were talking about Guardiola I assumed it was obvious. Of course the FA is rife with nepotism and I’d expect the SFA to be the same. I’d hazard a guess that no one decent wants the Scotland job. McLeish wouldn’t last three months at a professional club with his results and bizarre team selections.

 

[Nicolaus_Copernicus]

I should have specified professional club football but as we were talking about Guardiola I assumed it was obvious. Of course the FA is rife with nepotism and I’d expect the SFA to be the same. I’d hazard a guess that no one decent wants the Scotland job. McLeish wouldn’t last three months at a professional club with his results and bizarre team selections.

In the UK, professional football is football, no matter how you slice it. McLeish's performance at international level mirrors his performance at club level. He was poor at Villa, Birmingham & Forest. Specifically at club level? Bruce, Adkins, Koeman, etc. Bruce, after a nice rest will get the next big championship job. There's a pool of managers that keep on getting jobs, regardless of who poor they are. The current employment of Lampard, Gerrard and Terry (and even Henry if you want to stretch it to the continent) is a true reflection of meritocracy in football.

Plenty of managers would want the scottish job. I suspect any 33 year scottish international player coming to the end of their careers would take it on the same basis Speed or Giggs took the welsh job. Again, bringing it back to international football & not wishing to speak ill of the dead, by how in god's name did Speed get the Wales job after 18 games and a 33% win ratio with us due to merit?

Guardiola wasn't even Barca's first choice when they employed him, Laudrup was.

 

[djbaldken]

Its in the Sun! Therefore every word of it must be true!

 

[BushBlade]

In the UK, professional football is football, no matter how you slice it. McLeish's performance at international level mirrors his performance at club level. He was poor at Villa, Birmingham & Forest. Specifically at club level? Bruce, Adkins, Koeman, etc. Bruce, after a nice rest will get the next big championship job. There's a pool of managers that keep on getting jobs, regardless of who poor they are. The current employment of Lampard, Gerrard and Terry (and even Henry if you want to stretch it to the continent) is a true reflection of meritocracy in football.

Plenty of managers would want the scottish job. I suspect any 33 year scottish international player coming to the end of their careers would take it on the same basis Speed or Giggs took the welsh job. Again, bringing it back to international football & not wishing to speak ill of the dead, by how in god's name did Speed get the Wales job after 18 games and a 33% win ratio with us due to merit?

Guardiola wasn't even Barca's first choice when they employed him, Laudrup was.

All those managers aren’t shit though. They’ve sunk to mediocrity but they’ve all got achievements on their CVs. Some older managers move with the times, others rest on their laurels a bit, maybe drink a bit too much but you don’t last twenty odd years in management if you’re shit.

Speed, Lampard, Gerrard were top players with a bit of coaching experience. Their leadership qualities have convinced club owners they can do the job. If they fail, they’ll be lucky to get another crack. If they fail again they’ll go the same way as Tony Adams, Teddy Sheringham or Bobby Charlton.

I can’t see how whether Guardiola was first choice or fifth choice is relevant, he was given an opportunity and he took it.

My view on football is the same as my view on life, it doesn’t matter how you learn to do something, it’s whether you learn it or not that matters.

 

[Nicolaus_Copernicus]

All those managers aren’t shit though. They’ve sunk to mediocrity but they’ve all got achievements on their CVs. Some older managers move with the times, others rest on their laurels a bit, maybe drink a bit too much but you don’t last twenty odd years in management if you’re shit.

Speed, Lampard, Gerrard were top players with a bit of coaching experience. Their leadership qualities have convinced club owners they can do the job. If they fail, they’ll be lucky to get another crack. If they fail again they’ll go the same way as Tony Adams, Teddy Sheringham or Bobby Charlton.

I can’t see how whether Guardiola was first choice or fifth choice is relevant, he was given an opportunity and he took it.

My view on football is the same as my view on life, it doesn’t matter how you learn to do something, it’s whether you learn it or not that matters.

I didn't say they were 'shit', the point I was making was that they were being continually employed for a reason other than merit, and that as their managerial careers progressed and the distance between their last success and the current day elongated, that that fact became more apparent.

The point I was making was that PG didn't get the Barca job on either merit or being some footballing genius (more a wider comment than in answer to your post). He got it because it because their no. 1 target didn't, PG was seen as a safe pair of hands who new the club & won't upset the star names with highfalutin ideas. He basically lucked out. He then oversaw one of the greatest 11's ever assembled, to no. 1 spot in basically a 2 horse league, he then went to Bayern and did the same, finally ending up at City. During his managerial career he has spent over £1bn on players, half of that at city. If Tito Vilanova was still alive, he'd still be barca boss and blown the Pepe myth out of the water.

Stevie Gerrard started coaching the Liverpool youth set up in January 2017, by May 2018 he's managing Rangers.

Frank Lampard stopped playing in February 2017, took his badges alongside his media work and was a manager of a championship club by May 2018. I'd like to bet that if he fails at Derby, he will continue to work in football as long as he wishes to. Just like if Gary Neville announced tomorrow that he wants to manage again, he'd be odds on favorite for the next championship club vacancy.

Speed started coaching us in 2008, by August 2010 he was managing us, by December 2010, he's wales manager.

A bit of coaching experience? Never a truer word spoken

 

[Chali 2na]

No, I didn’t present it as fact if you read the whole thread in context. The bit after the first paragraph saying ‘even if that wasn’t the case’.

Maybe my understanding of the English language isn't as good as yours, but it reads like a statement of fact to me. The following "even if it wasn't the case..." line seems more like a hypothetical, further implying that the previous sentence was valid. I accept that it's not really relevant to the discussion, and it doesn't really matter to me either way though.

If you think not winning a L2 promotion somehow detracts from winning the top divisions in three major leagues and the champions league that’s up to you but I find that kind of argument to be pure contrarianism, it’s as relevant to me as whether or not the head of General Motors can change a head gasket. Guardiola is paid to manage big clubs, he does that well and no amount of ‘ah buttery’ will change that.

I assure you I'm not being a contrarian.

And I think your analogy further demonstrates my point: I work for a engineering company, and in my experience, the senior staff with experience or a deep understanding of basic operations are the most competent in their work. The manufacturing director decided to sample various entry level roles before assuming his position - he's largely credited for the growth and performance of the business, which I feel is, in part, due to his experience.

And I don't think not winning a league 2 title would detract from winning elite competitions, however trying and failing (which is what the argument is about) would be a different matter.

I didn’t imply that managing journeymen is the extent of his job, it’s just short-hand as writing out his full job description would not add to the post, just make it dull.

You're being facetious, you didn't have to type a whole job description.

 

[1066blade]

What a ridiculous headline. He specifically say he’s NOT jealous.

It's the Sun, what the fuck do you expect.

 

[super_pig]

What a ridiculous headline. He specifically say he’s NOT jealous.

#fakenews at its finest

 

[super_pig]

CW is on Football Focus in a bit.

so that’s why we fucking lost!!
foxter.. you can now close all of these threads

 

[BushBlade]

Maybe my understanding of the English language isn't as good as yours, but it reads like a statement of fact to me. The following "even if it wasn't the case..." line seems more like a hypothetical, further implying that the previous sentence was valid. I accept that it's not really relevant to the discussion, and it doesn't really matter to me either way though.




I assure you I'm not being a contrarian.

And I think your analogy further demonstrates my point: I work for a engineering company, and in my experience, the senior staff with experience or a deep understanding of basic operations are the most competent in their work. The manufacturing director decided to sample various entry level roles before assuming his position - he's largely credited for the growth and performance of the business, which I feel is, in part, due to his experience.

And I don't think not winning a league 2 title would detract from winning elite competitions, however trying and failing (which is what the argument is about) would be a different matter.



You're being facetious, you didn't have to type a whole job description.

I just think one should judge someone on what they’ve done, not what they’ve never been required or asked to do.

 

[stringer]

What a ridiculous headline. He specifically say he’s NOT jealous.

Where?

 

[LoughboroBlade]

Where?

I may have slightly misread the original, realised so early on, and couldn’t be arsed to correct the error. I’d kind of hoped nobody would notice...

 

[Chali 2na]

I just think one should judge someone on what they’ve done, not what they’ve never been required or asked to do.

I agree, you seem to be missing the point though (deliberately or otherwise).

We're not talking about a job he's never done or been asked to do, were talking about a hypothetical situation where he couldn't manage a lower league club:

The hypothetical theory that he couldn’t manage a lower league club doesn’t detract from what he’s actually achieved.

You say the (hypothetical) theory he couldn't manage a lower league club doesn't detract, in your opinion, from his achievements not the fact he hasn't managed a lower league club.