Underestimating the fullbacks

[Lmaobob]

Remember that both Enda and Baldock are playing wing back positions which mean that they are expected to be at the top of the pitch when we attack and the bottom of the pitch when defending. Might be easy saying that they're professionals so they should be fit enough to do this.

I just think it's laughable to compare them to other 'high quality' or top end championship left backs - Barry Douglas, Joe Bryan when their clubs are literally playing formations that support the full backs and have an extra player on the wings to do most of the attacking for them.

I just think it's unfair for us to criticise the two fullbacks until we see what they are like in a consistent formation that provides us with proper wingers. That way I think they would excel.

Wonder how much of a real improvement signing players like Douglas or Bryan would make in our team when they are literally doing everything on one side of the pitch with no extra support

 

[NotFallowfieldBlade]

Remember that both Enda and Baldock are playing wing back positions which mean that they are expected to be at the top of the pitch when we attack and the bottom of the pitch when defending. Might be easy saying that they're professionals so they should be fit enough to do this.

I just think it's laughable to compare them to other 'high quality' or top end championship left backs - Barry Douglas, Joe Bryan when their clubs are literally playing formations that support the full backs and have an extra player on the wings to do most of the attacking for them.

I just think it's unfair for us to criticise the two fullbacks until we see what they are like in a consistent formation that provides us with proper wingers. That way I think they would excel.

Wonder how much of a real improvement signing players like Douglas or Bryan would make in our team when they are literally doing everything on one side of the pitch with no extra support

I don’t agree with all this slaying Enda yeah he might not have the best end product but he’s a quality full back and may a better left back shame freeman isn’t a left back as Baldock is a step above him and enda imo

 

[Eric Cartman]

Baldock does a far better job on his side than Stevens does on his side.

 

[Bashar Al Asaba]

It's well documented that Stevens is shite.

Baldock can't be let off the hook either. He's often utterly negligent of his duties at the back.
As it stands, I'd much sooner have Freeman in that position because he gets the balance right. Better still, do away with this attacking wingbacks nonsense altogether.
What once worked against the likes of Bury and Port Vale just doesn't cut it against teams who are more than capable of destroying us down both flanks, and sadly do all too often.

 

[Ginger Gnome]

It's fair to criticise them in the system we play because that's where they're playing. Maybe comparing them to other players in orthodox full back roles isn't entirely fair, but not being allowed to criticise them until we change to a different system that also includes wingers (why would we do that?) and gives them an easier job is a ridiculous idea. Should we not criticise Lundstram and Evans in the same midfield together until we try it in a 4-4-2? If Stevens isn't good enough he should have competition, not have the formation changed to make up for his inadequacies.

 

[Booker4]

It's well documented that Stevens is shite.

Baldock can't be let off the hook either. He's often utterly negligent of his duties at the back.
As it stands, I'd much sooner have Freeman in that position because he gets the balance right. Better still, do away with this attacking wingbacks nonsense altogether.
What once worked against the likes of Bury and Port Vale just doesn't cut it against teams who are more than capable of destroying us down both flanks, and sadly do all too often.

I guess that the bonus to the current system is that we overload the middle of the park, both in defence and midfield, as we have three central players in the middle, whereas many opposition teams only have two. Therefore we force the opposition to the wider areas and that is less of a risk, providing the aren't allowed to cut in easily, or play a ball out wide/over the top into space on a counter that gets in behind us. I think one of the main bonus's to the 3-5-2 system is that if our wing backs attack as they should do then the opposition can struggle to pick up advanced wing backs, especially when they are not necessarily out wide, as Baldock was when he scored on Saturday - totally unmarked.

The negatives are that you lose on attacking wing play and the system relies on a high quality wing backs capable of both defending and attacking to equal measure, when in reality, our wing backs are more defensive than attacking, as they are both essentially former full backs, although Baldock does better than Stevens in getting to advanced positions. The current system also relies also on creativity from the number 10 so when we don't play Duffy or Duffy has a quiet game (and of course we have no Brooks now) then creativity can be reduced.

That's my thoughts anyway!

I think if we sign a quality number 10 then the existing system can still work well. Duffy needs competition for the role.

 

[Isaw Joeshaw]

Remember that both Enda and Baldock are playing wing back positions which mean that they are expected to be at the top of the pitch when we attack and the bottom of the pitch when defending. Might be easy saying that they're professionals so they should be fit enough to do this.

I just think it's laughable to compare them to other 'high quality' or top end championship left backs - Barry Douglas, Joe Bryan when their clubs are literally playing formations that support the full backs and have an extra player on the wings to do most of the attacking for them.

I just think it's unfair for us to criticise the two fullbacks until we see what they are like in a consistent formation that provides us with proper wingers. That way I think they would excel.

Wonder how much of a real improvement signing players like Douglas or Bryan would make in our team when they are literally doing everything on one side of the pitch with no extra support

You're right . It's harsh to criticise them as individuals taking into account the roles they are expected to play , which is effectively two roles rolled into one .

No other players on the pitch are expected to do this , which brings into question the system which demands this of them . Very few clubs in the world have had success with this system and of those that have , it has been as a result of having exceptionally talented and athletic players in the role , usually ones who are natural wingers but also have strong defensive qualities .

In the case of Baldock and Stevens , wingers they certainly ain't but if given the roles of full back only they may , and I say may , prove to be reasonably competent .

In the meantime , persevering with asking them to do both is both unfair on them and damaging to the team and our results .

 

[Stretch]

To be fair to Stevens he was excellent for about 20 games last season, then seemed to lose it. Stopped trying to take on his man and kept losing his man when defending. Worst of both worlds for a wing back.

Baldock gives everything. A far better player but just needs to work on his end product. Great finish on Saturday though.

Stats on both are probably better than what the naked eye suggests but here's the thing....... I preferred Freeman and Lafferty.

 

[Booker4]

To be fair to Stevens he was excellent for about 20 games last season, then seemed to lose it. Stopped trying to take on his man and kept losing his man when defending. Worst of both worlds for a wing back.

Baldock gives everything. A far better player but just needs to work on his end product. Great finish on Saturday though.

Stats on both are probably better than what the naked eye suggests but here's the thing....... I preferred Freeman and Lafferty.

Lafferty didn't impress me even in League One if honest, but he provided balance. I like him as a pro but for me we need better competition for Stevens at LWB than Lafferty, who only played a handful of times last season. Freeman is decent competition for Baldock though.

 

[Stretch]

Lafferty didn't impress me even in League One if honest, but he provided balance. I like him as a pro but for me we need better competition for Stevens at LWB than Lafferty, who only played a handful of times last season. Freeman is decent competition for Baldock though.

Early on during the promotion season I often thought that Lafferty was the weakest of the regular starting 11 but then he seemed to kick on and by the end of the season I thought he was the unsung hero. He is certainly a better defender than Stevens and my memory might be a bit hazy but I seem to recall him regularly and consistently putting in better crosses?
As you say, balance. JOC was more adept [than Basham] as the attacking CB, so it was nice to have Lafferty covering him.

 

[mattbianco1]

Baldock does a far better job on his side than Stevens does on his side.

Partly to do with the fact that Baldock is VERY good

 

[Gimli]

I guess that the bonus to the current system is that we overload the middle of the park, both in defence and midfield, as we have three central players in the middle, whereas many opposition teams only have two. Therefore we force the opposition to the wider areas and that is less of a risk, providing the aren't allowed to cut in easily, or play a ball out wide/over the top into space on a counter that gets in behind us. I think one of the main bonus's to the 3-5-2 system is that if our wing backs attack as they should do then the opposition can struggle to pick up advanced wing backs, especially when they are not necessarily out wide, as Baldock was when he scored on Saturday - totally unmarked.

The negatives are that you lose on attacking wing play and the system relies on a high quality wing backs capable of both defending and attacking to equal measure, when in reality, our wing backs are more defensive than attacking, as they are both essentially former full backs, although Baldock does better than Stevens in getting to advanced positions. The current system also relies also on creativity from the number 10 so when we don't play Duffy or Duffy has a quiet game (and of course we have no Brooks now) then creativity can be reduced.

That's my thoughts anyway!

I think if we sign a quality number 10 then the existing system can still work well. Duffy needs competition for the role.

Considering we do overload the midfield with three in the centre, why do we always end up playing our way out wide and inevitably into a corner, before the attack then peters out? Genuine question because I agree with your point, but i think it’s a bit silly to be focussing our attack where we have the fewest players on the pitch - and before someone says ‘overlapping centre backs’ - we should NOT be relying on JOC and Basham to be providing the attacking threat .

 

[blackydog]

It's well documented that Stevens is shite.

Baldock can't be let off the hook either. He's often utterly negligent of his duties at the back.
As it stands, I'd much sooner have Freeman in that position because he gets the balance right. Better still, do away with this attacking wingbacks nonsense altogether.
What once worked against the likes of Bury and Port Vale just doesn't cut it against teams who are more than capable of destroying us down both flanks, and sadly do all too often.

That would bring Nathan Thomas back into the mix too.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

In League 1, this formation massacred the opposition because 1. it wasn't the norm at the time, 2. the opposition didn't have the players to punish us and 3. we were very good at it. The problem now is that we are up against far better players and clubs now know how to play against us.

What happened last season to an extent and again on Saturday is that teams are converting a high percentage of chances against us, as people have said, Saturday's game was very similar to Brentford last season where they didn't take their chances, Swansea did. Tufty will stick with this and yes, he may have to improve the individual players eventually but this style will always leave us open regardless of who plays there. This is the bigger picture that needs looking at IMO.

 

[AWetFlannel]

Barry Douglas and Joe Bryan both play as wing backs in a back 5 though...

 

[John Street West Terrace]

The wing backs are pivotal to our formation, If they don’t deliver the team doesn’t . Baldock good going forward but def needs to work on defensive side of his game often gets caught out positionally and that’s nowt to do with when he pushes on .
Stevens had a good first 10 games but since that he’s been poor can’t put a decent cross it defending is piss poor .ie Villa home allows Snodgrass inside & Millwall home off the top of my head .
Personally I’d be looking for a lot better than Stevens at this level & Baldock needs to deliver from wide more instead of cutting inside & getting crowded out .
They should both watch footage of of Montero & McKay from the weekend on how to skin a fullback & deliver a quality ball .

 

[SuperDuperBlades]

It's the tippy tappy shit at the back every game that gets me (except when we miskick altogether). We don't have the skill at the back to play this way in our own penalty area.

 

[Kozzy_is_my_Dad]

Let's all just agree, it must be fucking knackering being a wing back. They cover the most ground in our current side.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

Let's all just agree, it must be fucking knackering being a wing back. They cover the most ground in our current side.

Joking aside, it's a fair point and look how late a lot of the goals we're talking about have been in games.

'Game management', by Tufty's own admission, has not been great on occasions but again, that's the style he wants to play (and the style we all love to watch) so that's the price we sometimes have to pay.

 

[Kozzy_is_my_Dad]

The thing is, I can't see Wilder and Knill wanting to move away from 3 at the back, it gives us more solidarity against some shit hot, expensive attacks.

So to do that and to add in wingers, by my reckoning you sacrifice one in the middle and one up top, say:



Now obviously Woodburn and Duffy can be versatile in the above but it's far from straightforward. Can Clarke play up top alone? Will centre mid be tight enough? Will Fleck be able to influence the game? If only we hadn't sent our two natural wingers out on loan etc...

 

[Cerberus Blade]

Remember that both Enda and Baldock are playing wing back positions which mean that they are expected to be at the top of the pitch when we attack and the bottom of the pitch when defending. Might be easy saying that they're professionals so they should be fit enough to do this.

I just think it's laughable to compare them to other 'high quality' or top end championship left backs - Barry Douglas, Joe Bryan when their clubs are literally playing formations that support the full backs and have an extra player on the wings to do most of the attacking for them.

I just think it's unfair for us to criticise the two fullbacks until we see what they are like in a consistent formation that provides us with proper wingers. That way I think they would excel.

Wonder how much of a real improvement signing players like Douglas or Bryan would make in our team when they are literally doing everything on one side of the pitch with no extra support

Agree. Which is why you need wingers. And not full backs or centre halves who arrive in the box exhausted and clueless, looking for support from the likes of Basham or Lundstram.

 

[snootyfenooty]

Early on during the promotion season I often thought that Lafferty was the weakest of the regular starting 11 but then he seemed to kick on and by the end of the season I thought he was the unsung hero. He is certainly a better defender than Stevens and my memory might be a bit hazy but I seem to recall him regularly and consistently putting in better crosses?
As you say, balance. JOC was more adept [than Basham] as the attacking CB, so it was nice to have Lafferty covering him.

Agree 100% on Lafferty being a very competent full back but not so on his attacking qualities, most of his crosses went for a throw in. He had the rare ability (amongst United's defenders that is) of staying on his feet when confronting one of the opposing wingers instead of flying in. It was probably his attacking deficiency only which left him out of favour as a wing back. As you pointed out, he was also good cover for JOC when he went on one of his forays. United have to get back to basics and get the full backs playing as full backs in a back four. It's been glaringly obvious since last December and even more so on Saturday. It was torture watching it knowing exactly what was coming next on the counter attacks.

 

[Lmaobob]

In League 1, this formation massacred the opposition because 1. it wasn't the norm at the time, 2. the opposition didn't have the players to punish us and 3. we were very good at it. The problem now is that we are up against far better players and clubs now know how to play against us.

What happened last season to an extent and again on Saturday is that teams are converting a high percentage of chances against us, as people have said, Saturday's game was very similar to Brentford last season where they didn't take their chances, Swansea did. Tufty will stick with this and yes, he may have to improve the individual players eventually but this style will always leave us open regardless of who plays there. This is the bigger picture that needs looking at IMO.

Agreed. it's what gets me confused when people say that Lafferty and Freeman are better than Stevens and Baldock. I don't agree with that, they were playing against farmers in league 1, we absolutely dominated games against inferior opponents which meant that we could stay high up the pitch.

Nowadays in the Champ, it's mostly end to end stuff so it's a lot harder to be at the top of the pitch by the time we are counter attacking and then back at the bottom of the pitch when the opposition are counter attacking.

Apart from Wednesday under Luhukay, I don't know of any other teams that has a formation with only 1 player on each wing

 

[Eric Cartman]

Can't get why anyone prefers Freeman to Baldock to be honest.

He's our only pace, an outlet up and down for 90 minutes and adept at attacking and defending. He got torn to bits by a fresh Montero the other day but Montero has all the tools to be an absolute monster at this level, he's an Ecuador international for crying out loud.

Freeman might give you more goal threat but that's it for me and he's taller... Apart from I can't see why anyone would prefer him over the more impressive Baldock.

However - would I prefer him at LWB over Stevens? Yes.
Will a right footer at LWB work? Who knows, Ashley Young doesn't do too bad for Man United when they play it and England.

 

[Eric Cartman]

Agreed. it's what gets me confused when people say that Lafferty and Freeman are better than Stevens and Baldock. I don't agree with that, they were playing against farmers in league 1, we absolutely dominated games against inferior opponents which meant that we could stay high up the pitch.

Nowadays in the Champ, it's mostly end to end stuff so it's a lot harder to be at the top of the pitch by the time we are counter attacking and then back at the bottom of the pitch when the opposition are counter attacking.

Apart from Wednesday under Luhukay, I don't know of any other teams that has a formation with only 1 player on each wing

Bristol often revert back to that, Villa yesterday, Wendy, Norwich played it often last year as did QPR.

That being said that is saying that they switched from a 5 to a 4 and were comfortable in doing so. We need to be able to change it up.

 

[I should coco]

It's well documented that Stevens is shite.

Where is it 'well documented'?

In your posting history?

Listen to Beans podcast summing up last season based on yer' actual facts.

He may not be playing like he was in late 2017, but he is most definitely not 'shite'.

 

[LJBlade]

Can't get why anyone prefers Freeman to Baldock to be honest.

He's our only pace, an outlet up and down for 90 minutes and adept at attacking and defending. He got torn to bits by a fresh Montero the other day but Montero has all the tools to be an absolute monster at this level, he's an Ecuador international for crying out loud.

Freeman might give you more goal threat but that's it for me and he's taller... Apart from I can't see why anyone would prefer him over the more impressive Baldock.

However - would I prefer him at LWB over Stevens? Yes.
Will a right footer at LWB work? Who knows, Ashley Young doesn't do too bad for Man United when they play it and England.

I'm not sure how you can say that Baldock is more impressive with Freeman being out injured for so long. Granted, if you're injured then it doesn't matter how good you might be but without Freeman having a run without injuries I'm not sure how you can argue one way or the other.

Personally, I'd give Freeman a run when he's back fit unless Baldock can show some improvement in the final 3rd. He wastes too much possession in my opinion, Saturday being a very good example.

On a slight side note I was surprised about your comment about Freeman being taller as Freeman isn't exactly tall. According to Wikipedia (I know) they're both the exact same height.

 

[Bashar Al Asaba]

Where is it 'well documented'?

In your posting history?

Listen to Beans podcast summing up last season based on yer' actual facts.

He may not be playing like he was in late 2017, but he is most definitely not 'shite'.

Sorry Endikins but I'm afraid you are indeed shite. In fact you make Jordan Stewart look like Roberto Carlos. A podcast won't save you.

 

[I should coco]

Sorry Endikins but I'm afraid you are indeed shite. In fact you make Jordan Stewart look like Roberto Carlos.

Jordan Stewart was right up there on the list of most inept players ever to pull on a red and white shirt. That is hyperbolised hyperbole of the most hyperbolic kind and you sir, are a foul mouthed, know-nowt cretin.

No offence intended, of course!

Endikins does have some football ability but his reluctance to cross gets the Littler Blades foaming at the mouth.

 

[super_pig]

Partly to do with the fact that Baldock is VERY good

not so good at defending unfortunately