The Wage Structure

[I should coco]

So... and here's an idea... we structure the payments similarly to every other club in the land. In installments.

You were talking about upping wages at the start of the thread, there may be a clue in the thread title.

You now seem to be talking about transfer fees.

So is the £4m meant to cover the normal annual losses of £3-£6m , and the new higher wages and some 'structured' transfer fees?

I think that we might have to ask for help from Santa, The Tooth Fairy and the Money Tree on this one.

 

[I should coco]

Obviously as football only began post Sky, I thought I'd check who the other Championship top scorers were.

Admittedly this article only goes up to December last year, but Darrius Chuffing Henderson is in the top 5!

https://www.sportskeeda.com/football/top-5-all-time-goal-scorers-in-the-efl-championship/5

Somehow the plaudit 'top scorer in the Championship' seems to have been a little devalued.

 

[FTPE]

Gallagher’s wages are a stumbling block

How does it work then Danny? Do we put an offer on the table and hope the player just drops his demands or do we keep upping it slightly each week? Are we far off?
I don't know if you have much insight to that kind of thing but for a complete outsider like myself I've no idea what happens or why things take so long.
I mean if we are 20k of Hogan and Gallagers wages surely that just means it's dead and we move on,right?

 

[Eric Cartman]

No.

It's an academy that produces good young players with potential.

Allows us to sell them for decent fees with sell on clauses.

Oh hang on, we don't like that either do we?

Cake and eat it anyone?

I don't mind selling unless we get shit fees. And I'm afraid up until Brooks, and even that's arguable in the current market, we sell for less than the going rate every single time.

 

[Eric Cartman]

You're wasting your time. Simply by pointing out that our strike force has a combined age of 66 you are a pig in disguise, you're a Billy/Leon hater and don't trust Wilder. Oh and I forgot, you have an agenda. When we are bottom by Christmas and you raise this point again, the reply will be something along the lines of "aye but if it weren't for Billy's 4 goals, we'd be even further adrift at the bottom".

They are literally a combined age of 66. It's really not beyond the realms of possibility that we find by September their legs have gone and we are stuck with our salvation being recalling Ched Evans and Caolan Lavery from their loan spells to save us from relegation to League One due to the fact we 'couldn't afford the wages' of Hogan or Gallagher... shudder.

 

[Grizzly blade]

I'm the idiot, coming from someone who thinks 2 33 year olds would be better than a player with the kind of ability that teams were willing to pay 8 figures for only 2 years ago. He scored 7 in 7 in his first season in the championship following an injury and then 14 by January the year after - this is WHY they were willing to pay what they paid. And he lacks natural finishing ability? Eh?

Name me one striker who's looked impressive for Villa? They even managed to ruin Ross McCormack who is the top scorer in Championship history. Grabban scored more for Sunderland than Villa.

Scott Hogan is the very best we could afford on OUR budget. if you have any other suggestions, and I assume you don't, I'd love to hear them.

I think you miss the point. We have 2 strikers who’s record is better than his, and our budget certainly didn’t hamper their arrival.
This kid is average.
And doesn’t warrant the monies he’s after (because he’s already in it), nobody else will take him off Villas hands as a transfer as nobody will pay both fee and salary based on what he’s done there.
Rhodes is another example of the same thing, hence his loan to Norwich

 

[Eric Cartman]

You were talking about upping wages at the start of the thread, there may be a clue in the thread title.

You now seem to be talking about transfer fees.

So is the £4m meant to cover the normal annual losses of £3-£6m , and the new higher wages and some 'structured' transfer fees?

I think that we might have to ask for help from Santa, The Tooth Fairy and the Money Tree on this one.

The £4mil you speak of is £12mil staggered. To bring up the wages of the more deserving players won't cost that much, there's only 2 arguably 3 who deserve to be at the 20 mark. Bring a few other who are deserving of a slight increase up by a couple of grand to ensure there's not too much disparity - it's not going to break the bank whatever way you look at it.

Wilder was apparently happy with the budget BEFORE the sale of Brooks so one would assume we weren't looking in the Evo Stik for players before that.

 

[Grizzly blade]

Wilders job and that of his team is to find players who can do the job on the budget.
If Hogan won’t come or Villa try to insist on a purchase then we move on.
We need more than on each player.
Villa are looking at our recent sale, talk of increased budget and are trying to squeeze as much of that out for them. Hence the time these things take.
I wouldn’t want some of you buying goods or services for me!!
“How much is that fiesta?”...retails at £20k...”lovely where do I sign”

 

[Harrisblade]

How does it work then Danny? Do we put an offer on the table and hope the player just drops his demands or do we keep upping it slightly each week? Are we far off?
I don't know if you have much insight to that kind of thing but for a complete outsider like myself I've no idea what happens or why things take so long.
I mean if we are 20k of Hogan and Gallagers wages surely that just means it's dead and we move on,right?

I suspect that even though we're not getting minute by minute updates, there will be quite a bit of 'haggling' going on behind the scenes.
It will be the sort of stuff we saw on the deadline day programme but over a slightly longer timescale.

 

[I should coco]

The £4mil you speak of is £12mil staggered. To bring up the wages of the more deserving players won't cost that much, there's only 2 arguably 3 who deserve to be at the 20 mark. Bring a few other who are deserving of a slight increase up by a couple of grand to ensure there's not too much disparity - it's not going to break the bank whatever way you look at it.

I give up.

Which bit of we lose about £4m every year, don't you understand?

 

[Eric Cartman]

I think you miss the point. We have 2 strikers who’s record is better than his, and our budget certainly didn’t hamper their arrival.
This kid is average.
And doesn’t warrant the monies he’s after (because he’s already in it), nobody else will take him off Villas hands as a transfer as nobody will pay both fee and salary based on what he’s done there.
Rhodes is another example of the same thing, hence his loan to Norwich

We have 2 strikers who are a combined age of 66. Their legs could go at any time and we currently have Lavery and Evans waiting in the wings.
I've just told you his record for Brentford. Bit better than average.

And of course no ones going to pay that, so it's hard to pull him away but similarly you can incentivise with goal bonuses (if he's as shit as you make out he won't cost us much) and tell him if we get promoted he can go straight back to his old wage. Thats without the golden handshake from Villa he'll no doubt recieve.

 

[SteveBlade]

It's weird how we do shit.

We offered sums for players last season that were laughable. Coady was something ridiculous like two million, it took 97 bids for Leonard to finally get him. The Coady one was the really bemusing one though.

Now we're after players but we don't fancy paying their wage demands.

If this is our game, let's just keep scouring for the best talent in League One. Bollox to having to settle for mediocre, and injury prone Championship players.

 

[Maidenhead]

I don't mind selling unless we get shit fees. And I'm afraid up until Brooks, and even that's arguable in the current market, we sell for less than the going rate every single time.

If we needed the money, which we did, we don't have much say in the matter.

You don't need to be a qualified accountant to see that we lose money every year, you just have to look at the bottom line.

Sometimes that means you just have to take what you can get when the bills need paying.

I suppose we could try "mr creditor, can we pay you in 12 months when we might be able to get lots more for this kid from the academy, and make it worth your while we'll give you a 30% bonus."

If I was the creditor I'd give us a two word answer and it wouldn't be yes please.

I wonder how many posters on here have sold something they didn't really want to because they were skint?

It's no different for football clubs.

 

[Eric Cartman]

I give up.

Which bit of we lose about £4m every year, don't you understand?

Good job we've managed to cut a chunk of wages already then - and only signed one loan goalkeeper.

 

[Eric Cartman]

It's weird how we do shit.

We offered sums for players last season that were laughable. Coady was something ridiculous like two million, it took 97 bids for Leonard to finally get him. The Coady one was the really bemusing one though.

Now we're after players but we don't fancy paying their wage demands.

If this is our game, let's just keep scouring for the best talent in League One. Bollox to having to settle for mediocre, and injury prone Championship players.

Bemusing to say the least.

January has put me off that idea...

 

[SteveBlade]

Bemusing to say the least.

January has put me off that idea...

It didn't turn out too well in January, although I think some could still come good.

It's just a risk. For every Fleck there's a Carruthers, for every JOC there's a Hussey. For me taking that risk is a better bet than signing some fucker who's spent the last seven years in and out of various Ipswichish teams.

 

[Eric Cartman]

It didn't turn out too well in January, although I think some could still come good.

It's just a risk. For every Fleck there's a Carruthers, for every JOC there's a Hussey. For me taking that risk is a better bet than signing some fucker who's spent the last seven years in and out of various Ipswichish teams.

I don't disagree but combine 3 'gambles' that turn out to all be Hussey's - along with 4 loan players who are all James Wilson types - it will result in relegation.

 

[Muttley]

Oh well, if we can't compete we may as well shut up shop now then. Or at the very least, accept we have reached our competative ceiling. What's the point?
:-/

 

[Pinchy]

Boxer that may well be true and if so,given he's already said he's happy with the budget, it increases the pressure on CW to deliver results on the pitch.

The same pressure that all football managers are under, always were and always will be?

 

[Pinchy]

Sorry Mr Cartman. I certainly won’t be taking anything from you judging by the standard intelligence you have provided so far.
If you think Scott Hogan is the very best United can afford on our budget then you are an idiot.
For a start, both Clarke and Sharp are better players, have a better scoring record and have done the job over many years while NEVER earning the ridiculous sums Villa chose to pay him.
If you don’t want to take this from me, take this from the Villa fan ST holder mate of mine...Hogan is poor to average. Out of his depth. Poor touch and lacks natural finishing ability.
He’s offered to give Hogan a piggy back to any club in the land.

My advice to you, is to leave the player recruitment to those who know what they are talking about. Hogan May do a job for us. But not on the salary he thinks he’s worth, but the salary WE think he’s worth.
If he doesn’t like that, then we move into other targets.
That’s football done the RIGHT way, not the piggy, sunland, Villa etc etc way!!

My reaction to any numpty asserting ‘take it from me’ is always quite robust and invariably in the negative.

Anyway, I’m wondering when the Chucksummunnehatit Brigade are going to make a substantial donation. Failing that, they may wish to stop causing themselves embarrassment.

 

[Grizzly blade]

We have 2 strikers who are a combined age of 66. Their legs could go at any time and we currently have Lavery and Evans waiting in the wings.
I've just told you his record for Brentford. Bit better than average.

And of course no ones going to pay that, so it's hard to pull him away but similarly you can incentivise with goal bonuses (if he's as shit as you make out he won't cost us much) and tell him if we get promoted he can go straight back to his old wage. Thats without the golden handshake from Villa he'll no doubt recieve.

Oh so we get him to tear up his current contract and sign one with us based on goal incentives instead? Give yer head a wobble.
The issue isn’t what we have got now, Wilder and everyone else is well aware of the age of the strikers.
And they will also be well aware of any impending “legs going” more than just suggesting it might.
You still miss the point however.
We managed last season to do pretty well with strikers who we managed to get in well within our budget.
You insisted Hogan is the best we can get...the best!! Despite him being outside of our budget. So your solution is to raise the budget to whatever it takes to get this kid.
A kid who has had ONE decent season for a good Brentford side, yet couldn’t get much game time or score in a good Villa side that went to the play off final!

Fact is, there are plenty of strikers out there, cheaper than this kid, who will be as good if not better than he is.
Jack marriott for one.
It is down to the scouts and manager to find them and work hard doing it.

Clubs who take the easy route and try to buy the success in a hurry generally fail.

 

[Pinchy]

I don't mind selling unless we get shit fees. And I'm afraid up until Brooks, and even that's arguable in the current market, we sell for less than the going rate every single time.

It isn’t remotely arguable. The market consisted of a single buyer. There is no going rate for a ‘David Brooks’ unless you are aware of an identical unproven novice who has achieved very little and is recovering from a notably debilitating medical condition.

 

[Sean Thornton]

You're wasting your time. Simply by pointing out that our strike force has a combined age of 66 you are a pig in disguise, you're a Billy/Leon hater and don't trust Wilder. Oh and I forgot, you have an agenda. When we are bottom by Christmas and you raise this point again, the reply will be something along the lines of "aye but if it weren't for Billy's 4 goals, we'd be even further adrift at the bottom".

 

[Eric Cartman]

Oh so we get him to tear up his current contract and sign one with us based on goal incentives instead? Give yer head a wobble.
The issue isn’t what we have got now, Wilder and everyone else is well aware of the age of the strikers.
And they will also be well aware of any impending “legs going” more than just suggesting it might.
You still miss the point however.
We managed last season to do pretty well with strikers who we managed to get in well within our budget.
You insisted Hogan is the best we can get...the best!! Despite him being outside of our budget. So your solution is to raise the budget to whatever it takes to get this kid.
A kid who has had ONE decent season for a good Brentford side, yet couldn’t get much game time or score in a good Villa side that went to the play off final!

Fact is, there are plenty of strikers out there, cheaper than this kid, who will be as good if not better than he is.
Jack marriott for one.
It is down to the scouts and manager to find them and work hard doing it.

Clubs who take the easy route and try to buy the success in a hurry generally fail.

If he wants to leave Villa I'm afraid he'll have to consider something along those lines.
He has had a bit more than 1 decent season.
Hogan is the best we can get, I keep asking for suggestions and the one you've come up with has never played in the championship before - brilliant.

I'd argue the only strikers that did well for us were Clarke and Sharp. Donaldson nothing more than ok, missed a bunch of chances. The others are completely nondescript.

Jack Marriott would cost £4mil. We aren't going to pay that for a League One player, someone will, it won't be us.

 

[I should coco]

There is no going rate for a ‘David Brooks’ unless you are aware of an identical unproven novice who has achieved very little and is recovering from a notably debilitating medical condition.

What about the S2 experts on here?

Markets are all well and good, but plenty on here 'know' that Brooks was worth > £30m.

It's a fact.

A well known fact.

 

[Sean Thornton]

I don't mind selling unless we get shit fees. And I'm afraid up until Brooks, and even that's arguable in the current market, we sell for less than the going rate every single time.

And for the umpteenth time I ask the question "where were the higher bids?".

 

[Grizzly blade]

If he wants to leave Villa I'm afraid he'll have to consider something along those lines.
He has had a bit more than 1 decent season.
Hogan is the best we can get, I keep asking for suggestions and the one you've come up with has never played in the championship before - brilliant.

I'd argue the only strikers that did well for us were Clarke and Sharp. Donaldson nothing more than ok, missed a bunch of chances. The others are completely nondescript.

Jack Marriott would cost £4mil. We aren't going to pay that for a League One player, someone will, it won't be us.

And who’s said he wants to leave Villa?
Yes he might fancy it, but why should he leave Villa and be out of pocket? He’d be as well waiting for Bruce to fuck off and try his luck that a new manager might play him and he might score some goals!
You’re still missing the point.
I could suggest any striker in the championship...Mitrovich ended last season in the champ ...Vydra... Hooper... Assombalonga...The fact still remains they are too expensive and yes we might like them to come for a wage cut why the hell should they?

The correct way to get these players is BEFORE that big money move. The Hogan Brentford signed, not the one they sold

 

[Sean Thornton]

I give up.

Which bit of we lose about £4m every year, don't you understand?

He's ignoring it. The argument is that the £4m pays for players and wages plus any increases and that losses, possible cash flow problems and player disharmony are to be ignored.
Personally, I'd rather Wilder value players, decide their worth and let Bettis oversee the financial side. At least they know the full story and deal with the actualities of real pound notes.

 

[Eric Cartman]

And who’s said he wants to leave Villa?
Yes he might fancy it, but why should he leave Villa and be out of pocket? He’d be as well waiting for Bruce to fuck off and try his luck that a new manager might play him and he might score some goals!
You’re still missing the point.
I could suggest any striker in the championship...Mitrovich ended last season in the champ ...Vydra... Hooper... Assombalonga...The fact still remains they are too expensive and yes we might like them to come for a wage cut why the hell should they?

The correct way to get these players is BEFORE that big money move. The Hogan Brentford signed, not the one they sold

No one - hence why I said if...

Great - you're suggesting totally unrealistic players who'll cost 8 figures rather than a substantial loan fee and wages. Brilliant.

I don't disagree but pin all your hopes on a Hogan for Brentford and you can easily end up with an Eoin Doyle for Preston. We can't afford to make that mistake.

 

[Sean Thornton]

I don't disagree but combine 3 'gambles' that turn out to all be Hussey's - along with 4 loan players who are all James Wilson types - it will result in relegation.

And if Hogan flops?