Official EFL safe standing survey

[Sheffsteel]

Could have bumped up the last safe standing thread but thought the survey deserved specific attention.

There was an official on line petition asking the government to reconsider their stance to refuse “safe standing`’. It currently has over 109,000 signatures, now that the petition has hit the 100,000 signature target then it means the subject will be considered for discussion in parliament.

It seems that the EFL wish to build up momentum regards public opinion.

The Sports Minister Tracey Crouch has announced that she’s unwilling to even consider the subject, her only argument to date has been that “it’s a very small vocal minority that want to standing to be re considered”.

Therefore the EFL have started an official survey this morning and they intend to give the results to the government when they have their debate

The closing date for the survey is 10th May 2018.

Suppose the plan is to poor cold water over the Sports Minister accusation that the vast majority of football fans want to retain all seater stadiums. I hardly know anyone who wants to stop fans having a choice.
So fans who want to sit can sit in peace and those who want to stand can stand in peace.

https://goodform.researchfeedback.net/wh/s.asp?k=152464904563

That link comes up as busy and doesn’t seem to work
So just google “EFL safe standing survey”, then click the link for the EFL site.

 

[Ricky]

I believe the proposed 'safe standing' is an overkill solution but obviously I've done the survey and responded as favourably as possible.

 

[Sheffsteel]

**** Can the moderator merge the 2 standing survey threads****

The other wasn’t on when I started my thread. Thanks.

 

[TJB.]

I believe the proposed 'safe standing' is an overkill solution

Why so?

 

[COME BACK CHED]

I would hate to go back to the days , where it would be easier for Hoolies to enhance , their imagined street cred init .

 

[Ricky]

Why so?

I just don't think such extreme measures are necessary to legally reintroduce standing in football stadiums. It all seems over sanitised. It could be done in a cheaper and more flexible way without reducing capacities or compromising safety in any way.

It won't be a complete solution for matchday atmospheres either and will likely bring issues surrounding enforcement of sitting in the seated areas, but it's better than doing nothing because something obviously needs to change.

 

[TJB.]

I just don't think such extreme measures are necessary to legally reintroduce standing in football stadiums. It all seems over sanitised. It could be done in a cheaper and more flexible way without reducing capacities or compromising safety in any way.

It won't be a complete solution for matchday atmospheres either and will likely bring issues surrounding enforcement of sitting in the seated areas, but it's better than doing nothing because something obviously needs to change.

What makes it extreme, though? It doesn't even require a law change. The secretary of state has full autonomy over the legislation implemented after the Taylor report. All she has to do is give the thumbs up and we're off. Also, what's your cheaper, safer, more flexible solution?

You don't need to go far to find how vastly improved atmospheres can be once safe standing is introduced. Ask Celtic. They're even on about extending theirs!

 

[Ricky]

What makes it extreme, though? It doesn't even require a law change. The secretary of state has full autonomy over the legislation implemented after the Taylor report. All she has to do is give the thumbs up and we're off. Also, what's your cheaper, safer, more flexible solution?

You don't need to go far to find how vastly improved atmospheres can be once safe standing is introduced. Ask Celtic. They're even on about extending theirs!

The cost, the work required to convert and the unnecessarily large amount of space it takes up and consequent reduction in capacity makes it extreme.

I've posted my alternative solution various times, even if it would be on more of an interim/trial basis. Keep things as they are but simply designate certain areas as standing areas and install rails along the chosen rows. It would then be very easy and simple to extend or reduce these areas with minimal work required. Then long term, possibly a conversion to actual terracing but without the need to reduce capacity.

Not everybody is Celtic, it won't have the same effect everywhere. It would generally improve things but fans would still have designated seats/bays, it would be rigid and not allow large groups to gather together easily as traditional terraces do. There's also the possibility of those in seated areas being nullified by being forced to stay seated at all times.

 

[SwissBlade]

Could have bumped up the last safe standing thread but thought the survey deserved specific attention.

There was an official on line petition asking the government to reconsider their stance to refuse “safe standing`’. It currently has over 109,000 signatures, now that the petition has hit the 100,000 signature target then it means the subject will be considered for discussion in parliament.

It seems that the EFL wish to build up momentum regards public opinion.

The Sports Minister Tracey Crouch has announced that she’s unwilling to even consider the subject, her only argument to date has been that “it’s a very small vocal minority that want to standing to be re considered”.

Therefore the EFL have started an official survey this morning and they intend to give the results to the government when they have their debate

The closing date for the survey is 10th May 2018.

Suppose the plan is to poor cold water over the Sports Minister accusation that the vast majority of football fans want to retain all seater stadiums. I hardly know anyone who wants to stop fans having a choice.
So fans who want to sit can sit in peace and those who want to stand can stand in peace.

https://goodform.researchfeedback.net/wh/s.asp?k=152464904563

That link comes up as busy and doesn’t seem to work
So just google “EFL safe standing survey”, then click the link for the EFL site.

I think the campaign is the "Stand up for Choice". This is not a safe standing survey but a survey (finally) which is polling people on their preferences.

I had a discussion on twitter last night about this very topic and how i believed that any surveys i've seen in the past have not asked people about their preferences, but asked if they wanted to stand at football. And to me there is a huge difference.

In the past i have not engaged in conversations on here or completed any surveys as i have not been interested in changing from All Seaters, for me there is no benefit. However, it seems now that the campaigns for (safe) standing are gathering momentum and I feel that if people are happy with the current set up with All seater stadia, then they won't complete the surveys for standing. This was the reason i haven't completed the surveys in the past. However, i've had my say on this survey.

I hope when it comes to it that Sheffield United poll the entire supporter database to get opinion. I fear that eventually the Kop (where i sit and i am happy to sit) will be the area which is designated as the safe standing area, i hope that i am wrong and they choose the Kop/ John street corner. If they choose the Kop then many won't want to stand and many will have to find other areas to sit.

 

[TJB.]

The cost, the work required to convert and the unnecessarily large amount of space it takes up and consequent reduction in capacity makes it extreme.

I've posted my alternative solution various times, even if it would be on more of an interim/trial basis. Keep things as they are but simply designate certain areas as standing areas and install rails along the chosen rows. It would then be very easy and simple to extend or reduce these areas with minimal work required. Then long term, possibly a conversion to actual terracing but without the need to reduce capacity.

Not everybody is Celtic, it won't have the same effect everywhere. It would generally improve things but fans would still have designated seats/bays, it would be rigid and not allow large groups to gather together easily as traditional terraces do. There's also the possibility of those in seated areas being nullified by being forced to stay seated at all times.

I don't see the danger in slightly reducing capacities on grounds that are seldom full anyway. For example, our average this season is 26,647 and our capacity is 32k, with plans in place to extend (those plans in place mean we are highly unlikely to see a safe standing section until the Kop is done up, should legislation change). Of course there's cost, but that's up to the individual clubs and whether they want to cough up for it or not. Safe standing doesn't mean every club HAS to have a section; it's simply about giving clubs and fans a choice.

If it was as simple as chucking some rails up then I'm sure that would be touted as an idea, but I've not seen that suggested anywhere. For standing to be allowed, the system in place has to satisfy all concerns of the SAG's, which the safe standing tech does where it has been implemented. In other words, if something is worth doing it's worth doing right.

Indeed, not everybody is Celtic, but there is a strong appetite for fans and clubs to try and emulate what they have.

 

[LoughboroBlade]

I think the campaign is the "Stand up for Choice". This is not a safe standing survey but a survey (finally) which is polling people on their preferences.

I had a discussion on twitter last night about this very topic and how i believed that any surveys i've seen in the past have not asked people about their preferences, but asked if they wanted to stand at football. And to me there is a huge difference.

In the past i have not engaged in conversations on here or completed any surveys as i have not been interested in changing from All Seaters, for me there is no benefit. However, it seems now that the campaigns for (safe) standing are gathering momentum and I feel that if people are happy with the current set up with All seater stadia, then they won't complete the surveys for standing. This was the reason i haven't completed the surveys in the past. However, i've had my say on this survey.

I hope when it comes to it that Sheffield United poll the entire supporter database to get opinion. I fear that eventually the Kop (where i sit and i am happy to sit) will be the area which is designated as the safe standing area, i hope that i am wrong and they choose the Kop/ John street corner. If they choose the Kop then many won't want to stand and many will have to find other areas to sit.

I respect your (and anyone’s) right to sit.

I respect that others would like to be able to stand, and I too would like the choice to be able to.

There is a danger viewing this somehow as people taking away your seats. It’s not about that – it’s about giving everyone the chance to enjoy a football match safely in a way they prefer. One option allows that, and it’s not an all-seater stadium.

 

[TJB.]

I hope when it comes to it that Sheffield United poll the entire supporter database to get opinion. I fear that eventually the Kop (where i sit and i am happy to sit) will be the area which is designated as the safe standing area

Not really sure why this would be an issue? It'd only be a section. You'd basically be talking about either rounding up everyone who stands on the back rows and dumping them in a part of the Kop, or simply swapping out the back four (?) rows of the Kop for rail seating. You'd still be fine in your seat, but us standing types would be able to do so without shin scrapes and bruises!

 

[Bashar Al Asaba]

I think we can disregard the "vocal minority" statement made by that silly twat from the government then...

 

[Ricky]

People on the Kop moaning about a standing area being installed on the Kop would just about sum us up.

 

[Bashar Al Asaba]

People on the Kop moaning about a standing area being installed on the Kop would just about sum us up.

They can fuck off, other stands are available if they don't like it. Probably the same prima donna cunts who moan about the "facilities".

 

[Ricky]

I don't see the danger in slightly reducing capacities on grounds that are seldom full anyway. For example, our average this season is 26,647 and our capacity is 32k, with plans in place to extend (those plans in place mean we are highly unlikely to see a safe standing section until the Kop is done up, should legislation change). Of course there's cost, but that's up to the individual clubs and whether they want to cough up for it or not. Safe standing doesn't mean every club HAS to have a section; it's simply about giving clubs and fans a choice.

If it was as simple as chucking some rails up then I'm sure that would be touted as an idea, but I've not seen that suggested anywhere. For standing to be allowed, the system in place has to satisfy all concerns of the SAG's, which the safe standing tech does where it has been implemented. In other words, if something is worth doing it's worth doing right.

Indeed, not everybody is Celtic, but there is a strong appetite for fans and clubs to try and emulate what they have.

My suggestion would easily get past the safety groups if they had any common sense.... I suppose that's where it falls down. All it would be is the same as it is now in sections of every ground with the standing, but made official and made safer with the rails.
This could all be with a view to a more thorough, permanent solution but it could also just stay like that - one benefit would be that capacity wouldn't change.

You make a point about the grounds rarely being full, but most will sell out at least once or twice a season, and reducing capacity to install terracing seems stupidly unnecessary.

One instance I would be happy to see a reduction in capacity though is with our Kop. If it was rebuilt at a steeper rake it would make the quality of the stand and the stadium overall so much better and the reduction (and investment) would be worth it.

 

[metalblade]

I can't see why there would be a capacity decrease I would have thought it was the other way round. No problem with people who want to stand let them stand at the back so they don't block the view of people who either don't want to or can't stand for long periods. As it stands everyone has to stand to see the game because you just cannot force everyone to remain seated there is just not enough stewards to enforce it. We should have the choice to either sit or stand hooligans will still be hooligans in seated areas, standing at football did not cause hooliganism.

 

[Sheffsteel]

Not really sure why this would be an issue? It'd only be a section. You'd basically be talking about either rounding up everyone who stands on the back rows and dumping them in a part of the Kop, or simply swapping out the back four (?) rows of the Kop for rail seating. You'd still be fine in your seat, but us standing types would be able to do so without shin scrapes and bruises!

I have a season ticket at the front of the Kop, in my early 50’s but would love to stand.

Also regards reducing stadium capacity. I think the trial period intends for an initial 1 to 1 ratio. However in Germany it’s a 1 to 1.8 ratio and at some clubs it’s even a 1 to 2 ratio. Also I think they can stand where they want.

So eventually if the safe standing trial is a success then you can expect stadium capacities to rise.

Obviously it won’t be anywhere near crush levels but close enough for everyone to keep warm on a cold day.

Personally I think safe standing will be implements but only on a specialist low level basis. Doubt they would ever convert the whole of the Kop.

Think it would be the corner bit or the back section of a newly expanded Kop.

However it’s not so simply when expanding capacity. If United had a Kop designed for safe standing, then the potential bigger capacities means the toilet facilities need to be better with much bigger concourse areas and stadium gangways/ exits.

 

[SteveBlade]

Sometimes I choose to stand up on public transport rather than sit next to someone because I hate people.

 

[Rodley]

I can't see why there would be a capacity decrease I would have thought it was the other way round. No problem with people who want to stand let them stand at the back so they don't block the view of people who either don't want to or can't stand for long periods. As it stands everyone has to stand to see the game because you just cannot force everyone to remain seated there is just not enough stewards to enforce it. We should have the choice to either sit or stand hooligans will still be hooligans in seated areas, standing at football did not cause hooliganism.

John St or H-Block were the hoolie choice back int day. Presumably we’ll put the standing here so we avoid going back to the bad old days with hooligans in seats.

 

[SwissBlade]

I respect your (and anyone’s) right to sit.

I respect that others would like to be able to stand, and I too would like the choice to be able to.

There is a danger viewing this somehow as people taking away your seats. It’s not about that – it’s about giving everyone the chance to enjoy a football match safely in a way they prefer. One option allows that, and it’s not an all-seater stadium.

Not really sure why this would be an issue? It'd only be a section. You'd basically be talking about either rounding up everyone who stands on the back rows and dumping them in a part of the Kop, or simply swapping out the back four (?) rows of the Kop for rail seating. You'd still be fine in your seat, but us standing types would be able to do so without shin scrapes and bruises!

To be perfectly honest I see no reason to change.

I grew up at the end of the terracing era and to be honest i wouldn't want to go back to that at home games.

 

[SwissBlade]

They can fuck off, other stands are available if they don't like it. Probably the same prima donna cunts who moan about the "facilities".

I don't use the facilities but i enjoy sitting on the kop. A number of my mates sit on the south stand, but i don't want to sit there as i don't like the view.

 

[TJB.]

To be perfectly honest I see no reason to change.

You wish to sit, I wish to stand. Currently you can partake in your choice of viewing method safely, I can't. My choice of viewing method also sometimes impacts upon yours, particularly at away games, which can cause friction and annoyance. There's a simple way for you to get what you want and for me to get what I want. That way is safe standing.

I grew up at the end of the terracing era and to be honest i wouldn't want to go back to that at home games.

It's not terracing. It's safe standing.

 

[TJB.]

My suggestion would easily get past the safety groups if they had any common sense.... I suppose that's where it falls down.

Having asked the question of someone far more knowledgeable than myself on the matter, your argument here does carry some weight. There's a 'but', though...

 

[SwissBlade]

You wish to sit, I wish to stand. Currently you can partake in your choice of viewing method safely, I can't. My choice of viewing method also sometimes impacts upon yours, particularly at away games, which can cause friction and annoyance. There's a simple way for you to get what you want and for me to get what I want. That way is safe standing.

It's not terracing. It's safe standing.

I'm not opposed to other people doing it, but like i said on my initial post, i don't want it to be at the expense of where i currently enjoy watching football.

I can't comment on whether it is safe or not, I've seen some stuff about what they do in Germany and what they do at Celtic, but to be perfectly honest thats as far as my knowledge goes. I haven't looked into the whole risk based approach. I've watched football standing at Union Berlin in Germany and didn't have an issue with the safety aspect there, but the German fans behave differently to English.

What i said from the start was that if there is a consideration of this by our club, lets ensure that everyone gets their chance to comment and vote.

I've resigned myself to this happening eventually and i've resigned myself to having to give up my seat and that would probably mean that i gave up going to the football as I don't really want to move my season ticket from the centre of the Kop to the flanks of the South Stand.

 

[metalblade]

John St or H-Block were the hoolie choice back int day. Presumably we’ll put the standing here so we avoid going back to the bad old days with hooligans in seats.

Your constant stalking is making you sound pretty damn stupid

 

[Sean Thornton]

I have no problem with safe standing at BL as long as my ticket price doesn't go up to pay for something someone else wants. The costs to the club means less for players, so needs to be priced accordingly for those who use it.

Plus if it's cheaper, people will move from more expensive seats thus depriving the club of more money. It will only work if x number of extra fans come on board. It's not a black and white issue like some like to make out.

 

[Ricky]

Having asked the question of someone far more knowledgeable than myself on the matter, your argument here does carry some weight. There's a 'but', though...

Interesting, but I don't see the reduction in space as any significant factor. It wouldn't need to be a big reduction if done properly. The rails wouldn't need to be bulky and chest high. They would also make it safer for anyone walking/squeezing along the row past other fans - it's easy to lose your balance and trip over low seats in front.

 

[TJB.]

I'm not opposed to other people doing it, but like i said on my initial post, i don't want it to be at the expense of where i currently enjoy watching football.

I can't comment on whether it is safe or not, I've seen some stuff about what they do in Germany and what they do at Celtic, but to be perfectly honest thats as far as my knowledge goes. I haven't looked into the whole risk based approach. I've watched football standing at Union Berlin in Germany and didn't have an issue with the safety aspect there, but the German fans behave differently to English.

What i said from the start was that if there is a consideration of this by our club, lets ensure that everyone gets their chance to comment and vote.

I've resigned myself to this happening eventually and i've resigned myself to having to give up my seat and that would probably mean that i gave up going to the football as I don't really want to move my season ticket from the centre of the Kop to the flanks of the South Stand.

Don't resign yourself to something that might never happen! Like I said, even if things change and this is brought in, it's not going to happen until the Kop is done up and there's also the possibility it doesn't even get put on the Kop at all (unlikely, but still). I would imagine extensive due diligence would be done with fans/ST holders if it were to come to the Lane and the best solution for all would be reached (if only to prolong the process and avoiding dipping into their pockets!).

It's far, far safer than how people currently stand. I'm on the very back row so I have to stand on my seat, otherwise my view is obstructed as I'm something of a hobbit. TJB Senior is even more hobbity than myself and he obviously wishes to watch the game with his fantastic son, so he too has to stand on a seat (he prefers standing anyway). For a man of 52, this isn't the safest thing to be doing and he has in fact fallen off once. He's not old by any means, but it's risky for him to do be doing that. Rail seats wipe that issue out in an instant.

 

[TJB.]

Plus if it's cheaper, people will move from more expensive seats thus depriving the club of more money.

I really can't imagine it being any cheaper. It's still England, you know. We love being ripped off.