Hoofball v 'proper' football

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

I loved last night's game, apart from the 92nd minute, of course. We mainly played good, attacking football, quick passing, on the ground, trying to create the killer chances. Cardiff lumped the ball long and high, and created little. I was interested in the crowd reaction (I am in the middle of the Kop). Despite the fact that Cardiff playing hoofball are likely to be promoted and we are outsiders now, the crowd spent most of the game mocking and jeering every long high punt of theirs, and made it clear that United should be playing the ball on the ground. Our worst spell in the first half provoked lots of calls to get the ball on the ground, and as soon as we did, we scored. Cardiff played more route 1 football than I remember us doing under Warnock, especially when we had the likes of Tonge and Brown, and everybody I have spoken to since sees it as better for the long-term for us to keep our style of play, as Cardiff look likely to be relegation candidates if they go up. Was this true of the crowd as a whole? It seemed to me that even though Cardiff are likely to get the short term gain, our fans prefer the Wilder style of football. As long as it is played with passion and attacking intent, the crowd is behind the style of play.

 

[trav164]

Would I trade our style of play for route 1 just for an earlier chance at promotion?

Absolutely not! Imagine watching that shite all season?

 

[Nicolaus_Copernicus]

The simple fact of the matter is that, upon promotion to the premiership, if Cardiff so wish, they can get rid of Warnock, all the heinous coaches & the hoofing players and bring in a new manager and new players. They can bring in Marco Silva, give him a book full of blank cheques & an up to date atlas and let him go bat shit crazy, signing the most technically proficient footballers the Cardiff punters have ever seen from around the globe. That's what promotion to the premier league allows clubs to do. The club are currently using a strategy that best brings this opportunity to them. Which I hope is the intention of all clubs currently in the championship, unless we've taken the view that we'll total football our way to mid table mediocrity from here on in. In football there is the 'moral' victory and the 'actual' victory, the 'practical' over the 'aesthetic'. As it currently stands, and based upon probability, come the start of next season, I would rather be in Cardiff's position than ours.

 

[Booker4]

I agree that we play better football but also I can't take much comfort right now from that, since we keep outplaying teams but are not clinical enough. That's the really frustrating part. But I don't take anything from Cardiff either, they've done fantastically well this season to be up ahead of Fulham, Boro and Villa. Yes they'll probably come down but they'll come down with the parachute payments and likely to be very strong again. They weren't expected to be up there this season but neither were we and I would say that Cardiff are a season or so ahead of us, having spent longer in this division.

 

[Davalon]

I think for far too long we've been associated with an industrial style of football, sometimes unfairly so.

I'm too young to remember the Currie days but starting in 1981 I can't remember us playing as much proper passing football bar a short spell under Kendall.

Undoubtedly the football could be entertaining and skilful under both Bassett and Warnock, and we certainly played some better stuff than we were given credit for at times. However those styles will only get you so far in the game.

The Wilder style will take you further as long as he's allowed to integrate higher quality players as you go forward.

I've always been a results man over style if pushed but I think many of us having enjoyed our approach the last 2 seasons, can not only see the long term benefits, but also that we've spent too many years giving the ball away too easily and just playing the percentages.

 

[Beans]

To an extent, I'm fine with whatever works. Cardiff have a lot of pace and power so that direct style suits their personnel and is why they're going up. If we tried to play that way we'd generally be held at arm's length.

The last two seasons have been an absolute joy to watch the style we play - everyone comfortable on the ball, playing through and around teams rather than over the top. Best football I've seen from a United side.

I don't think we should get "holier than thou" about the style though, I remember Fulham last year were moaning like crazy because their beautiful, Barcelona football was shut down by Reading, and we saw similar at the start of the season when we deigned to beat Brentford. Play to your strengths and all that.

 

[alcoblade]

I’m more than happy with our style of play, and it’s better than it was under Warnock. Wilder is a top manager and we are lucky to have him.

That said for all the blather, in recent times only one manager has delivered 30,000 plus average gates for us, so far.

Like it or not, winning football is what gets people through the gates, whatever style delivers it.

 

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

The simple fact of the matter is that, upon promotion to the premiership, if Cardiff so wish, they can get rid of Warnock, all the heinous coaches & the hoofing players and bring in a new manager and new players. They can bring in Marco Silva, give him a book full of blank cheques & an up to date atlas and let him go bat shit crazy, signing the most technically proficient footballers the Cardiff punters have ever seen from around the globe. That's what promotion to the premier league allows clubs to do. The club are currently using a strategy that best brings this opportunity to them. Which I hope is the intention of all clubs currently in the championship, unless we've taken the view that we'll total football our way to mid table mediocrity from here on in. In football there is the 'moral' victory and the 'actual' victory, the 'practical' over the 'aesthetic'. As it currently stands, and based upon probability, come the start of next season, I would rather be in Cardiff's position than ours.

You may be right, though if Cardiff get rid of their promotion-winning manager and players, and still struggle (getting a team of expensive strangers together doesn't always work), the atmosphere could get quite hostile there. The main point that I was trying to make is that I felt it was noticeable that the crowd were willing us to play the ball on the ground. I felt no sense of why didn't we get Warnock back to win us promotion.

 

[super_pig]

The simple fact of the matter is that, upon promotion to the premiership, if Cardiff so wish, they can get rid of Warnock, all the heinous coaches & the hoofing players and bring in a new manager and new players. They can bring in Marco Silva, give him a book full of blank cheques & an up to date atlas and let him go bat shit crazy, signing the most technically proficient footballers the Cardiff punters have ever seen from around the globe. That's what promotion to the premier league allows clubs to do. The club are currently using a strategy that best brings this opportunity to them. Which I hope is the intention of all clubs currently in the championship, unless we've taken the view that we'll total football our way to mid table mediocrity from here on in. In football there is the 'moral' victory and the 'actual' victory, the 'practical' over the 'aesthetic'. As it currently stands, and based upon probability, come the start of next season, I would rather be in Cardiff's position than ours.

hmm.. i wouldn't.. you can give Silva a cheque book but to completely change the style of play and personnel in 2 months?? no chance. you have to go up playing the right way and then you carry on just as you were before. that is why we have done well this season

 

[super_pig]

I’m more than happy with our style of play, and it’s better than it was under Warnock. Wilder is a top manager and we are lucky to have him.

That said for all the blather, in recent times only one manager has delivered 30,000 plus average gates for us, so far.

Like it or not, winning football is what gets people through the gates, whatever style delivers it.

yeah but we were playing Man Utd not Barnsley

 

[alcoblade]

yeah but we were playing Man Utd not Barnsley

Oh aye, but what brought Man United to our table?

 

[blademanc]

hmm.. i wouldn't.. you can give Silva a cheque book but to completely change the style of play and personnel in 2 months?? no chance. you have to go up playing the right way and then you carry on just as you were before. that is why we have done well this season

Risky making a big change in style quickly.Didnt work with De Boer at Palace.

 

[super_pig]

Risky making a big change in style quickly.Didnt work with De Boer at Palace.

or stoke. or wba..

 

[wizadry]

I agree we should play to our strengths which is why we should keep the ball on the floor and try to outclass sides, as we have done many times this season.

As soon as we start punting the ball forward in the hope of it breaking it never works and you can see Clarke and whoever plays with him getting very frustrated.

It also bodes well for if we’re going to need loans in the next few years as I think top clubs will lend us their top prospects knowing they’re going to be playing football at a good standard and the way most of the top clubs want football to be played. Some will work and some won’t, that’s football but it’d be nice to have the chance to see though.

 

[Roygbiv]

It's been great football to watch for the majority of the season but we do struggle to mix it up a bit. At the moment we don't have the players to outclass every team in the league with our football so in terms of grinding out results you do wonder whether we would have picked up more points against the better sides playing a different way.

That said the reason we love this team is because of how they play. When we are bored shitless under another manager in years to come we will talk about this era with great delight. I've hugely enjoyed this season and the main reason is because how we have approached most games and how we have established ourselves not just as the old "tough team to beat Sheffield United" but as one of the best footballing sides in the league.

It's been extremely refreshing to hear the plaudits we have received for our style after decades of having the "direct, hard working and tough" label.

 

[Sheffsteel]

It's been extremely refreshing to hear the plaudits we have received for our style after decades of having the "direct, hard working and tough" label.

We still don’t receive the plaudits as being one of the best footballing sides in this division.

You’ll noticed that it’s becoming such a coincedance now opposition always seem to have their worse performance of the season against us.

Brentford always dominate the opposition, have loads of possession and loads of shots every match.
On Friday it was us that dominated Brentford and some of their fans say it was their worse performance of the season.

We dominated 2nd place Cardiff last night
And the Cardiff fans say it’s their worse performance in months.

Early in the season we dominated top of the table Wolves in an easy 2-0 win.
Their fans put it down to it being their worse performance of the season.

 

[wizadry]

We still don’t receive the plaudits as being one of the best footballing sides in this division.

You’ll noticed that it’s becoming such a coincedance now opposition always seem to have their worse performance of the season against us.

Brentford always dominate the opposition, have loads of possession and loads of shots every match.
On Friday it was us that dominated Brentford and some of their fans say it was their worse performance of the season.

We dominated 2nd place Cardiff last night
And the Cardiff fans say it’s their worse performance in months.

Early in the season we dominated top of the table Wolves in an easy 2-0 win.
Their fans put it down to it being their worse performance of the season.

Spot on!

We still don’t get enough credit but as long as we know it and are happy with how we play, now although it would be nice to see more for the lads who gives a fuck what every other twat thinks!

 

[Iceybabey]

One thing that stood out for me was how technically inept their defenders were. Yes they are good at defending, best in the league but eff me, I'd rather watch JOC, Bash and Stearman all day long. Our defenders can pass, long or short, get forward and can carry the ball forward.

 

[fishpie]

I appreciate not everyone thinks the same but I've come to the conclusion that I like to see us playing good football more importantly than winning (apart from when we play Wednesday). Perhaps it's because Ive seen us under most guises (from Harris to Wilder), I don't know if that's changed my outlook.
Sure we have to put up with some disappointments. But I can live with that because when you get the good football and the win it's soooo worth it ..Keep it up Chris..UTB

 

[Roygbiv]

We still don’t receive the plaudits as being one of the best footballing sides in this division.

You’ll noticed that it’s becoming such a coincedance now opposition always seem to have their worse performance of the season against us.

Brentford always dominate the opposition, have loads of possession and loads of shots every match.
On Friday it was us that dominated Brentford and some of their fans say it was their worse performance of the season.

We dominated 2nd place Cardiff last night
And the Cardiff fans say it’s their worse performance in months.

Early in the season we dominated top of the table Wolves in an easy 2-0 win.
Their fans put it down to it being their worse performance of the season.

I mean more from the pundits though the way we play has been commented on in a complimentary way by a lot of opposition fans this season too.

 

[Iceybabey]

We still don’t receive the plaudits as being one of the best footballing sides in this division.

You’ll noticed that it’s becoming such a coincedance now opposition always seem to have their worse performance of the season against us.

Brentford always dominate the opposition, have loads of possession and loads of shots every match.
On Friday it was us that dominated Brentford and some of their fans say it was their worse performance of the season.

We dominated 2nd place Cardiff last night
And the Cardiff fans say it’s their worse performance in months.

Early in the season we dominated top of the table Wolves in an easy 2-0 win.
Their fans put it down to it being their worse performance of the season.

Totally agree, got news for these deluded twats, we made you look shit you jammy twats.

 

[The Crab]

Risky making a big change in style quickly.Didnt work with De Boer at Palace.

De Boer made De Bollocks of it.

 

[Sheffsteel]

I appreciate not everyone thinks the same but I've come to the conclusion that I like to see us playing good football more importantly than winning (apart from when we play Wednesday). Perhaps it's because Ive seen us under most guises (from Harris to Wilder), I don't know if that's changed my outlook.
Sure we have to put up with some disappointments. But I can live with that because when you get the good football and the win it's soooo worth it ..Keep it up Chris..UTB

I’m exactly the same.

For the past 2 seasons win, draw or lose, I know that I’m GUARANTEED entertainment.
Hence why I’m a season ticket holder and will definitely renew, previously I’ve only ever had a season ticket when we’ve been in the top flight. I’ve never known guaranteed entertainment before and I’ve been going regularly since 1977.

So I’m happy for the time being.
However if we have 2 or 3 years of great football but not getting near any success, then maybe I’ll prefer the Warnock/ Bassett direct style again.

 

[Nicolaus_Copernicus]

Risky making a big change in style quickly. Didn't work with De Boer at Palace.

You need total buy in from the players. To ensure that, get rid of all the old & bring your own in. De Boer was promised this and it didn't materialise, so he was forced to try and change things with the old guard in situ and it didn't work. I don't think he's a bad manager, just seriously overestimated the average IQ of the british player and their actual interest in both the game as a whole & self improvement. Palace will get relegated sooner or later with an aging side and will need rebuilding. I'd rather do it with a De Boer at the helm than a Hodgson.

 

[DronnieBlade]

The simple fact of the matter is that, upon promotion to the premiership, if Cardiff so wish, they can get rid of Warnock, all the heinous coaches & the hoofing players and bring in a new manager and new players. They can bring in Marco Silva, give him a book full of blank cheques & an up to date atlas and let him go bat shit crazy, signing the most technically proficient footballers the Cardiff punters have ever seen from around the globe. That's what promotion to the premier league allows clubs to do. The club are currently using a strategy that best brings this opportunity to them. Which I hope is the intention of all clubs currently in the championship, unless we've taken the view that we'll total football our way to mid table mediocrity from here on in. In football there is the 'moral' victory and the 'actual' victory, the 'practical' over the 'aesthetic'. As it currently stands, and based upon probability, come the start of next season, I would rather be in Cardiff's position than ours.

What you suggest is possible on paper is incredibly difficult in practise.

To transform a squad of players set up by a specific type of manager to play a specific way, and then suggest in one summers recruitment that it’s possible to totally transform the ethics and ethos of a club by changing its manager and a shitload of players is, quite frankly, cloud cuckoo land.

Much is made by Wilder of the fact that when his time does eventually come to an end, the club, it’s ethos DNA and footballing style from academy upwards will be fully portable to a new manager who can, in theory, fit in seemlessly.

I just don’t see how Cardiff could bin Warnock off and suddenly transform in to an Arsenal !

UTB

 

[Nicolaus_Copernicus]

What you suggest is possible on paper is incredibly difficult in practise.

To transform a squad of players set up by a specific type of manager to play a specific way, and then suggest in one summers recruitment that it’s possible to totally transform the ethics and ethos of a club by changing its manager and a shitload of players is, quite frankly, cloud cuckoo land.

Much is made by Wilder of the fact that when his time does eventually come to an end, the club, it’s ethos DNA and footballing style from academy upwards will be fully portable to a new manager who can, in theory, fit in seemlessly.

I just don’t see how Cardiff could bin Warnock off and suddenly transform in to an Arsenal !

UTB

How many players and what % of the match day squad did CW bring in before the 16/17 season? Everyone except Coutts, Sharp & Basham? And he quickly instilled a new playing style. And without checking my reference library, I suspect Bassett did the same thing pre-season 88/89

 

[gavtheblade]

The football we've played this season,coupled with last season has been phenomenal.
Thus,it's vital we keep hold of the key players if we can.
Fleck, Baldock,Stevens have been very impressive.

 

[DronnieBlade]

How many players and what % of the match day squad did CW bring in before the 16/17 season? Everyone except Coutts, Sharp & Basham? And he quickly instilled a new playing style. And without checking my reference library, I suspect Bassett did the same thing pre-season 88/89

The playing style of Nigel was incredibly similar to that of Wilder. Just that Chris is vastly superior in its execution (much credit to Knill here as well). So the seed change just was not in evidence in this transition.

Now Bassett I will have to give you. Although this did come at a time when even Man Utd hoofed it high and handsome due to some ill conceived ideas and perceptions popularised at the time as being “effective” football.

Suffice to say the later is now around 25 years out of date and significantly less popular !

UTB

 

[PokerBlade]

If you can only enjoy football when it's winning you picked the wrong club to follow.

Last night was like travelling back in time and watching us from the opposition's end. We were exactly the kind of team that Warnock could never handle. He's all about direct football, win your individual fights, and get it out wide and into the box quickly. Whenever a team could match Warnock's physically (like we did last night with Basham and JOC) and also had the players to move the ball around he was in for a bad night.

Warnock's a good manager. Cardiff are a good team. But it's limited. Basically the pinnacle of it in the modern game is Allardyce in the top half with Bolton, or Pulis with Stoke. At some point, those teams realise that they've gone as far as they can go and have to make wholesale changes to the management and squad. Often as not that goes badly.

Even if we're short of Cardiff right now, at least we have the foundations to go all the way. It's not going to be about changing the philosophy of the club, it's about whether we can compete for the players.

Yeah, I'd take second over ninth, but that's not the option. There's a reason the top of the game isn't about hoofing it forward to a big man any more.

 

[Sheffsteel]

What you suggest is possible on paper is incredibly difficult in practise.

To transform a squad of players set up by a specific type of manager to play a specific way, and then suggest in one summers recruitment that it’s possible to totally transform the ethics and ethos of a club by changing its manager and a shitload of players is, quite frankly, cloud cuckoo land.
UTB

True but it is possible.

Still can’t forget the instant transformation when Howard Kendall was appointed.
It was like witnessing a miracle, all of a sudden all our players looked comfortable on the ball and we played a neat passing game.
The ringmaster was Gordon Cowans, who was one of Kendall’s first signings.
He was very similar (probably even better) playing style wise to Paul Coutts.