Nigel Clough Appreciation Society

[nowtfancy]

Coutts and J. Wallace were big gambles. Coutts has eventually paid off whereas Wallace didn't but both were gambles given their injury problems and in terms of what they gave Clough during his time here, they were bad signings. Fortunately, Wilder has been able to reap the rewards of Coutts, Freeman and Basham and get them playing to the best of their ability.

I read that as you saying coutts was a bad signing!!

 

[BushBlade]

These are professional footballers you are talking about ,earning wages to pay for mortgages ,playing in front of thousands of people and on TV.They don't 'pine' for managers ,a good manager makes them play better earn more money etc ,only Brayford has gone on to play for Clough again ,you act like they are schoolkids playing Wembley in the playground ,its just nonsense.

I think 'pining' is the wrong term but I think they were used to a fairly blunt 'say it as you see it' type of manager who gave them very clear roles within the team. I think some of them found it hard to adapt to Adkins' style of management and didn't have a lot of faith in him or his verbiage. In a game of fine margins it can make a difference. In every walk of life, no matter how much people earn, their performance can be affected by how they're managed. Adkins appeared to think that he didn't have to change his style at all to suit the players at his disposal. He got that very wrong. Maybe he just didn't have the skills to influence strong characters who were disaffected.

 

[BushBlade]

Funny isn’t it. In the end if Danny W or FLN had got us up we’d probably have become a bang average mid to top half Champ side and stuck with them as long as relegation didn’t loom.

It makes you realise that perhaps sacking managers isn’t a bad strategy, as each time you do you have a chance to win the jackpot.

We’ve hit 4 Bars in more ways than one!

The Magic is Back

The problem with changing managers is that you only get a Wilder once in a generation.

 

[Davalon]

Did Clough have the biggest backroom staff of any United manager ever?

The fact they all got mentioned by name on OS when leaving told a story for me.

What did Taylor and Crosby do btw?

Is Simon still scouring the Fylde coast and the West of Edinburgh for talent?

 

[1danewhitehouse]

I read that as you saying coutts was a bad signing!!

He was a signing that turned out bad for Clough because he only started paying dividends 18 months later long after Clough was gone.

 

[I should coco]

Clough's crap league form was papered over by a few fluky wins in the cup (yes hand on heart we have to say we had a lot of luck in our cup competitions)

I agree with some of your points but the above 'few fluky wins' and 'we had a lot of luck', got me wondering where I'd heard something similar recently.

Hang on, it's coming to me........

Yup, just about got it.......

NKT explaining our table topping season so far.

Perhaps you may wish to suitably modify any future arguments?

 

[sitwell]

Problem is Stiwell, they are exactly that and will do what they want if they don't like a manager. There have been very few managers who have been able to control players consistently, you only have to look at the number of teams who suddenly improve once they've got the current manager sacked. Maybe a new manager has something to do with it but they don't go from inept 1 week to decent the next. There is very little professionalism about the attitudes of most professional footballers IMO.

But its more to do with tactics ,motivation ,training methods ,fitness coaching ,not with actually playing for a manager because of his personality ,if a manager stops you using the best tools at your disposal then you have no option.
Coutts for example played average for Clough mainly due to his injury problems ,he went backwards for Adkins because he played him out of position in a formation and style which was hopeless ,he didn't suddenly start playing well for Wilder just because its Chris Wilder ,he found a formation and style that suited his game. At this level it isn't down to liking people.

 

[Lane Ender]

The problem with changing managers is that you only get a Wilder once in a generation.

Yea like Harris, Bassett , Warnock and Wilder

 

[BushBlade]

Yea like Harris, Bassett , Warnock and Wilder

Exactly. That spans fifty years and look at the dross we've had between them. I won't name them because it will traumatise people who are still trying to forget them.

 

[Grecian2000]

add Porterfield to the list and that pretty much ties up all the promotions in my lifetime.

 

[Davie Blade]

I agree with some of your points but the above 'few fluky wins' and 'we had a lot of luck', got me wondering where I'd heard something similar recently.

Hang on, it's coming to me........

Yup, just about got it.......

NKT explaining our table topping season so far.

Perhaps you may wish to suitably modify any future arguments?

Any cup run involves a lot of luck was the point I was making; which is in direct contrast to the sustained bread and butter of the league which 'tends' to even itself out.
If i can combine several football metaphors.

I frankly don't give a fuck what NKT says.

 

[GrayBlade]

Did Clough have the biggest backroom staff of any United manager ever?

The fact they all got mentioned by name on OS when leaving told a story for me.

What did Taylor and Crosby do btw?

Is Simon still scouring the Fylde coast and the West of Edinburgh for talent?

I believe the term ‘backroom staff’ was dropped during Clough’s reign and the official term was his ‘entourage’.

 

[Davie Blade]

If only I could like this umpteen times..

Brilliant

thank you sir , just send a cheque.

 

[I should coco]

Any cup run involves a lot of luck was the point I was making; which is in direct contrast to the sustained bread and butter of the league which 'tends' to even itself out.

Ah yes, 'taking each game one at a time', I'm with you now.

If i can combine several football metaphors.

Be my guest. No easy metaphors on this board though.

I frankly don't give a fuck what NKT says.

You should, you really should!

They are omnipotent, having spent so many years in La Liga.

As a pub team we really should know our place. Our lucky run will end soon and we will go tumbling down the table....

Tumbling!

 

[Smirth]

No you've got it all wrong ,we were lucky in the cups ,everytime apparently . As for Davies selective amnesia he seems to forget the situation we were in when Weir left and the miraculous job Clough did in that first season ,but that was probably all luck to. Freeman Basham and Coutts were bad signings ,Cuvelier and Baxter were good though ,jesus wept.

He also signed: Butler, Brayford, McEveley, Davies, Alcock, McGahey, Higdon, Wallace x 2, Campbell-Ryce and thought they were the calibre of players required to win automatic promotion.

We are far better off without. Burton is his level, he has god like status at a small club that is punching way above its weight and expect to lose more games than they win.

I’d wager that if he had a full season at a football league club he would never win an automatic promotion. He’s far too negative in his approach.

 

[Booker4]

Overall I've more negativity than positivity regarding Clough. Everyone else has said the points I wanted to, regarding the shortcomings but he did also bring in some good players and the cup runs were great, but sadly the league indifferent. He's a decent match for Burton but he'd probably do well at Sunderland too with them needing to stay up and the defensive football he plays would be ideally suited right now for them.

 

[nicksufc]

Both cup runs were the highlights of the decade for me, and in both semis we were tantalisingly close to getting to a cup final. That would have meant the Blades in Europe! Clough was fantastic when setting teams up not to lose in a cup tie, but when faced with teams who sat back and were happy to soak up pressure he didn't have the brains nor the courage to win the game.

I was just looking back at the stats for the 2014/15 season, because I remember us consistently starting matches incredibly slowly at home. In our first 13 home games of 14/15, we scored a total of 2 first half goals. The figure is the same away from home. That just sums up the negative, must-not-lose attitude of Clough. Contrast that with this season, where we've scored 7 first half goals in 8 home games. We start quickly and aggressively because we set out to win the game from minute 1.

 

[United Aren't Back.]

Seem to remember 5 at Rochdale, 5 at Notts County, 3 at Bury and one or two others when Ched was banging them in for fun.

But for a miscarriage of justice, things might have been very different. Wish him well but not on Friday!

Clough never managed Ched.

 

[Fulwood Blade]

I'm not going to Burton on Friday but will be giving Nigel a good round of applause when they return to Bramall Lane next year.

There's been some rubbish written on this thread - but, well done to you, your comment says it all for most - as was demonstrated when Clough brought Burton to the Lane the last time.

UTB

 

[BushBlade]

Clough never managed Ched.

True but he always reads the whole thread before replying to a post.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

The fawning rewriting of history, allied to selcetive amnesia on here is frankly nauseating,

Any experienced lower league manager would have kept us up after the failure of clueless 13th choice rooky Weir, who did actual recruit a couple of good players. in Baxter Cuvelier, and Coady.
Clough's crap league form was papered over by a few fluky wins in the cup (yes hand on heart we have to say we had a lot of luck in our cup competitions)
He failed massively despite having the biggest budget in the league. He acquired a woeful 71 points with a 41% win record (CW achievement was 65%wins and gigantic 29 points better)

His time at the lane left a legacy to Adkins of a club with massively bloated piss poor squad on ridiculously high contracts wages, with frozen out players, no defence, no attack, and best players desperate to leave. His player recruitment throughout was the worst of any blades manager when set against our clubs relative bargaining power. Over inflated transfer fees , Over paid contracts for Over rated players was his legacy.We lost millions on the wages/transfer fees on the likes of Wallace, Scougall, Done, Brayford, The scale of these loses dwarf the cup money., added to his very 'dubious transfer dealings' with his mate the bang shady Brannigan.

Clough is NOT a above average manager he is bang shite manager.
His managerial career record is abysmal, his man management skills are nearly zero. His constant winging about officials, makes Warnock look like a monk on a sabbatical.

His record does not stand up to any serious scrutiny

Presided over Derbys worst ever run of lowest sequence league positions in their 130 odd year history FACT.
Inherited Burton who were romping away with the league and scraped up by turning them into a 7th place form club. FACT
In nearly 7 years of management at Derby and Burton his win record is a paltry 33%.FACT
Name me another EFL manager who has been allowed 7 years of utter failure with that record.
Name one player who Clough has discovered and gone on into PL/international level.
Coutts, Duffy and, Freeman are unrecognisable players under Sir Chris's tutelage .
He couldn't even get Mark Duffy to join him in the championship.

Anyone seriously missing a cup run under Wilder?
Anyone missing the shit bore fest crap pedestrian sideways style served up by Clough?
I am not.
I am delighted the over-praised incompetent arsehole, living off his dads name, will not be anywhere near our club ever again..
A sentiment a certain Prince and Mr McCabe who coughed up big time for his bungling, I am sure will concur with

For the sake of balance.


Cuvelier is one of the worst midfielder’s we’ve ever had and Baxter, whilst talented, has proven himself to be a waster and a player that Wilder wouldn’t entertain.


When considering the money lost on his bad signings, as well as the cup runs, we should offset that against the money made on Che Adams and the money made on Jamie Murphy (not a Clough signing but most would have given him away for nowt before Clough got hold of him). He also signed players that are proving to be very good in the championship now under Wilder.


He wasn’t all bad. But he was a million miles from what Wilder has produced.


Worst recruitment ever? When compared to bargaining power? He did sign some shockers I’ll give you that but Robson signed the likes of Hendrie and Carney with a Premier League budget. Blackwell signed these guys:-


Johannes Ertl

Matthew Spring

Simon Walton

Jordan Stewart

Andy Taylor

James Harper

Ryan France

Marc Yeates

Darius Henderson

Nyron Nosworthy

Steve Simmonsen

Kyel Reid

Jonathan Fortune

Andrew Davies

Craig Beattie

John Joe O Toole

Mihkel Aksalu

Anthony Stokes

Daniel Bogdanovic



Now I know Clough’s list was bad. But can you say it was worse than the above? Given that when Blackwell came in, we still had a year of PL Parachute payments to come?

 

[sitwell]

For the sake of balance.


Cuvelier is one of the worst midfielder’s we’ve ever had and Baxter, whilst talented, has proven himself to be a waster and a player that Wilder wouldn’t entertain.


When considering the money lost on his bad signings, as well as the cup runs, we should offset that against the money made on Che Adams and the money made on Jamie Murphy (not a Clough signing but most would have given him away for nowt before Clough got hold of him). He also signed players that are proving to be very good in the championship now under Wilder.


He wasn’t all bad. But he was a million miles from what Wilder has produced.


Worst recruitment ever? When compared to bargaining power? He did sign some shockers I’ll give you that but Robson signed the likes of Hendrie and Carney with a Premier League budget. Blackwell signed these guys:-


Johannes Ertl

Matthew Spring

Simon Walton

Jordan Stewart

Andy Taylor

James Harper

Ryan France

Marc Yeates

Darius Henderson

Nyron Nosworthy

Steve Simmonsen

Kyel Reid

Jonathan Fortune

Andrew Davies

Craig Beattie

John Joe O Toole

Mihkel Aksalu

Anthony Stokes

Daniel Bogdanovic



Now I know Clough’s list was bad. But can you say it was worse than the above? Given that when Blackwell came in, we still had a year of PL Parachute payments to come?

Blackwell

 

[awblade]

To me it shows just how bad a manager he is when people are trying to prove that other managers we have had are worse. Just because he isn't as bad as some we have had, does not make him a good manager.

For me, I was never keen on hiring him from the outset and my opinion never really changed. To show that I am not stubborn and stuck to my views, this is in contrast to Danny Wilson, who won me over

 

[Tezza1889]

Nobody mentioning the elephant in the room then?

Adkins, Robson and Blackwell, all did more damage overall to the club than Nigel Clough... I didn’t like clough, but come on, that first season and the cup runs don’t put him in the dogshit bracket...

We were going down to the fourth weren’t we.....

 

[Harry's Game]

It was actually 2 very good cup runs.


I also don’t see why pursuing O’Grady was “bewildering”?

Can’t argue with the rest though.

O'Grady was bang average, as can be seen from where he is plying his trade now, yet we fixated on him so long that summer that we ignored and missed out on other targets and panic bought the aforementioned YouTube hero Higdon.

To put the tin hat on it we did it again in January, finally got him on a months loan only to see him recalled almost immediately.. utter madness.

 

[Harry's Game]

Nobody mentioning the elephant in the room then?

Adkins, Robson and Blackwell, all did more damage overall to the club than Nigel Clough... I didn’t like clough, but come on, that first season and the cup runs don’t put him in the dogshit bracket...

We were going down to the fourth weren’t we.....

Only Robson screwed us more financially. Ask Jim Phipps.

 

[west_yorks_blade]

Nobody mentioning the elephant in the room then?

Adkins, Robson and Blackwell, all did more damage overall to the club than Nigel Clough... I didn’t like clough, but come on, that first season and the cup runs don’t put him in the dogshit bracket...

We were going down to the fourth weren’t we.....

So in the battle of the gash, he wasn’t the gashist. But he was still gash.

 

[DeanLearner'sCat]

Overall, his time here was a mixed bag, but I generally like Clough. Certainly the best Nigel we've had as manager.

 

[him behind you]

But its more to do with tactics ,motivation ,training methods ,fitness coaching ,not with actually playing for a manager because of his personality ,if a manager stops you using the best tools at your disposal then you have no option.
Coutts for example played average for Clough mainly due to his injury problems ,he went backwards for Adkins because he played him out of position in a formation and style which was hopeless ,he didn't suddenly start playing well for Wilder just because its Chris Wilder ,he found a formation and style that suited his game. At this level it isn't down to liking people.

Don't totally disagree with your example of Coutts, although there were times under both Adkins and Clough when he simply looked like he didn't care which is down to attitude as well as being played in the right way.

However we'll have to agree to disagree about players and this professional attitude. Players have such massive egos and they know they can force a manager out through their performances if they want to (for whatever reason) and i really believe that it's happened on several occasions around the country.

 

[TTMeysh]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned to me the most striking feature of Clough's tenure, his aversion bordering on hatred of any player over average height. A classic psychological study in 'short man syndrome'.