Crushed at the turnstiles

[Bladepicker]

Referring to the OP, I didn't see any evidence of anyone getting crushed at the turnstiles, not on that video, or from my own experience on the day. I think if we want to talk about the mishandling of the crowd by police, which caused fans to miss a significant part of the game, then fair enough. But let's not dress this up like some kind of Hillsboro disaster mark II, because it wasn't, and whilst the OP gained good dramatic effect for the subject title of the thread it doesn't appear to be what this topic is actually about?

I arrived on Leppings Lane about ten to one. There were lots of Wednesday supporters around at that time and the police were filtering United supporters over to the away turnstiles on the right hand side. There were no queues at the turnstiles at that time and no one getting crushed. In the period between then and kick off, there were frequent announcements to the fans on Leppings Lane, asking them to make their way into the ground immediately as the game was starting shortly. In other words, there were a lot of Wednesday fans just hanging around to goad the United fans and generally make life unpleasant as we entered the ground.

It was that presence of Wednesday fans in large numbers outside the turnstiles on Leppings Lane that was the problem. I think if the police had marched the tram loads of Blades towards the ground at that point all hell would have broken loose. The Wednesday fans were not outside the turnstiles because there weren't enough turnstiles open for them to enter the ground. They were outside the turnstiles because they wanted to be there and taunt incoming United fans.

I don't know what powers the police have to make fans enter the ground who don't want to - I suppose they have none? But they do have powers of dispersal. I would imagine if they'd tried to exercise those powers of dispersal they'd have created an even bigger problem though. It seems to me that they decided to let natural dispersal take place, knowing that most fans would move to enter the ground before kick off - and then advance the visiting fans to the ground. I can understand why they would do that - but I can't understand why the kick off wasn't delayed or why Wednesday didn't have more turnstiles open to minimise delays for the fans and possible injury.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but I don't really see what the police did wrong - it seems to me they were just trying to preserve law and order? Same with the keeping fans in at the end. I was quite happy to stay behind 15 minutes in the knowledge that I would be able to walk back safely to my car.

I think the blame here should not be that fans were held back as I get why they did that, but that they didn't have appropriate plans in place for crowd management AGAIN which allowed this situation to arise.

That is the fault of SWFC and SYP - why only have that awful flimsy barrier?
Why not form a wall of officers between the crowd? And, if none of that was an option, why allow Wednesday to even open the lower tier for home fans so there was a mix - it was the first derby for 6 years? It was never going to be fans swapping stories of memries past over a clotted cream scone and a brew was it? Why not have more trams on for a special occasion - why not make sure officers clear potential flashponts on the tram route? And only 2 turnstyles open? What a joke.

Fact is hundreds of Blades not wanting to cause any trouble have missed nearly a 5th of an event they paid £42 quid for when they set off an hour before the game to get there on the tram due to issues that anyone with a modicum of common sense could have anticiapted beforehand.

It is unfair and they deserve a refund from Sheffield Wednesday and an apology from South Yorkshire Police.

 

[grafikhaus]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but I don't really see what the police did wrong - it seems to me they were just trying to preserve law and order? Same with the keeping fans in at the end. I was quite happy to stay behind 15 minutes in the knowledge that I would be able to walk back safely to my car.

I think you are missing something. Once again, SYPD did everything to inconvenience fans (who had paid over £40), deliberately raised the tension in the crowd and were probably hoping it would kick off. That muppet copper quoting 'Section 3' (a catch-all 'law' that can get anybody arrested for doing fuck all), the sight of those coppers with batons raised - all designed to lead to trouble and justify their existence.

About 5 years ago in the 'derby' match at the Lane, the coppers ignored around 50 pig fans who - waiting till our lads were in the ground - went round attacking women, children and old people. Were the coppers unaware that Sunday's game was high risk? Or were they more concerned with playing with their fucking 'hate wall' and making sure their pals from Durham Constabulary got their overtime?

Look, I'm no cop-hater. Without them we'd all be fucked. But you'd think that - after 1989 - they'd be on their best behaviour. But no. What have they learned in nearly 30 years? It would appear fuck all.

 

[Good Pinch Of Snuff]

they hate us and gave us allot of shit, we took a coach down from Pitsmoor, feel for the lads that were late getting in

 

[metalblade]

After watching the excellent Shoreham View Vlog I can only see yet more incompetence from South Yorkshire Police and SWFC and yet more lies by SYP to justify that incompetence. Little wonder after being crammed onto trams and held a mile or so away from the stadium that people were struggling to breathe and had to resort to kicking windows out or pressing the emergency button to force the doors open. SYP chose to treat the smaller group of supporters with utter contempt rather than deal with the real issue of pig fans waiting to cause trouble at Hillsborough corner and on Leppings lane. Two turnstiles open at kick off time, old style turnstiles too with a person checking tickets Jesus Wept this is 2017 not 1987 have SWFC learnt nothing from April 1989? have they spent nothing on that end of the ground except for a tarpaulin since April 1989? Still a disaster waiting to happen in that West stand nearly 30 years on from the last one.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Referring to the OP, I didn't see any evidence of anyone getting crushed at the turnstiles, not on that video, or from my own experience on the day. I think if we want to talk about the mishandling of the crowd by police, which caused fans to miss a significant part of the game, then fair enough. But let's not dress this up like some kind of Hillsboro disaster mark II, because it wasn't, and whilst the OP gained good dramatic effect for the subject title of the thread it doesn't appear to be what this topic is actually about?

I arrived on Leppings Lane about ten to one. There were lots of Wednesday supporters around at that time and the police were filtering United supporters over to the away turnstiles on the right hand side. There were no queues at the turnstiles at that time and no one getting crushed. In the period between then and kick off, there were frequent announcements to the fans on Leppings Lane, asking them to make their way into the ground immediately as the game was starting shortly. In other words, there were a lot of Wednesday fans just hanging around to goad the United fans and generally make life unpleasant as we entered the ground.

It was that presence of Wednesday fans in large numbers outside the turnstiles on Leppings Lane that was the problem. I think if the police had marched the tram loads of Blades towards the ground at that point all hell would have broken loose. The Wednesday fans were not outside the turnstiles because there weren't enough turnstiles open for them to enter the ground. They were outside the turnstiles because they wanted to be there and taunt incoming United fans.

I don't know what powers the police have to make fans enter the ground who don't want to - I suppose they have none? But they do have powers of dispersal. I would imagine if they'd tried to exercise those powers of dispersal they'd have created an even bigger problem though. It seems to me that they decided to let natural dispersal take place, knowing that most fans would move to enter the ground before kick off - and then advance the visiting fans to the ground. I can understand why they would do that - but I can't understand why the kick off wasn't delayed or why Wednesday didn't have more turnstiles open to minimise delays for the fans and possible injury.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but I don't really see what the police did wrong - it seems to me they were just trying to preserve law and order? Same with the keeping fans in at the end. I was quite happy to stay behind 15 minutes in the knowledge that I would be able to walk back safely to my car.

You're missing lots, obviously because you weren't involved in the hold back. People who were know what happened and basically the police have lied about the events. They crammed as many people on the trams as they could, irrespective of safety. The heat was terrible although as you say, not life threatening so it's obviously no big deal. The officers on the tram, when they realised there was general concern -as well as anger - rather than hooliganism, had to stick to what they'd been told to do. One from out of the area admitted SYPs actions were a shambles.

The amount of police on the street to get us could have been cut in half and the other half could have dispersed people at the ground, people who they themselves admit were looking for trouble. Wonder if the Section3 threat was used at Leppings Lane3. SYP didn't make this up on the hoof. It was planned, that was pretty clear from the outset.

It wasn't the police who closed the turnstiles. They weren't happy about it and it was them who ordered more to be open, so this isn't a anti police rant.

I had no issue with being held back, that made perfect sense but when I read total bollocks about the police doing nothing wrong from someone who wasn't involved and put through it, it pisses me off.

Read Foxys post, the trouble at Hillsborough corner comment was clearly a lie as the only people there were police, and we could all see it clearly.

 

[Sean Thornton]

After watching the excellent Shoreham View Vlog I can only see yet more incompetence from South Yorkshire Police and SWFC and yet more lies by SYP to justify that incompetence. Little wonder after being crammed onto trams and held a mile or so away from the stadium that people were struggling to breathe and had to resort to kicking windows out or pressing the emergency button to force the doors open. SYP chose to treat the smaller group of supporters with utter contempt rather than deal with the real issue of pig fans waiting to cause trouble at Hillsborough corner and on Leppings lane. Two turnstiles open at kick off time, old style turnstiles too with a person checking tickets Jesus Wept this is 2017 not 1987 have SWFC learnt nothing from April 1989? have they spent nothing on that end of the ground except for a tarpaulin since April 1989? Still a disaster waiting to happen in that West stand nearly 30 years on from the last one.

Nail on head. Then they lie about it on twitter.

 

[Argentinemanager]

Our local press will do nothing to highlight any problems, try to contact the liverpool echo, this will probabally get the authorities to act

 

[Liverpool blade]

From what I've seen, it's plainly evident that SYP & SWFC have learned absolutely nothing from that fateful day in 89. I still can't see why they've allowed home fans into the bottom tier but when Leeds go there they haven't!!. The ground wasn't even full and if they'd given us extra tickets as in previous years they would have received extra revenue!!. Leppings lane hasn't been improved since 89 apart from putting seats in!!. Other clubs like the blades have made significant changes in the wake of the Hillsboro report. Swfc have basically shrugged their shoulders and said oh well pity that 96 fans died as a part result of our actions but let's carry on as though nothing happened!!. As the saying goes-- you can't teach the pork!!. Just feel for the fans who missed the kickoff. Utb

 

[blade too long]

I cant believe Sheffield Wednesday would play fast and loose with crowd safety
And Police telling porkies ,,,, at hillsborough , as if

They only gave us 6 per cent of the ground how on earth could they make such a pigs ear of it
Id write to the FA or League if it had happened to me and send the video
there was absolutely no reason to deny entry the rest of the crowd were in place

send the video to the Stir see if the piggy loving sods make anything of it

one day they might learn

 

[Sean Thornton]

I cant believe Sheffield Wednesday would play fast and loose with crowd safety
And Police telling porkies ,,,, at hillsborough , as if

They only gave us 6 per cent of the ground how on earth could they make such a pigs ear of it
Id write to the FA or League if it had happened to me and send the video
there was absolutely no reason to deny entrythe rest of the crowd were in place

send the video to the Stir see if the piggy loving sods make anything of it

one day they might learn

They didn't deny entry to anyone. They didn't have enough turnstiles open. FFS why exaggerate to that extent when it's not needed.

They weren't responsible for the policing either.

 

[elgoog44]

From what I've seen, it's plainly evident that SYP & SWFC have learned absolutely nothing from that fateful day in 89. I still can't see why they've allowed home fans into the bottom tier but when Leeds go there they haven't!!. The ground wasn't even full and if they'd given us extra tickets as in previous years they would have received extra revenue!!. Leppings lane hasn't been improved since 89 apart from putting seats in!!. Other clubs like the blades have made significant changes in the wake of the Hillsboro report. Swfc have basically shrugged their shoulders and said oh well pity that 96 fans died as a part result of our actions but let's carry on as though nothing happened!!. As the saying goes-- you can't teach the pork!!. Just feel for the fans who missed the kickoff. Utb

Having read so much of the Hillsborough independent report, I could not agree more, the reluctance to do anything to improve, both leppings lane and entrance to it, plus the turnstiles which are pretty much the same as they were in April 1989 makes you wonder why they have this blind side to that tragic event, you look at the stadium and can see the issues with it with out probing too much, if you look at the photos and videos of the entrance in 1989 and now there is very little that has changed and that is an insult to the 96 that died, the reforms were as you say taken on board by all clubs and things moved forward, Bramall lane as changed so much since 1989, while Hillsborough remains stuck in a time warp.

 

[metalblade]

One would have thought our resident Star reporter would be onto this story like a shot especially as it would seem that serious Health and Safety lessons have not been learned in the last 28 years and that one party to the failings are yet again telling lies and making up stories to justify their actions.

 

[west_yorks_blade]

They didn't deny entry to anyone. They didn't have enough turnstiles open. FFS why exaggerate to that extent when it's not needed.

They weren't responsible for the policing either.

They weren't responsible for policing and the police weren't responsible for the actions of SWFC employees.

But both displayed many shortcomings and should have been communicating with each other to ensure that a small away support in a high profile game, with known flashpoints were able to get to the ground safely and on time. Add to this that we are talking about Hilsborough and particularly Leppings Lane, nothing more needs to be said.

 

[nopigfansintown]

My lad and friend were caught up in this. I could only get one ticket so had friend take him for his 1st away derby experience.They got in the ground around 35 minutes late. His words were that there was a crush on the slow trams, and he was struggling with his breathing. Luckily, due to past smoke bomb incidents at games he always carries his inhaler.When they arrived near the ground, after someone forced the doors, they held well back, due to the lack of turnstiles open and the clamour to get in the ground - which was only intensified by United's start. His words were: "there could be another disaster, so we're going to hold off mate; keep us updated on the score".

 

[Sean Thornton]

They weren't responsible for policing and the police weren't responsible for the actions of SWFC employees.

But both displayed many shortcomings and should have been communicating with each other to ensure that a small away support in a high profile game, with known flashpoints were able to get to the ground safely and on time. Add to this that we are talking about Hilsborough and particularly Leppings Lane, nothing more needs to be said.

People are going to stop listening when stupid comments like "denying entry" are made. The basic facts are clear, why claim something that's obviously not true, especially when you're thousands of miles away having no clue as to what actually happened.

Why muddy the waters with crap, just to have a go at them? It's a serious subject.

 

[Ricky]

From what I saw on the walk to the ground between 12:55-13:10 there was nothing more than a few naughty little boys running about around Hillsborough Corner, they were probably outnumbered by the police on the streets, increasingly so the closer you got to the ground.

There wasn't enough going on to justify anything close to the delay our fans had to put up with, and there should've been more than enough police to deal with any problems.

Then the situation with the turnstiles was utterly retarded.

 

[Revolution]

Having read so much of the Hillsborough independent report, I could not agree more, the reluctance to do anything to improve, both leppings lane and entrance to it, plus the turnstiles which are pretty much the same as they were in April 1989 makes you wonder why they have this blind side to that tragic event, you look at the stadium and can see the issues with it with out probing too much, if you look at the photos and videos of the entrance in 1989 and now there is very little that has changed and that is an insult to the 96 that died, the reforms were as you say taken on board by all clubs and things moved forward, Bramall lane as changed so much since 1989, while Hillsborough remains stuck in a time warp.

The whole stand should have been torn down after what happened.

The big problem is that the stadium is on an odd shaped plot of land with poor access from all angles save Penistone Road. Only moving will cure that.

 

[blade too long]

they didnt deny entry to anyone

They weren't responsible for the policing either.

I never intimated swfc controlled police actions
but to have only one gate open is indirectly denying entry
cant imagine it being the case at the lane to have one away turnstile open if the ticket allocation has been filled

its creating a crowd control problem when theres no reason to

 

[Sean Thornton]

I never intimated swfc controlled police actions
but to have only one gate open is indirectly denying entry
cant imagine it being the case at the lane to have one away turnstile open if the ticket allocation has been filled

Shut up you clown.

 

[blade too long]

Shut up you clown.

why clown

its a genuine safety concern
the police surely made those at the ground aware some fans would be late , if they communicate at all
to have one turnstile open when they know 500 or so still need entry is at best poor control

I was under some misaprehension then that police and stewards tried to work together

I expect any fan at any ground to have the decency to be let in if they pay the same as some opera tickets

 

[elgoog44]

The whole stand should have been torn down after what happened.

The big problem is that the stadium is on an odd shaped plot of land with poor access from all angles save Penistone Road. Only moving will cure that.

its very true, there are still amendments they could make even with the limited space available and as you rightly say it should have been torn down and a new stand put in its place with a beautiful memorial for the 96 that died.

I think Chansiri will eventually want to move if he stays at the club, he seems intent on changing everything else about the club, he is seemingly trying to erase there history and club part by part, I have no issue with that just hope no matter what happens the 96 are remembered correctly and respectfully.

 

[nopigfansintown]

What doesn't make sense to me is why were so few turnstiles left open, when the police knew the large volume of fans that had been delayed?
Even if they had to get the police or other staff to man other turnstiles, surely this should've been done? As for the various tram delays, and delays to people moving on foot, there seems to have been some sort of explanation.I'm not sure the majority would subscribe to that view though?

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

The Guardian's MBM commentary and their report on the game both made reference to what was happening outside. They might be interested in a follow up.

I'd send reports to the Liverpool 96 action group if you want some action.

 

[Yoonited]

I was also on one of those trams. Left the city centre with over an hour to kick off yet still wouldn't have seen kick off had I stayed on it. I was fortunate because I decided to get off and walk at the last stop they opened the doors at. Pretty much everyone else stayed on and from then on were trapped by the police.

The police were a total disgrace in how they dealt with our fans both before and after the game. Not to mention some of the bollocks on London Road afterwards. They had a very easy job to do and still fucked it up. But it's only what you'd expect from the most embarrassingly incompetent police force in the country.

It's absolutely fucking hideous given Hillsborough and SYP's history that crushing was ever a factor yesterday - both on the trams and now with this apparent issue with the turnstiles. It's staggering. I hope the media do pick up on it.

The tram ride back was horrendous. I broke my own matchday sweating record, and that's saying something. Why the hell they couldn't have arranged more trams at the correct times I have no idea. But after all, this is Sheffield isn't it.

I am not sure it is incompetence. I

Yeah i saw videos of Hillsborough corner, trams struggling to get through a potential flash point. The Police have also closed the Cricketers down in the past (others may be able to confirm this)

I'd love to have all the facts to put to the police, but to claim that their operation was a success needs to be challenged, even with basic info and short reports we can see that their operation was not considered a success by the away team fans. Its doubtful that the home fans considered it that way too.

The police will blame late arrivals, fans getting off trams, maybe even drunk fans.... I don't think its right to make comparisons to the events of almost 30 years ago. However, it would be good to know that the criteria which they use to claim the operation as a success.

The criteria they use is that Football Fans are beer swilling violent neanderthals, easily goaded into reaction that plays into their hands and justifies their actions and the label they adorn us with in the first place, leading to frustration and anger that could spill over at any time.A very clever ploy that works every time.

 

[JOEYDEE]

I've sent link to this thread to Liverpool Echo,and The Sun...lets see if they run with it !

 

[More Bladier than thou]

From what I've seen, it's plainly evident that SYP & SWFC have learned absolutely nothing from that fateful day in 89. I still can't see why they've allowed home fans into the bottom tier but when Leeds go there they haven't!!. The ground wasn't even full and if they'd given us extra tickets as in previous years they would have received extra revenue!!. Leppings lane hasn't been improved since 89 apart from putting seats in!!. Other clubs like the blades have made significant changes in the wake of the Hillsboro report. Swfc have basically shrugged their shoulders and said oh well pity that 96 fans died as a part result of our actions but let's carry on as though nothing happened!!. As the saying goes-- you can't teach the pork!!. Just feel for the fans who missed the kickoff. Utb

I see your point mate, however you are wrong about Leppings lane, outside the stand was completely redesigned to avoid crowd congestion. Inside, like you said, seats put in and barriers obviously gone. There is nowhere apart from the concourse to be crushed by crowd and the concourse is easily big enough to avoid that.

 

[nopigfansintown]

Excellent, informed update here: https://www.s24su.com/forum/index.php?threads/pre-match-issues-bit-of-an-update.58476/