Statues

[Torrix1889]

Statues should be reserved for people who have achieved greatness or changed the way people live their lives. There's very few in the footballing world who have achieved enough to have a statue in their honour and I agree with Vorpal....a lot of football related statues are erected out of nothing more than fashion...as a token of someones contribution to a club....which is OK I suppose but just cheapens the value of statues erected in honour of those that have really achieved something.

Brian Clough has a statue in Middlesbrough, Derby & Nottingham.... his record as a player and manager was exceptional.......but good enough to warrant a statue in 3 separate places? In Nottingham probably but Derby & Middlesbrough....I don't think so. His achievements at Boro and Derby were very good but exceptional, no. It stinks of each place wanting to claim Clough as "theirs".....dare I say there could have been a bit of the same in United's decision to honour Mr Dooley? That's certainly not a dig at the man by any means.

 

[ucandomagic]

I don't get this thing about football statues being bits of art, or even being there for the glorification of the person themselves.

When I go to The Lane with my grandson he sees the statue of Joe Shaw and it connects him to the history of the Club. For me the Club is about continuing those 128 years of social history, and having reminders of key points over that period helps - it isn't a glorification of an individual. I still look at that statue before every home game.

That's why I felt Needham, Hagan, Shaw, Currie, and an empty plinth for the future to walk past, would really lead us from past to present each time we passed by. They could all be on one statue of course like the Holy Trinity at Old Trafford.

But I guess I'm just a romantic old Blade who doesn't understand art.

UTB

 

[snootyfenooty]

If you are including me in " the minority of fans who have no idea by the sound of it what he did for the club " then you're way off the mark.

This is a delicate subject and I don't want to get in too deep but I can tell you that, during the time of his role of Managing Director, I had contacts at the club who worked closely with him.

With out going into too much detail ( although I could ) they generally didn't speak of his suitability for that role, or his performance in it , in such glowing terms as some on here appear to be doing.

This may not sit comfortably with the general perception of his overall abilities and contribution to the club, but is a fact nevertheless.

Regardless of this, I totally agree with others on here who have made the point that possibly the ultimate accolade at any football club, should only be given to players or managers to whom the word 'great ' can genuinely be attributed. In my time watching the Blades which started in 1947, they would be Joe Shaw. Jimmy Hagan, Tony Currie and John Harris.

Like yourself, I've been around a while too although looking at your synopsis not quite as long as you, so respect there my friend. However I must take issue with what you have to say about Dooley.

Unlike yourself, who you say had contacts at the club who worked closely with the man, I actually did work closely with the man when he kick-started the Development Fund, so my opinions are actually first hand, maybe even a tad biased because of this. He took the fund from a base of next to fuck all to that approaching the one he set up at the pigs, about £100k p.a. in a very short space of time, which was a fortune in those days. No doubt he ruffled a few feathers in the process of doing this, who knows, they may have been the contacts at the club you were alluding to. Add this to his skill in preventing the club from imploding in the 90's and subsequent eulogies from Bassett and Warnock and it makes you wonder where all this angst is coming from. He dedicated over 30 years of his life at the sharp end of the club.

Agree with you about Shaw, Hagan and Currie but not Harris as he didn't quite achieve their iconic status. Bassett wasn't as good a manager as Harris but he's definitely iconic so I would include him strangely enough. The post advocating Brown and Jags is a fucking joke so that's probably good enough reason why the fans shouldn't be allowed to get involved in stuff like this.

 

[Bert]

Statues should be reserved for people who have achieved greatness or changed the way people live their lives. There's very few in the footballing world who have achieved enough to have a statue in their honour and I agree with Vorpal....a lot of football related statues are erected out of nothing more than fashion...as a token of someones contribution to a club....which is OK I suppose but just cheapens the value of statues erected in honour of those that have really achieved something.

Brian Clough has a statue in Middlesbrough, Derby & Nottingham.... his record as a player and manager was exceptional.......but good enough to warrant a statue in 3 separate places? In Nottingham probably but Derby & Middlesbrough....I don't think so. His achievements at Boro and Derby were very good but exceptional, no. It stinks of each place wanting to claim Clough as "theirs".....dare I say there could have been a bit of the same in United's decision to honour Mr Dooley? That's certainly not a dig at the man by any means.

Clough was born and raised in Middlesbrough as well as playing for the local team. He is one of theirs.

 

[Isaw Joeshaw]

Like yourself, I've been around a while too although looking at your synopsis not quite as long as you, so respect there my friend. However I must take issue with what you have to say about Dooley.

Unlike yourself, who you say had contacts at the club who worked closely with the man, I actually did work closely with the man when he kick-started the Development Fund, so my opinions are actually first hand, maybe even a tad biased because of this. He took the fund from a base of next to fuck all to that approaching the one he set up at the pigs, about £100k p.a. in a very short space of time, which was a fortune in those days. No doubt he ruffled a few feathers in the process of doing this, who knows, they may have been the contacts at the club you were alluding to. Add this to his skill in preventing the club from imploding in the 90's and subsequent eulogies from Bassett and Warnock and it makes you wonder where all this angst is coming from. He dedicated over 30 years of his life at the sharp end of the club.

Agree with you about Shaw, Hagan and Currie but not Harris as he didn't quite achieve their iconic status. Bassett wasn't as good a manager as Harris but he's definitely iconic so I would include him strangely enough. The post advocating Brown and Jags is a fucking joke so that's probably good enough reason why the fans shouldn't be allowed to get involved in stuff like this.

I was interested to hear your first hand account and fully accept what you say about his role in the Development fund.

However, there is nothing in there which even remotely justifies the erection of a statue in his honour in the club car park, especially in preference to the others I mentioned . I always thought it was a huge mistake from day 1 and I think the time has now come when it should be quietly removed, placed elsewhere and replaced by one of our true heroes.

As for the Warnock / Basset eulogies, I struggling to remember the last time I heard a deceased person being slagged off at his own funeral and, in any event, neither of the aforementioned gentlemen are exactly behind the door when it comes to bullshit, are they ?

 

[snootyfenooty]

I was interested to hear your first hand account and fully accept what you say about his role in the Development fund.

However, there is nothing in there which even remotely justifies the erection of a statue in his honour in the club car park, especially in preference to the others I mentioned . I always thought it was a huge mistake from day 1 and I think the time has now come when it should be quietly removed, placed elsewhere and replaced by one of our true heroes.

As for the Warnock / Basset eulogies, I struggling to remember the last time I heard a deceased person being slagged off at his own funeral and, in any event, neither of the aforementioned gentlemen are exactly behind the door when it comes to bullshit, are they ?

You sound very bitter. I'll leave it at that.

 

[Isaw Joeshaw]

You sound very bitter. I'll leave it at that.

On this particular subject - guilty as charged. I feel a great injustice has been perpetrated which is an affront to much more deserving candidates.

 

[bornablade]

On this particular subject - guilty as charged. I feel a great injustice has been perpetrated which is an affront to much more deserving candidates.

It's not necessary to put forward the case for other candidates and only feel it strengthens the argument by the removal of another statue.

If you feel strongly about the installation of tributes to others then contact the club but leave Dooley out of it.

(Must admit I do like Vorpal's idea that statues are just a 'keeping up with the Jones's solution and as the original United we should be more original in our thinking)

 

[SUFC Handsworth]

Like yourself, I've been around a while too although looking at your synopsis not quite as long as you, so respect there my friend. However I must take issue with what you have to say about Dooley.

Unlike yourself, who you say had contacts at the club who worked closely with the man, I actually did work closely with the man when he kick-started the Development Fund, so my opinions are actually first hand, maybe even a tad biased because of this. He took the fund from a base of next to fuck all to that approaching the one he set up at the pigs, about £100k p.a. in a very short space of time, which was a fortune in those days. No doubt he ruffled a few feathers in the process of doing this, who knows, they may have been the contacts at the club you were alluding to. Add this to his skill in preventing the club from imploding in the 90's and subsequent eulogies from Bassett and Warnock and it makes you wonder where all this angst is coming from. He dedicated over 30 years of his life at the sharp end of the club.

Agree with you about Shaw, Hagan and Currie but not Harris as he didn't quite achieve their iconic status. Bassett wasn't as good a manager as Harris but he's definitely iconic so I would include him strangely enough. The post advocating Brown and Jags is a fucking joke so that's probably good enough reason why the fans shouldn't be allowed to get involved in stuff like this.

Don't think Jaggers or Browny are in the same category as some of the Blades legends of the past, however Jags most capped England player from our youth system and probably our best player this century, Browny deserves a statue just for that volley against the pigs. Many happy memories from watching both star for United, in contrast Dooley wanted to sell Deano to the pigs ... enough said.

 

[Bert]

Don't think Jaggers or Browny are in the same category as some of the Blades legends of the past, however Jags most capped England player from our youth system and probably our best player this century, Browny deserves a statue just for that volley against the pigs. Many happy memories from watching both star for United, in contrast Dooley wanted to sell Deano to the pigs ... enough said.

Jags wasn't a product of our youth system.

 

[BushBlade]

Jags wasn't a product of our youth system.

He's not even from Sheffield. If it had been my decision there'd have been no Dooley statue, just players who won something, like Needham. No TC etc.
But now the statue's there, leave it. It's not like we need the space.

 

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

I have followed this with interest, although it is a very marginal topic. It is a real problem that we have won nothing major since 1925, and statues should only be for truly historic contributions to the club's history. Looked at objectively, it is hard to make a case for any person connected with the club since then.
If it were possible, I would like to see outstanding servants of the club rewarded by Academy scholarships or trophies. A Hodgy trophy for the best goalie under 18? A Tony Kenworthy trophy for a penalty competition, played in front of the Kop on match day? Give the kids a sense of taking pens under pressure. A Chris Morgan prize for leadership on the pitch? Could be a nice trophy, plus bonus for scholars, or have the winning lads take cheques to the Children's Hospital or the season's charity. It would give them a sense of professional responsility.

 

[DifferentClass]

Brian Clough has a statue in Middlesbrough, Derby & Nottingham.... his record as a player and manager was exceptional.......but good enough to warrant a statue in 3 separate places? In Nottingham probably but Derby & Middlesbrough....I don't think so. His achievements at Boro and Derby were very good but exceptional, no. It stinks of each place wanting to claim Clough as "theirs".....

Well Clough was born in Boro and won a league title with Derby after taking them from second tier no hopers, so I'd say he's rather worthy of a statue in both places.

 

[Weasel]

For me there should be six statues on show at the Lane.

1 and 2. Needham and Gillespie as they were both club captains in an era when Utd won cups and had success whilst club captain was also instrumental in team selection and tactics (so not a million miles away from a modern day player manager role)

3. Harry Johnson as he is the record goalscorer for Utd (201 goals in just 313 games over 10 years) and also holds the record for most hattricks scored.

4. Joe Shaw as he holds our appearance record (631 games) which will probably never be broken.

5. One of the cricketing greats who appeared at the Lane for Yorkshire. This would be in homage to the white flannel game being played at the Lane for over 100 years. My vote would go with Jack Brown who made a record knock of 311 in 1897, in a record opening partnership of 378 with John Tunniclife v Sussex (it also happened to be part of Yorkshires record run score at the Lane with a total of 681 from 5 declared until cricket disappeared from the Lane). Sir Len Hutton also scored regular centuries and even a few double centuries at the crease at the Lane.

6. John Nicholson - most succesful manager in sufc history having been in charge when we had all 4 of our FA cup successes (and a fifth appearance where we lost to Spurs in 1901). He also served the club for 33 years (from 1899 to 1932) until his untimely death after being involved in a road accident on his way to watch Utd at Villa Park. He also turned down a lucrative job at Man City to remain at the club in 1926 and an estimated 6000 people attended his funeral.

I think any statues should generally be for sporting achievement at the Lane and not administrative roles (though i do not underestimate the vital role Dooley played in a particular turbulent and financially difficult part if our history). You could make a case for other non sporting individuals who are irretrievably linked to the Lanes past such as JB Wostenholme (first SUFC manager and the man who was in charge when we won the 1st division tithe in 1898) or Michael Ellison who leased the land that became the Lane from the Duke of Norfolk so without him there wouldn't be a Bramall Lane sporting arena at at. But if I was going to plump for a man worthy of a statue at the Lane then for me it it has to be John Nicholson - he was the man largely responsible in giving the club it's rich heritage and historical club success which is what gives us our pride in the club and was probably the reason the vast majority of our forefathers went to the Lane to watch the football rather than the cricket.

 

[Weasel]

Also to add, I also think the club could honour two of our greatest players (Hagan and Currie) by naming the club suites / bars after them. Quite apt really as even though their playing skills have long since disappeared from the Lane - they would still be associated with more pleasurable aspects of the Lane.

 

[Weasel]

Just another thought... (Yes i know it's early in the morning to be having so many but I have been up all night travelling and sat in airports)....

My recommendations would also cover a large part of our historical decades.

Pre turn of century - Jack Brown the cricketer and Nudge Needham.

1900s - Needham again

1910s - 20s Harry Johnson

1920s - 30s Billy Gillespie

1900 - 1930s John Nicholson

40s (not applicable as Hitler fucked this decade up good and proper)

1950s - the Jimmy Hagan bar

1960s - Joe Shaw

1970s - The Tony Currie bar

Thereafter if we ever do up the Kop and stick in a couple of small bars in there than id suggest that these can be called the 'Edwards n Morris' bar, and the 'Brian Deane' bar. If we open up a new catering area then this can be the 'Fatty Foulke' pie kiosk.

As for any new bogs being fitted in the ground then I would suggest that we have each bog trap 'dedicated' to a previous 'turd of the Lane'. If we have 11 traps in a row then we could name each one after each of Adkins side (Billy has an exception here) or we could just go for historical shit for each bog trap. The Martin Peters pisser, the Dean Hammond hell hole, the Barry Butlin bog, the options for shit ex Utd players being associated with new bogs at the Lane are almost endless.

 

[Silent Blade]

There was from me. Not because it was Dooley, but because it looked more like this man

View attachment 28520

 

[Tyler Durden]

For me there should be six statues on show at the Lane.

1 and 2. Needham and Gillespie as they were both club captains in an era when Utd won cups and had success whilst club captain was also instrumental in team selection and tactics (so not a million miles away from a modern day player manager role)

3. Harry Johnson as he is the record goalscorer for Utd (201 goals in just 313 games over 10 years) and also holds the record for most hattricks scored.

4. Joe Shaw as he holds our appearance record (631 games) which will probably never be broken.

5. One of the cricketing greats who appeared at the Lane for Yorkshire. This would be in homage to the white flannel game being played at the Lane for over 100 years. My vote would go with Jack Brown who made a record knock of 311 in 1897, in a record opening partnership of 378 with John Tunniclife v Sussex (it also happened to be part of Yorkshires record run score at the Lane with a total of 681 from 5 declared until cricket disappeared from the Lane). Sir Len Hutton also scored regular centuries and even a few double centuries at the crease at the Lane.

6. John Nicholson - most succesful manager in sufc history having been in charge when we had all 4 of our FA cup successes (and a fifth appearance where we lost to Spurs in 1901). He also served the club for 33 years (from 1899 to 1932) until his untimely death after being involved in a road accident on his way to watch Utd at Villa Park. He also turned down a lucrative job at Man City to remain at the club in 1926 and an estimated 6000 people attended his funeral.

I think any statues should generally be for sporting achievement at the Lane and not administrative roles (though i do not underestimate the vital role Dooley played in a particular turbulent and financially difficult part if our history). You could make a case for other non sporting individuals who are irretrievably linked to the Lanes past such as JB Wostenholme (first SUFC manager and the man who was in charge when we won the 1st division tithe in 1898) or Michael Ellison who leased the land that became the Lane from the Duke of Norfolk so without him there wouldn't be a Bramall Lane sporting arena at at. But if I was going to plump for a man worthy of a statue at the Lane then for me it it has to be John Nicholson - he was the man largely responsible in giving the club it's rich heritage and historical club success which is what gives us our pride in the club and was probably the reason the vast majority of our forefathers went to the Lane to watch the football rather than the cricket.

John and William Clegg would be nice too. Our founders and pivotal figures in the game, both locally and nationally.

 

[Silent Blade]

1910s - 20s Harry Johnson

Harry Johnson's debut was in October 1919.

 

[Silent Blade]

John and William Clegg would be nice too. Our founders and pivotal figures in the game, both locally and nationally.

Both played for Wendy. Charles (his first name was John but he was better known as Charles) was also Wendy's chairman and president

 

[Weasel]

Both played for Wendy. Charles (his first name was John but he was better known as Charles) was also Wendy's chairman and president

Would be contentious then to have these 2 then (but no more contentious than having Derek Dooley i suppose).

 

[Tyler Durden]

Both played for Wendy. Charles (his first name was John but he was better known as Charles) was also Wendy's chairman and president

Ah.

Give that one a miss then

 

[Weasel]

Harry Johnson's debut was in October 1919.

So he just sneaked in then....

OK we will just have Billy Gillespie covering the 1910s and 1920s then. Think he won his first Irish cap in 1911 and won them for nearly 20 years but I could be incorrect.

And I should clarify that I meant Harry Johnson Jnr in my original post as otherwise Utd would probably have a statue done of his old man Harry Johnson Senior who I believe was a wing half and not a striker. Harry Johnson Jnr was the main man.

 

[Silent Blade]

Would be contentious then to have these 2 then (but no more contentious than having Derek Dooley i suppose).

Am really not that bothered

 

[Silent Blade]

So he just sneaked in then....

OK we will just have Billy Gillespie covering the 1910s and 1920s then. Think he won his first England cap in 1911 and won them for nearly 20 years but I could be incorrect.

And I should clarify that I meant Harry Johnson Jnr in my original post as otherwise Utd would probably have a statue done of his old man Harry Johnson Senior whining believe was a wing half and not a striker. Harry Johnson Jnr was the main man.

Gillespie played for Ireland. He broke his leg in Sept 1914 (which was why he missed the 1915 FA Cup final) and wasnt back to his best until after the war according to what I had read. By the time he returned to league football his hair had gone!

 

[Weasel]

Gillespie played for Ireland

Yeh, I realised my mistake after I posted it and have already gone back and corrected my previous post! Didn't know the rest though re his broken leg. I know he was the skipper in the 1925 cup final and was by all accounts a very good and clever player for us. Have a picture at home which has Gillespie and Tunstall holding the 1925 fa cup between them which was taken during the winners parade back in Sheffield city centre.

I also read about him managing Derry??and having them change their colours to red and white stripes in homage to his adopted club and love of his professional life.

 

[Weasel]

By the time he returned to league football his hair had gone!

Just goes to show that even back then, having to watch Utd regularly gave you a shit load of stress and made you lose your hair.

 

[Silent Blade]

I also read about him managing Derry??and having them change their colours to red and white stripes in homage to his adopted club and love of his professional life.

Yes that is correct

This is the squad just before the start of the 1914-15 season. Billy is seated second from left

 

[Weasel]

Yes that is correct

This is the squad just before the start of the 1914-15 season. Billy is seated second from left

A rare picture of Billy with hair then. Does the picture also have the prolific Joe Kitchen on it (a goal every 2 games striker whilst at the Lane) and the unfortunate Jimmy Revill (KIA in April 1917)?

 

[Silent Blade]

A rare picture of Billy with hair then. Does the picture also have the prolific Joe Kitchen on it (a goal every 2 games striker whilst at the Lane) and the unfortunate Jimmy Revill (KIA in April 1917)?

Yes, Joe Kitchen is in the middle of the front row, Jimmy Revill is on the far right of the front row. First saw this photo in one of the programmes towards the end of the 1970/71 season