Chris Wilders quote

[larkymasher]

perhaps because hes had so many other clubs, a phenomena thats occurring to a lot lore these days , he wanted stability more than wages
in other words wanted a commitment, in return for a bit of loyalty

personally think it benefits us he wants to settle here, not just pull wages short term

It can be looked at many different ways Blade. Did Clarke just say all the right things to gain a favourable contract? Or does he genuinely want to be here for 3 years.
I can't answer my own point because i just don't know.
But as a betting man i would put a few pounds on that Clarke is not here more than 2 years.

 

[blade too long]

Sorry, remind me who Blackwell shipped out. I'm struggling. I seem to remember we got Hendrie out but didn't we have to take Stewart in return? I didn't think Robson did that badly in recruiting, he just couldn't shape them into a team. I think Blackwell managed to get them playing quite well, alright, very well and it's easier to shift players when they're in form, like Beattie.

20 Chris Armstrong SCO D 1.75 70 05-08-82 Newcastle upon Tyne Reading
8 Jonathan Stead ENG F 1.91 76 07-04-83 Huddersfield Ipswich T
18 Michael Tonge ENG M 1.83 75 07-04-83 Manchester Stoke C
18 Nathan Dyer ENG M 1.65 57 29-11-87 Trowbridge Southampton
25 Matthew Spring ENG M 1.83 72 17-11-79 Harlow Luton T
9 James Beattie ENG F 1.85 84 27-02-78 Lancaster Stoke C
8 Anthony Stokes IRL F 1.80 73 25-07-88 Dublin Sunderland
14 David Carney AUS D 1.80 70 30-11-83 Sydney Norwich C (On Loan)
19 Keith Gillespie NIR M 1.78 71 18-02-75 Larne Bradford C
29 Jordan Robertson
10 thats ten , all moved on before 2008 9 started

 

[Revolution]

20 Chris Armstrong SCO D 1.75 70 05-08-82 Newcastle upon Tyne Reading
8 Jonathan Stead ENG F 1.91 76 07-04-83 Huddersfield Ipswich T
18 Michael Tonge ENG M 1.83 75 07-04-83 Manchester Stoke C
18 Nathan Dyer ENG M 1.65 57 29-11-87 Trowbridge Southampton
25 Matthew Spring ENG M 1.83 72 17-11-79 Harlow Luton T
9 James Beattie ENG F 1.85 84 27-02-78 Lancaster Stoke C
8 Anthony Stokes IRL F 1.80 73 25-07-88 Dublin Sunderland
14 David Carney AUS D 1.80 70 30-11-83 Sydney Norwich C (On Loan)
19 Keith Gillespie NIR M 1.78 71 18-02-75 Larne Bradford C
29 Jordan Robertson
10 thats ten , all moved on before 2008 9 started

Beattie was sold mid way through 2008-9 and as it's your list I'm sure there are several other errors

 

[1danewhitehouse]

my reasoning
you posted a list of 20 several who are still here a large group were under 23s and you offered them up as more than half your argument that we cant get shot

so it matched the 10 I said was who we could offload,. from june to end of september by showing them there was no future in staying

not every footballer reacts like hammond , in fact hes the only one I can remember sticking their heels in
the others got nowhere near his money and would have had better futures elsewhere

if Blackwell managed to offload as many as he did when he took over , who were on contracts most managers , Adkins apart could have done the same

You have no idea how much we had to pay Woolford, J. Wallace, De Girolamo etc. to get them out of the door but sure, play pretend. Let's pretend our board would have sanctioned those payoffs for 20-30 players and then paid to replace them.


Summer of 08 I assume you mean?

Hulse, Tonge, Stead, Shelton all commanded fees suggesting they were reasonably in demand.

Gillespie left on a free but think he was out of contract and despised Blackwell. Carney went out on loan. Hendrie we had to take Jordan Steward in exchange.

No great exodus of senior players as far as I can see.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Plenty on here say Clarke has a bad attitude. It's not a huge leap of faith that if it's true, people in the game would be aware. Or maybe CW didn't? Or Knill? Possibly not mentioning him would be the best scenario but he actively credits him.

Billy no mates? No idea. Feel free to suggest it though.

Apparently he’s good friends with EEL. No idea about his relationship with the rest of the squad.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Anyone can make a comment after the event.

But the fact of the matter is at the time, Clarke at the time was a very good signing.
His record in league 1 is amongst the best and it was a sign of our ambition and intent.

No signings are gauranteed. All you can do is increase the odds of it being a success by buying "tried and tested". And Clarke is "tried and tested" in league 1.

Also I don't think our fans understand the type of player Clarke is.
Clarke is far more talented than Hanson. He's able to play as a loan striker and has the ability to score goals from nothing. He doesn't need good players around him. Hence why he's ALWAYS in demand in the lower leagues and can attract a high wage

When Clarke has played for us.. due his his talent he's tried the difficult worldly shot curved into the top corner or he's tried the ambitious difficult through ball. None of it has come off... so he's looked poor

It was interesting to see Hanson on Saturday. He's DOESN'T have half of talent of Clarke
So Hanson kept it nice and simple, he held it up well and played simple balls to our midfielders.
Meaning he was far more affective than Clarke. Hanson gave us a new dimension.

Clarke has had a poor start for us but it would be unfair to write him off yet.
The problem we have is that he's on a good contract and I suspect won't be in a rush to leave us unless we give him a decent pay off.

Loads of lower division clubs would have him but I doubt many clubs could afford him.

think there are a couple of other issues with Clarke.


1. The pressing game doesn’t come naturally to him. It’s like you can see the cogs turning in his head for him to realise he needs to go and close a player down whereas Done, Sharp, Hanson and Lavery just do it automatically.


2. I think he likes being a big fish in a small pond (just the impression I get, not verifiable). He’s been less effective for us, pigs, wolves, QPR, etc. but been lethal for Chessy, Southend, Bury, Cov, Scunny etc. He seems to revel in being the main man. I get the impression he doesn’t like playing 2nd fiddle to an out and out goalscorer which has been the case here. Hanson and Done, although much more limited, are team players. Lavery still remains my preferred partner for Sharp though.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

View attachment 23047View attachment 23048
now thats a gulf

So you cite Bassett’s back to back promotions as a reason we can do it now and then post an article illustrating how the financial gulf between the divisions has massively widened since Bassett’s era to illustrate your point?

 

[1danewhitehouse]

I have no doubt Clarke has something to offer and he may well still be here in the summer, my point was that a 3 year contract to a player with 18 moves in 13 years is a very strange decision. Whether that is permanent moves or loans, there is something that tells most football watchers that he finds it difficult to get his head down and settle in one place.
That is only my Opinion. If others feel a 3 year contract was a good move then fine. My opinion is certainly not a comment after the event it was very much my comment when we signed him in the first place.

I think most of us felt 3 years was far from ideal but took the view that if he can score the goals to get us up this season then it will be job done and we could probably move him on so if that’s what it took to get him here, so be it.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

just noticed you slipped Evans in

really

and players wilders kept scougal wallace

Yes really, Ioan Evans, the centre half from the academy that was moved on last season.

And wilder has also loaned Wallace out for the season whilst Scougall has fallen away from the first team.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

It's only on here this "bad attitude" is known then? In the game despite all those clubs he's been at, no one in professional football would be aware of it?

I haven't mentioned keeping him, his salary or his age. No need to divert to make a point I haven't mentioned. The very simple question I asked Blademan was - after he tried to alter the point - was "do you think Wilder is being honest" relating to his comments about Clarkes excellent attitude. It's yes or no. I'll ask you the same.

I suppose that you could argue that some factors could lead people to question his attitude


1. Nomadic career

2. Coming to the brink of blows with Di Canio on the pitch.

3. Languid style & body language (Paging Dr Lickspittle).

4. His own admission that he’s grown up recently indicating he perceives his attitude to have been poor in the past.

5. Fans at numeruous clubs perceiving that he is a good player “when he fancies it”.


Whether all of that constitutes a “bad attitude” is subjective I suppose but I get the impression that if he had been a model professional, with the ability he has, he would have probably enjoyed a career as a reasonably successful championship striker.

 

[Sheffsteel]

think there are a couple of other issues with Clarke.


1. The pressing game doesn’t come naturally to him. It’s like you can see the cogs turning in his head for him to realise he needs to go and close a player down whereas Done, Sharp, Hanson and Lavery just do it automatically.


2. I think he likes being a big fish in a small pond (just the impression I get, not verifiable). He’s been less effective for us, pigs, wolves, QPR, etc. but been lethal for Chessy, Southend, Bury, Cov, Scunny etc. He seems to revel in being the main man. I get the impression he doesn’t like playing 2nd fiddle to an out and out goalscorer which has been the case here. Hanson and Done, although much more limited, are team players. Lavery still remains my preferred partner for Sharp though.

Excellent points.
Never thought about point 2 but it does seem a coincedance.

Also very logical argument in the post above to prove your point.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Apparently he’s good friends with EEL. No idea about his relationship with the rest of the squad.

Which EEL? The world beater we must sign or the Nyron Nosworthy tribute act?

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Which EEL? The world beater we must sign or the Nyron Nosworthy tribute act?

Both of them.

To be fair the first time I was EEL, I said "He's got a touch of the Nyron's about him". I know your point was about the fickle nature of this forum but EEL has shown both sides to his game.

 

[BushBlade]

20 Chris Armstrong SCO D 1.75 70 05-08-82 Newcastle upon Tyne Reading
8 Jonathan Stead ENG F 1.91 76 07-04-83 Huddersfield Ipswich T
18 Michael Tonge ENG M 1.83 75 07-04-83 Manchester Stoke C
18 Nathan Dyer ENG M 1.65 57 29-11-87 Trowbridge Southampton
25 Matthew Spring ENG M 1.83 72 17-11-79 Harlow Luton T
9 James Beattie ENG F 1.85 84 27-02-78 Lancaster Stoke C
8 Anthony Stokes IRL F 1.80 73 25-07-88 Dublin Sunderland
14 David Carney AUS D 1.80 70 30-11-83 Sydney Norwich C (On Loan)
19 Keith Gillespie NIR M 1.78 71 18-02-75 Larne Bradford C
29 Jordan Robertson
10 thats ten , all moved on before 2008 9 started

Dyer and Spring were loan signings that Blackwell made. I don't think he can be credited for getting rid by simply not renewing their loans. Beattie, Tonge, Stead and Armstrong were decent players for us. I'd be surprised if he wanted to sell Beattie and I know he didn't want to sell Tonge because I heard him say as much on the radio when disgusting transfer deadline day with Pulis.

Gillespie was out of contract.

Not sure about Stokes, I've erased him from my mind. But he was a loan player so it was as easy to get rid as it was to get rid of Sammon. You just don't renew the loan.

So he got rid of Carney and the youth team player who had personal problems. The rest were sold to willing buyers or came to the end of their loans. It's a lot easier to sell things people want to buy than sell things no-one wants.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

20 Chris Armstrong SCO D 1.75 70 05-08-82 Newcastle upon Tyne Reading
8 Jonathan Stead ENG F 1.91 76 07-04-83 Huddersfield Ipswich T
18 Michael Tonge ENG M 1.83 75 07-04-83 Manchester Stoke C
18 Nathan Dyer ENG M 1.65 57 29-11-87 Trowbridge Southampton
25 Matthew Spring ENG M 1.83 72 17-11-79 Harlow Luton T
9 James Beattie ENG F 1.85 84 27-02-78 Lancaster Stoke C
8 Anthony Stokes IRL F 1.80 73 25-07-88 Dublin Sunderland
14 David Carney AUS D 1.80 70 30-11-83 Sydney Norwich C (On Loan)
19 Keith Gillespie NIR M 1.78 71 18-02-75 Larne Bradford C
29 Jordan Robertson
10 thats ten , all moved on before 2008 9 started

All moved on before the season started eh?

So Beattie wasn't sold in January 09?

Tonge wasn't sold on 1st September?

Nathan Dyer wasn't a player Blackwell himself took on loan that season but decided not to keep? Same for Spring, Stokes, etc.? By that reckoning, we should laud Nigel Adkins for getting rid of Connor Sammon!

Gillespie's contract was terminated in January 2009.

Jordan Robertson was loaned out, no cancellation of contract that season.

Carney was loaned out to Norwich in January 2009.

Stead's move to Ipswich was made permanent in September 2008.

So apart from the fact that we didn't get rid of one of those players before the start of the season, it's a really good post!

 

[blade too long]

All moved on before the season started eh?

So Beattie wasn't sold in January 09?

Tonge wasn't sold on 1st September?

Nathan Dyer wasn't a player Blackwell himself took on loan that season but decided not to keep? Same for Spring, Stokes, etc.? By that reckoning, we should laud Nigel Adkins for getting rid of Connor Sammon!

Gillespie's contract was terminated in January 2009.

Jordan Robertson was loaned out, no cancellation of contract that season.

Carney was loaned out to Norwich in January 2009.

Stead's move to Ipswich was made permanent in September 2008.

So apart from the fact that we didn't get rid of one of those players before the start of the season, it's a really good post!

again stats supplied by soccerstats

all moved out in 08 09
still all went before season past jan
you claimed impossible to move any that apart
the actual exact dates are immaterial


your claim was if they had contracts you were stuck with all of them
and only Beattie MOVED YOU SAID

 

[blade too long]

http://www.thestar.co.uk/sport/foot...arke-receives-support-from-his-boss-1-8374640

looks like CW still has room for Leon

 

[ChipButtyBlade]

http://www.thestar.co.uk/sport/foot...arke-receives-support-from-his-boss-1-8374640

looks like CW still has room for Leon

That will mean a fully fit squad,not including the acrobat.

 

[Keen Blade]

It's only on here this "bad attitude" is known then? In the game despite all those clubs he's been at, no one in professional football would be aware of it?

I haven't mentioned keeping him, his salary or his age. No need to divert to make a point I haven't mentioned. The very simple question I asked Blademan was - after he tried to alter the point - was "do you think Wilder is being honest" relating to his comments about Clarkes excellent attitude. It's yes or no. I'll ask you the same.

I have no idea , I don't manage Clarke. But it strikes me as significant that Wilder , having signed Hanson , has taken pains to commend publicly Clarke's attitude at this particular juncture.
Why do you think he has done that ?
I don't recall him stating that Clarke was playing through the pain barrier in the period when he was getting a start. But that could be my faulty memory.
I obviously can't accuse CW of dishonesty without any clear means of supporting it.
All I can comment on - and it is a gossip forum after all - is that there seem to be all sorts of issues with Clarke and one wonders what the truth is.
For example , most would say that he hasn't struck a partnership with Billy.
Then CW says it's rubbish that he can't play with Billy.
Then he signs Hanson.
Then there's an ankle injury / pain barrier.
Clarke creates conjecture , against a background of us age & long contract.
But let's move on.
It's not significant to our table topping progress , for which CW can take much credit.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

again stats supplied by soccerstats



you claimed impossible to move any that apart

and only Beattie MOVED YOU SAID

Your telling lies again. Please tell me where I said these things?

I said you could do it with a handful of players but not a squad full of them. Decent players in demand were sold (Beattie, Tonge, Shelton (OK, the decent part is questionable but with his pace and age, people were willing to take a chance on him), Armstrong etc.). Unwanted players were much harder to move on. Hendrie was loaned out to Blackpool before we eventually managed to get rid but had to take Jordan Stewart in exchange. Carney was another we had to loan out without a permanent taker. Very similar to the massive list I posted earlier that Adkins loaned out (getting shut permanently of a few where he could- Alcock, Higdon, Dimaio etc.).

 

[larkymasher]

Though academy lads, they were still pros.

I would suggest most will have been on £500 a week with added incentives.

Youth scholars at 16 are on £140 a week, some get lodged, others get travel paid on top. That's for two years, after that its pro deal...or no deal.
National Minimum wage is over £250 a week full time, so these lad will be on more when everything is taken into account.

All about adds up.

Scholars at SUFC are on £100 a week. Ist year Pros are given £250 a week. 2nd year Pros £300 a week. Only after their scholarship is finished do any lads signing a Pro deal whilst still a scholar get his Pro wage.

Down the road at Pigswill scholars get £150 a week, £400 a week first year pro and £650 a week second year. If a scholar signs his Pro deal whilst still a scholar it kicks in on the day he signs.

IMO we don't really do that much to keep our young players. Certainly it leaves the door open for clubs to come in and cherry pick them.

Brookes, who most agree is a real talent has been offered £400 a week to sign a new contract........ Obviously he has not signed it yet and it leaves the door open to be transfered. It is also strange that since he has declined his new contract offer that he is further away from the first team than at any stage this season.......

 

[blade too long]

Your telling lies again. Please tell me where I said these things?

I said you could do it with a handful of players but not a squad full of them. Decent players in demand were sold (Beattie, Tonge, Shelton (OK, the decent part is questionable but with his pace and age, people were willing to take a chance on him), Armstrong etc.). Unwanted players were much harder to move on. Hendrie was loaned out to Blackpool before we eventually managed to get rid but had to take Jordan Stewart in exchange. Carney was another we had to loan out without a permanent taker. .

of course you loan them out

thats the point , free up the wages
I said you get them out the door by what ever means available

 

[blade too long]

Wolves got McDonald on the cheap. Not sure if they paid a big fee for anyone else. What did they pay for Clarke and Dicko? That said, their wages for the likes of Sakho, Clarke, McDonald, Henry, Edwards etc. will have been huge for this level.


Wigan on the other hand paid about a million each for Wildschutt and Grigg as well as signing loads more players.

to be fair wigan were still receiving parachute payments and sold players for far more than they spent

1 July 2015 GK Scott Carson Derby County Undisclosed
1 July 2015 CB Rob Kiernan Rangers Undisclosed
1 July 2015 LW James McClean West Bromwich Albion £1,500,000
1 July 2015 CF Oriol Riera Deportivo La Coruña Undisclosed
2 July 2015 CF Andy Delort SM Caen Undisclosed
20 July 2015 RB James Tavernier Rangers Undisclosed
20 July 2015 LB Aaron Taylor-Sinclair Doncaster Rovers Undisclosed
20 July 2015 CF Martyn Waghorn Rangers Undisclosed
31 July 2015 RB James Perch Queens Park Rangers Undisclosed
1 February 2016 MF Don Cowie Heart of Midlothian Undisclosed
1 February 2016 GK Richard O'Donnell Bristol City Undisclosed

 

[ShockingBadBuy]

again stats supplied by soccerstats

all moved out in 08 09
still all went before season past jan
you claimed impossible to move any that apart
the actual exact dates are immaterial


your claim was if they had contracts you were stuck with all of them
and only Beattie MOVED YOU SAID

Sorry, what does this mean ??

 

[blade too long]

Sorry, what does this mean ??

It means Blackwell managed to move out players on contracts 08 09 . some were sold some loaned out with a view to selling , but 10 first team squad members were moved out
last season there were again 10 or so that if there was the will , from Adkins , we could have off loaded
but Adkins just left them sat around doing nothing

 

[Sean Thornton]

Sorry, what does this mean ??

Who said what now?

 

[1danewhitehouse]

to be fair wigan were still receiving parachute payments and sold players for far more than they spent

1 July 2015 GK Scott Carson Derby County Undisclosed
1 July 2015 CB Rob Kiernan Rangers Undisclosed
1 July 2015 LW James McClean West Bromwich Albion £1,500,000
1 July 2015 CF Oriol Riera Deportivo La Coruña Undisclosed
2 July 2015 CF Andy Delort SM Caen Undisclosed
20 July 2015 RB James Tavernier Rangers Undisclosed
20 July 2015 LB Aaron Taylor-Sinclair Doncaster Rovers Undisclosed
20 July 2015 CF Martyn Waghorn Rangers Undisclosed
31 July 2015 RB James Perch Queens Park Rangers Undisclosed
1 February 2016 MF Don Cowie Heart of Midlothian Undisclosed
1 February 2016 GK Richard O'Donnell Bristol City Undisclosed

Far more than they spent? So you know how much those undisclosed fees were? The only fee I see quoted there is £1.5 million which is less than the combined costs of Grigg and Wildschutt before we get started on Morsy, Power etc.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

of course you loan them out

thats the point , free up the wages
I said you get them out the door by what ever means available

No, you said that you can cancel their contracts if you want to. I've pointed you to a list of players Adkins got out (over 20 of them) either on loan or permanent. I pointed out that many were loaned out because they couldn't be shifted permanently. You constantly went on about how you can if you're streetwise pointing to Kevin Blackwell as the example to follow. You then claimed he moved a list of 10 players on before the start of 08/09 season when in fact he hadn't moved any of them on by that point and 3 of said players were players he had on loan who just returned to their parent clubs when their loans were up. Now you're changing it to say you loan them out which is exactly what we did last season. I don't think you even know what your point is anymore to the extent you are having to lie about things I allegedly said.

 

[BushBlade]

Scholars at SUFC are on £100 a week. Ist year Pros are given £250 a week. 2nd year Pros £300 a week. Only after their scholarship is finished do any lads signing a Pro deal whilst still a scholar get his Pro wage.

Down the road at Pigswill scholars get £150 a week, £400 a week first year pro and £650 a week second year. If a scholar signs his Pro deal whilst still a scholar it kicks in on the day he signs.

IMO we don't really do that much to keep our young players. Certainly it leaves the door open for clubs to come in and cherry pick them.

Brookes, who most agree is a real talent has been offered £400 a week to sign a new contract........ Obviously he has not signed it yet and it leaves the door open to be transfered. It is also strange that since he has declined his new contract offer that he is further away from the first team than at any stage this season.......

Sorry Larky but so he should be. If he's not going to commit to us then we shouldn't be wasting resources on him. It's a privilege to play for us and we've developed him well after being rejected. He should think very carefully about arguing over a couple of hundred quid now, when the rewards could be so much greater in the future.
He should know that if he signs and a big club comes in with a decent offer, we won't hold him back.

 

[Grizzly blade]

Scholars at SUFC are on £100 a week. Ist year Pros are given £250 a week. 2nd year Pros £300 a week. Only after their scholarship is finished do any lads signing a Pro deal whilst still a scholar get his Pro wage.

Down the road at Pigswill scholars get £150 a week, £400 a week first year pro and £650 a week second year. If a scholar signs his Pro deal whilst still a scholar it kicks in on the day he signs.

IMO we don't really do that much to keep our young players. Certainly it leaves the door open for clubs to come in and cherry pick them.

Brookes, who most agree is a real talent has been offered £400 a week to sign a new contract........ Obviously he has not signed it yet and it leaves the door open to be transfered. It is also strange that since he has declined his new contract offer that he is further away from the first team than at any stage this season.......

That's interesting, because different to what my son is going to be on next season with another club. However I know someone who will be a first year scholar with United and they will be putting him up in digs, which obviously will cost the club.
I can only go on what happens at my lads club but the structure you describe is different. I thought it would be pretty similar everywhere to be honest.