Lack of Movement Up Front

[Melton Blade]

It was so frustrating on Tuesday to see how few options the front 2 gave the midfield. Their work rate was appalling. They didn't come short for inter play or make crossover runs on the angles etc etc. As a result the only option was to slowly try to create an overlap / crossing position on the flank - which often failed to beat the front man.

Our midfield set up does lack a runner who will burst into the box between the front two as a goal threat (Lampard runs) as Coutts and Fleck tend to sit and pass rather than time a forward run to give Duffy an option to slide them in.

But with Sharp and Clarke so static we are easily blocked in the middle. If one or other comes short - a midfielder can snipe behind etc.

Billy just wants to be a Fox in the box - the stats will show he didn't work hard enough. Clarke isn't tough enough as a heading threat at the back post - JOC was much more threatening in the air and could have had 2 goals on his limited time in the box. If we can't always slide a ball across the 6 yard box for a Billy knock in - then we need to stand it up on the back post for the big lad to head in - but Clarke doesn't look like he can bully a centre back to get on that. Call for an HMS Shipperly or Deano!!

One final moan. Harry did great and deserves a run but putting him on the right effectively ended Freeman as a threat on the right flank - there was no threat down the left all night (Lafferty was anonymous) - putting Harry on the left would have stretched them both sides.

UTB

 

[SwissBlade]

Sounds strange as one thing about the strikers from what i've seen recently is that the movement has been brilliant

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

That's why Sharp and Done works because Done drags defenders all over the place, harries them all the time leaving more space for a 'central' Billy.

When Leon plays, he generally takes up the central position and Billy doesn't seem to know what to do.

 

[SwissBlade]

That's why Sharp and Done works because Done drags defenders all over the place, harries them all the time leaving more space for a 'central' Billy.

When Leon plays, he generally takes up the central position and Billy doesn't seem to know what to do.

Against Chesterfield we really struggled in the first half. Billy was too preoccupied with playing the central role and Evart had an easy game battering him... Movement down the right, from Done was great, Duffy was poor.

Second Half, Billy started wide right and cut in, playing Done's role and Done played through the middle, again getting some joy against the big Centre Halves. When Clarke came on, Done dropped back to a wider left slot leaving Billy and Clarke to do the running up front and their movement was excellent.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

Against Chesterfield we really struggled in the first half. Billy was too preoccupied with playing the central role and Evart had an easy game battering him... Movement down the right, from Done was great, Duffy was poor.

Second Half, Billy started wide right and cut in, playing Done's role and Done played through the middle, again getting some joy against the big Centre Halves. When Clarke came on, Done dropped back to a wider left slot leaving Billy and Clarke to do the running up front and their movement was excellent.

but since then.........

 

[cooperblade]

Their work rate was appalling.

I thought the problem was that they worked really hard when we didn't have the ball (Clarke in particular, his closing down / pressing was superb in the first half hour) and then got really lazy when we did have it. Clarke won a couple of really good headers quite early on, both of which landed in a great position but Sharp either didn't anticipate them or just didn't chase them (sure it was the former).

I think all of the strikers in the squad offer us something but we don't have a partnership that really works yet. I think it's more likely that we'll try and find someone who can play with Sharp than try a pairing from the existing options that doesn't include him.

 

[I should coco]

Billy just wants to be a Fox in the box - the stats will show he didn't work hard enough

It's not just that he 'wants' to be a fox in the box, that is his reason for being picked. A bloke with 12 goals in 20 games is clearly doing something right, so criticising him for not doing more outside the box seems daft to me.

Currie was sometimes accused of being 'lazy' but there were others in the team to do the running and he was there to play masterful passes. Asking him to be a 'box to box' player would have killed him.

I'm not directly comparing Sharp to Currie, but making a point that both are/were good at specific things. To get them to do something else is not sensible if it affects the reason you picked them in the first place.

Be careful what you wish for. Basham runs around a lot but we wouldn't want a team of 10 Chris Basham's and a keeper.

 

[Tyler Durden]

It's not just that he 'wants' to be a fox in the box, that is his reason for being picked. A bloke with 12 goals in 20 games is clearly doing something right, so criticising him for not doing more outside the box seems daft to me.

Currie was sometimes accused of being 'lazy' but there were others in the team to do the running and he was there to play masterful passes. Asking him to be a 'box to box' player would have killed him.

I'm not directly comparing Sharp to Currie, but making a point that both are/were good at specific things. To get them to do something else is not sensible if it affects the reason you picked them in the first place.

Be careful what you wish for. Basham runs around a lot but we wouldn't want a team of 10 Chris Basham's and a keeper.

I wouldn't want a team with one Chris Basham. He's awful.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

I thought the problem was that they worked really hard when we didn't have the ball (Clarke in particular, his closing down / pressing was superb in the first half hour) and then got really lazy when we did have it. Clarke won a couple of really good headers quite early on, both of which landed in a great position but Sharp either didn't anticipate them or just didn't chase them (sure it was the former).

I think all of the strikers in the squad offer us something but we don't have a partnership that really works yet. I think it's more likely that we'll try and find someone who can play with Sharp than try a pairing from the existing options that doesn't include him.

That was the strange thing for me, Moore aimed for Clarke every time so they must have planned it so how could Billy not know what was coming ?

League 1 defenders as a whole will much prefer to play against Clarke than Done and whilst Clarke on paper potentially offers more as a striker (big 'un, little 'un approach), from what I've seen, we are a better, and harder to cope with, team with Billy and Done. Given Done's work rate, give him 60 minutes then bring Clarke on would be the approach for me.

 

[sitwell]

The clue is in the nickname someone has given to the forward who makes a difference. Runaraound might be derogatory but it is essential.

 

[BigBed]

This is the reason I'd be playing Chapman, he, I'm sure, could run defenders ragged, quick, skillful and he can whip the ball in, oh and he can score and isn't scared to have a go.

 

[SwissBlade]

but since then.........

Can't disagree with that. Just think that there is something there that does work but the problem is that it will work in particular games.

The irony is that because Done wasn't scoring, people were complaining that he should be dropped... when he gets dropped people complain that he's not playing...

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

Can't disagree with that. Just think that there is something there that does work but the problem is that it will work in particular games.

The irony is that because Done wasn't scoring, people were complaining that he should be dropped... when he gets dropped people complain that he's not playing...

True, but the 'stats against Clarke' are starting to build up. May be a coincidence but for me, the stats don't lie in this case.

 

[georgebernardshaw]

The clue is in the nickname someone has given to the forward who makes a difference. Runaraound might be derogatory but it is essential.

The thing that struck me about Tuesday was the number of passes to a static player, as opposed to a player running on to the pass. This could be because Walsall played a pressing game (very well), and space became hard to find.

 

[SwissBlade]

True, but the 'stats against Clarke' are starting to build up. May be a coincidence but for me, the stats don't lie in this case.

To be pedantic you generally need 23 data points or more to see a pattern....

 

[DronnieBlade]

To be pedantic you generally need 23 data points or more to see a pattern....

So we should wait till April to realise what is already widely accepted and, IMHO, very clear then ?

Might this be a tad too late ??

It dunt work. The reasons are there. The "problem" is,even to the lay person, becoming increasingly obvious.

UTB

 

[SwissBlade]

So we should wait till April to realise what is already widely accepted and, IMHO, very clear then ?

Might this be a tad too late ??

It dunt work. The reasons are there. The "problem" is,even to the lay person, becoming increasingly obvious.

UTB

The point was being made for perspective... its about taking a balanced view

 

[Woodwardfan]

It was so frustrating on Tuesday to see how few options the front 2 gave the midfield. Their work rate was appalling. They didn't come short for inter play or make crossover runs on the angles etc etc. As a result the only option was to slowly try to create an overlap / crossing position on the flank - which often failed to beat the front man.

Our midfield set up does lack a runner who will burst into the box between the front two as a goal threat (Lampard runs) as Coutts and Fleck tend to sit and pass rather than time a forward run to give Duffy an option to slide them in.

But with Sharp and Clarke so static we are easily blocked in the middle. If one or other comes short - a midfielder can snipe behind etc.

Billy just wants to be a Fox in the box - the stats will show he didn't work hard enough. Clarke isn't tough enough as a heading threat at the back post - JOC was much more threatening in the air and could have had 2 goals on his limited time in the box. If we can't always slide a ball across the 6 yard box for a Billy knock in - then we need to stand it up on the back post for the big lad to head in - but Clarke doesn't look like he can bully a centre back to get on that. Call for an HMS Shipperly or Deano!!

One final moan. Harry did great and deserves a run but putting him on the right effectively ended Freeman as a threat on the right flank - there was no threat down the left all night (Lafferty was anonymous) - putting Harry on the left would have stretched them both sides.

UTB

I agree with so much in the OP but I cannot agree that Clarke and Sharp have not got good movement. Sharp has always been an active player and Clarke always has when he's played against us.

When the opposition take us on and there is space up front both players are always showing for the ball. However it has become a trend that the opposition are giving up the midfield and forming two deep banks of defenders. That changes the whole dynamics and I'm afraid we respond to that with a slow, predictable buld up which features Fleck and Couuts taking an age to pass a slow ball out wide. Freeman on the right does try to build something but he's not a winger who can get to the bye-line. Lafferty on the left offers nothing much at all, in fact he's at his happiest passing the buck to O'Connell who has far too much crossing to do ( from way out) for a defender, normally a centre half.

Only late in the game that's not going well does Coutts enter the final third of the field and I must say that Fleck has disappointed me since the Bradford game when he was outstanding.. That slow build up, always across the faces of the opposition, usually out to a non-winger must really piss off any striker, probably to the point of just accepting that the service when it comes will be a long, high cross from deep, way out wide.

This is a nightmare scenario for Sharp who hardly competes in the air for high crosses. Clarke too is not a conventional target man, he's not just a battering ram, he's got a deft touch and plenty of skill. He competes hard in the air but the opposition give him a hard time in a packed penalty area and he's the sort that doesn't get much sympathy from referees therefore he's cancelled out.

 

[DronnieBlade]

I agree with so much in the OP but I cannot agree that Clarke and Sharp have not got good movement. Sharp has always been an active player and Clarke always has when he's played against us.

When the opposition take us on and there is space up front both players are always showing for the ball. However it has become a trend that the opposition are giving up the midfield and forming two deep banks of defenders. That changes the whole dynamics and I'm afraid we respond to that with a slow, predictable buld up which features Fleck and Couuts taking an age to pass a slow ball out wide. Freeman on the right does try to build something but he's not a winger who can get to the bye-line. Lafferty on the left offers nothing much at all, in fact he's at his happiest passing the buck to O'Connell who has far too much crossing to do ( from way out) for a defender, normally a centre half.

Only late in the game that's not going well does Coutts enter the final third of the field and I must say that Fleck has disappointed me since the Bradford game when he was outstanding.. That slow build up, always across the faces of the opposition, usually out to a non-winger must really piss off any striker, probably to the point of just accepting that the service when it comes will be a long, high cross from deep, way out wide.

This is a nightmare scenario for Sharp who hardly competes in the air for high crosses. Clarke too is not a conventional target man, he's not just a battering ram, he's got a deft touch and plenty of skill. He competes hard in the air but the opposition give him a hard time in a packed penalty area and he's the sort that doesn't get much sympathy from referees therefore he's cancelled out.

Deft

UTB

 

[DronnieBlade]

The point was being made for perspective... its about taking a balanced view

And I was being pedantic. Sorry.

I work in numbers so they rule my world !! I understand exactly what you meant.

But in this case, 23 + is entirely unnecessary. IMHO.

UTB

 

[Caseh]

They both have good movement, the problem is they both have the instinct to make the same movements, so neither of them are making their natural movements. Against tired defenders it can work because they are both quality strikers for this League, but from the start I don't see how it will ever work effectively. Clarke is a big lad, but he doesn't want the ball in the air.

 

[Cerberus Blade]

Sounds strange as one thing about the strikers from what i've seen recently is that the movement has been brilliant

Not at all. Clarke has been constipated for weeks and Sharp just doesn't have enough fibre in his diet.

 

[Woodwardfan]

They both have good movement, the problem is they both have the instinct to make the same movements, so neither of them are making their natural movements. Against tired defenders it can work because they are both quality strikers for this League, but from the start I don't see how it will ever work effectively. Clarke is a big lad, but he doesn't want the ball in the air.

Sorry Caseh, I would not wish to be disrespectful but the two players are as different as chalk and cheese, same runs -no way.

Wilder bought Clarke to play with Sharp and then he got Lavery as insurance.

 

[coaxingstar71]

Can't disagree with that. Just think that there is something there that does work but the problem is that it will work in particular games.

The irony is that because Done wasn't scoring, people were complaining that he should be dropped... when he gets dropped people complain that he's not playing...

That's because the majority of football fans haven't got a scooby doo about how the game is played. He missed a few chances therefore he must be dropped...... ffs.

Fortunately CW does know how the game is played.

 

[Caseh]

Sorry Caseh, I would not wish to be disrespectful but the two players are as different as chalk and cheese, same runs -no way.

Wilder bought Clarke to play with Sharp and then he got Lavery as insurance.

But they do play the same. I said before the season started that if he planned to play them together, he had bought the wrong player.. And oh look, he bought the wrong player.

 

[BushBlade]

But they do play the same. I said before the season started that if he planned to play them together, he had bought the wrong player.. And oh look, he bought the wrong player.

I think what you're saying is that they play the same role, which I agree with. They both want to be the main striker who gets on the end of things, box players. They're not the same as players but essentially do very similar things. I think both benefit from having a player next to them who'll run the channels, press defenders, create space for them. Basically, Done with goals.
Saying that about Done, Billy had to do the 'Done job' for Beattie under Robson (and Blackwell when he picked him) and his goal scoring suffered.

 

[Woodwardfan]

I think what you're saying is that they play the same role, which I agree with. They both want to be the main striker who gets on the end of things, box players. They're not the same as players but essentially do very similar things. I think both benefit from having a player next to them who'll run the channels, press defenders, create space for them. Basically, Done with goals.
Saying that about Done, Billy had to do the 'Done job' for Beattie under Robson (and Blackwell when he picked him) and his goal scoring suffered.

Good post but I think Clarke prefers to drop deeper than Sharp does. He likes to play with a partner beyond him to head or play the ball on to and then follow up for the return.

Clarke at Chesterfield played exactly in that ro and he did v us for Bury at the Lane last season.

 

[Melton Blade]

Good post but I think Clarke prefers to drop deeper than Sharp does. He likes to play with a partner beyond him to head or play the ball on to and then follow up for the return.

Clarke at Chesterfield played exactly in that ro and he did v us for Bury at the Lane last season.

 

[BushBlade]

Good post but I think Clarke prefers to drop deeper than Sharp does. He likes to play with a partner beyond him to head or play the ball on to and then follow up for the return.

Clarke at Chesterfield played exactly in that ro and he did v us for Bury at the Lane last season.

I think Billy has a tendency to drop deeper too, and play with his back to the goal.

Obviously Clarke has the aerial advantage for the flick ons, which makes him different to Billy, but I think he'd prefer balls to feet. Both he and Billy quite like to roll defenders or, as you say, lay it off.

Not identical but pretty similar.

 

[Snowman]

Can't disagree with that. Just think that there is something there that does work but the problem is that it will work in particular games.

The irony is that because Done wasn't scoring, people were complaining that he should be dropped... when he gets dropped people complain that he's not playing...

You name and shame these damned people Swiss!