The mathematics of the long ball

[itsinyerblood]

For those who clearly derive their pleasure from watching a ball kicked high and long, why not go to your local park, put a Blades shirt on a young kid (always mindful not to be viewed as somewhat strange in a sexually depraved kinda way) and ask said kid to kick the ball high and long for 90 minutes? You'll save your admission fee, you'll derive immense pleasure from watching a football being kicked in the way you prefer, and you'll never grasp that football can be played with high levels of skill and imagination. Perhaps you apply this to all areas of your life? Maybe you apply an industrial approach to most things which might explain why you prefer a simplified, as opposed to simple, approach to what has been called "the beautiful game". Can anyone describe where the beauty lies in watching the same, single approach to a ball being (at best) hoofed forward in the hope of finding a target? It's a bit like knowing there is a vast celebration of language at your disposal but choosing to ignore the rules of such a creative form of communication, instead preferring to depend on a limited number of words because you can't be bothered to see beyond this approach?

Of course there should be a place for all types of football, but my preference is to watch something that aspires to skillful football rather than the limitations of an approach that these days is easily countered by a dominant centre-half. I don't think this is a wish too far, do you? I expect disappointment, this is what happens when you follow a team like SUFC, but we currently have a team that aspires to play football in the manner I wish to see the game played. It's been a long wait, but with what we're being served up this season it's a wait I'm happy to have been part of. UTB

 

[DronnieBlade]

Football, like life, evolves and changes and the older element on here like me, remember the days of Harris when we played a quick passing game. At the moment the Klopp inspired gegenpress is tactic of the moment. Interestingly, one of the ways being advocated to counter this is to play more of a long ball game, putting the ball high into the pressing teams half to switch the point of pressing, so a gegen-gegenpress!

Other things to take into account is the skill and quality level of players. With limited resources, limited tactics are available and a way of achieving far more than the sum of the parts was the Bassett way. I've said elsewhere we have a total dearth of qualified coaches in England compared to Spain, Germany and Italy.

England 1,400 coaches

Italy 2,300 coaches

France 3,400 coaches

Germany 7,000 coaches

Spain 15,500 coaches

Given those numbers of coaches, there must be plenty of kids getting into the professional game who have had limited contact and time with suitable qualified people. Given that, a limited technical ability in our player isn't that surprising.

As with the OP, an excellent insightful post Sir. Especially the bit about qualified coaching numbers. Explains loads IMHO.

Slightly worrying that most of the sensible / logical posting on this thread is coming from southern shandy drinkers WalthamstowBlade and SouthEssex Blade rather than us gravy loving Northerners

UTB

 

[DronnieBlade]

For those who clearly derive their pleasure from watching a ball kicked high and long, why not go to your local park, put a Blades shirt on a young kid (always mindful not to be viewed as somewhat strange in a sexually depraved kinda way) and ask said kid to kick the ball high and long for 90 minutes? You'll save your admission fee, you'll derive immense pleasure from watching a football being kicked in the way you prefer, and you'll never grasp that football can be played with high levels of skill and imagination. Perhaps you apply this to all areas of your life? Maybe you apply an industrial approach to most things which might explain why you prefer a simplified, as opposed to simple, approach to what has been called "the beautiful game". Can anyone describe where the beauty lies in watching the same, single approach to a ball being (at best) hoofed forward in the hope of finding a target? It's a bit like knowing there is a vast celebration of language at your disposal but choosing to ignore the rules of such a creative form of communication, instead preferring to depend on a limited number of words because you can't be bothered to see beyond this approach?

Of course there should be a place for all types of football, but my preference is to watch something that aspires to skillful football rather than the limitations of an approach that these days is easily countered by a dominant centre-half. I don't think this is a wish too far, do you? I expect disappointment, this is what happens when you follow a team like SUFC, but we currently have a team that aspires to play football in the manner I wish to see the game played. It's been a long wait, but with what we're being served up this season it's a wait I'm happy to have been part of. UTB

You from darn sarf an all ?

Making far too much sense !!!

UTB

 

[itsinyerblood]

You from darn sarf an all ?

Making far too much sense !!!

UTB

Too fuckin' right........I believe that Mr SEB and Mr Walthy are originally from Sheffield, whereas I travelled the reverse route. My downfall was watching the majestic pairing of Jones and Birchenall, once hooked there was no turning back.

 

[DronnieBlade]

Too fuckin' right........I believe that Mr SEB and Mr Walthy are originally from Sheffield, whereas I travelled the reverse route. My downfall was watching the majestic pairing of Jones and Birchenall, once hooked there was no turning back.

Ah.

I see a pattern developing here

UTB

 

[SouthEssexBlade]

As with the OP, an excellent insightful post Sir. Especially the bit about qualified coaching numbers. Explains loads IMHO.

Slightly worrying that most of the sensible / logical posting on this thread is coming from southern shandy drinkers WalthamstowBlade and SouthEssex Blade rather than us gravy loving Northerners

UTB

Oi!!

Real ale drinker merely here on missionary service!

And a further consideration as to why our game evolved like it did and Spain and Germany et al went a different route, go right back to heysel and the ban from European competition. That isolation increased the propensity for 'long ball' tactics as the pace of the English game began to increase with no check brought about by competition against differently operating Europeans. The insularity allowed for alternative views to Charles Hughes and others to be easily muted, this was being effective in the English league for the smaller teams (Liverpool, Everton and the like still sticking to a passing tactical game) to get some success. So the England team eventually gets a midfield of Ince, Palmer, Thomas and others grafting, scrapping because they usually do no more than helping the ball forward as quickly possible, always struggling against teams passing through the midfield rather than over it.

Enough from me, for more on this subject read the book I recommended by David Winner.

 

[Kenilworth]

Why have Spain dominated the world of football in the recent past ?

Did they have 11 genuinely all time greats on the pitch and were just kind of lucky at this particular moment in time ?

Why have England, by comparison, failed so miserably ?

The answer is 100% down to the culture in which young elite players are coached from an early age.

In England, we go down the route of moulding athletes in to footballers. In Spain, bluntly, they do not. This is a fundamental difference in ethos and is indisputable. What's also indisputable is the comparisons in what are ultimately the fruits of your labour.

England has over the last 20 years fallen so far behind its scary. The reasons why are there and clear for all.

To suggest a possession based game doesn't work is so far off the mark it's scary how any person of sound mind could possibly conclude otherwise.

Now, to add balance and going back to the days of John Beck, the venerable Lord Bassett and Bergen Blades Norwegian pals, it IS possible to play direct football and for said style to be somewhat effective. Its just less effective overall.

So what the OP has said is fundamentally sound in its premise, but like most theory, it's never 100% bang on.

UTB

Bollocks
Not what people have said, either.
Possession for the sake of it is not the answer.

Anyway - "Germans."

Sorts your theory out.

 

[Kenilworth]

As good an OP as I have ever had the priveledge to read. Bravo Sir.

My cap suitably doffed.

UTB

He didn't write it. Just posted it
Put your cap back on

 

[Mallinder]

I think the experience of Blades supporters is contrary to this finding. The only relative level of success was gained under Bassett and Warnock, both advocates of the principals of Reep, and especially Charles Hughes. That can cloud the judgement somewhat on it not being effective and winning.




You would have to read a little more about John Harris who may disagree with your sentiments.

 

[SouthEssexBlade]

Read on dear boy, read on!

 

[Pinchy]

Bollocks
Not what people have said, either.
Possession for the sake of it is not the answer.

Anyway - "Germans."

Sorts your theory out.

You're not seriously suggesting that Bayern Munich base their philosophy on ragamufhins like Beck and Bassett? I suspect not but if so, that's too daft to laugh at. Like all great teams the Germans pass the ball. So do the Spanish, Italians. South Americans and all the rest of the world outside the S2 hinterland.

 

[Pinchy]

Right. Let's end this nonsense. There IS a right way to play football. It's the way all the great teams have played down the years and will continue to do so. It's pass and move. Simple. If Hoof and Hope were the answer that's how Barca and Co would play. "Gerritintbox Do Nascimento you tosser", would be the familiar refrain on the Copacabana.

Don't take it from me. Take it from the professional managers and players who know the game far better than we do. They speak of the "right way" constantly. Tufty, I'm delighted to say, uses the phrase regularly. They don't mean fucking alehouse Hoof! They mean passing football, on the deck, not in the clouds.

Meanwhile in the wilderness of S2, a long forgotten race put in their ear plugs, don a cloth cap, feed the whippet and salivate over Wimbledon and Watford videos...

Kick it Long; Kick it Hard; Kick it High.

 

[Tyler Durden]

Bollocks
Not what people have said, either.
Possession for the sake of it is not the answer.

Anyway - "Germans."

Sorts your theory out.

Spot on.

 

[alcoblade]

Right. Let's end this nonsense. There IS a right way to play football. It's the way all the great teams have played down the years and will continue to do so. It's pass and move. Simple. If Hoof and Hope were the answer that's how Barca and Co would play. "Gerritintbox Do Nascimento you tosser", would be the familiar refrain on the Copacabana.

Don't take it from me. Take it from the professional managers and players who know the game far better than we do. They speak of the "right way" constantly. Tufty, I'm delighted to say, uses the phrase regularly. They don't mean fucking alehouse Hoof! They mean passing football, on the deck, not in the clouds.

Meanwhile in the wilderness of S2, a long forgotten race put in their ear plugs, don a cloth cap, feed the whippet and salivate over Wimbledon and Watford videos...

Kick it Long; Kick it Hard; Kick it High.

Strange that people seem to unanimously enjoy Wilder's brand of football - which sort or debunks the straw man that people want to see the ball kicked high and hard, doesn't it? The style you refer to was actually just your interpretation of the call for what we're seeing now.

The difference being that most of us (nudge nudge Pinchy ) didn't write Wilder's style and ability off before he came.

UTB

 

[Tyler Durden]

Best motto in football

 

[Kenilworth]

You're not seriously suggesting that Bayern Munich base their philosophy on ragamufhins like Beck and Bassett? I suspect not but if so, that's too daft to laugh at. Like all great teams the Germans pass the ball. So do the Spanish, Italians. South Americans and all the rest of the world outside the S2 hinterland.

No.
You know I wouldn't, Pinch.

I would much rather watch the way the Germans play than the tikka takka Spanish style that takes it way too far to the extreme of the continuum.

The piece in the OP was stating that Reep was 100% wrong and ruined English football - then ventured that possession play - the way that Spain do it - was the answer - therefore, making just the same type of misinformed assumption based on stats that nowhere near cover all the complexities and variables of the game.

Anyway - see my post on Goal Mouth action on page 1. That's what matters otherwise the contest is as dull as dishwater. Those are my thoughts. Adapt, work fecking hard (all world class players do that otherwise they wouldn't be) play to the strengths of what you have, mix it up if you can.

Consider boxing.
I like to see skill and precision but it's also good to see a pair slug it out once in a while. If all boxing contests went the distance and were awarded on points it would be a really dull sport.

You wouldn't want to do it missionary every time you got a chance to 'jump on,' would you?

 

[Pinchy]

Strange that people seem to unanimously enjoy Wilder's brand of football - which sort or debunks the straw man that people want to see the ball kicked high and hard, doesn't it? The style you refer to was actually just your interpretation of the call for what we're seeing now.

The difference being that most of us (nudge nudge Pinchy ) didn't write Wilder's style and ability off before he came.

UTB

The beauty of being a Blade, not Bladey, is that you don't get giddy about players and managers on the basis of where they were born or which team they support.

I thought Wilder was a Bladey appointment. I saw his Oxford team and thought it ragged and unsophisticated (a huge number of Oxford fans - there's a contradiction in terms for you! - were unimpressed by CW and not sorry to see him go). I looked at his 15 years of, let's face it, mediocrity in management.

Where I went wrong was to pay insufficient regard to what he achieved most recently - I guess managers can be in and out of form much like players - see Adkins. I underestimated what he did at Northampton and the way they played. If he was ever a Hoofer (as a manager; he certainly was not as a player) he's clearly thought better of it and now speaks of the "right way" and puts it into practice (within the limitations of the talents of lower league players).

To be fair to me, and I know that's contrary to S2 thinking, I reconsidered quite early into his tenure (see, I can speak footballese) and said so.

I'm very optimistic he will take us out of this league. His antecedents dictate that there must be a question mark against him at Championship level but I'm content to worry about that when we get there.

 

[Pinchy]

No.
You know I wouldn't, Pinch.

I would much rather watch the way the Germans play than the tikka takka Spanish style that takes it way too far to the extreme of the continuum.

The piece in the OP was stating that Reep was 100% wrong and ruined English football - then ventured that possession play - the way that Spain do it - was the answer - therefore, making just the same type of misinformed assumption based on stats that nowhere near cover all the complexities and variables of the game.

Anyway - see my post on Goal Mouth action on page 1. That's what matters otherwise the contest is as dull as dishwater. Those are my thoughts. Adapt, work fecking hard (all world class players do that otherwise they wouldn't be) play to the strengths of what you have, mix it up if you can.

Consider boxing.
I like to see skill and precision but it's also good to see a pair slug it out once in a while. If all boxing contests went the distance and were awarded on points it would be a really dull sport.

You wouldn't want to do it missionary every time you got a chance to 'jump on,' would you?

I agree with you to an extent mate. The irony of course is that Bassett, Hughes and Co were pretty (catch the irony there...) one-dimensional themselves weren't they? Go on, admit it....it will do you good.

 

[itsinyerblood]

No.
You know I wouldn't, Pinch.

I would much rather watch the way the Germans play than the tikka takka Spanish style that takes it way too far to the extreme of the continuum.

The piece in the OP was stating that Reep was 100% wrong and ruined English football - then ventured that possession play - the way that Spain do it - was the answer - therefore, making just the same type of misinformed assumption based on stats that nowhere near cover all the complexities and variables of the game.

Anyway - see my post on Goal Mouth action on page 1. That's what matters otherwise the contest is as dull as dishwater. Those are my thoughts. Adapt, work fecking hard (all world class players do that otherwise they wouldn't be) play to the strengths of what you have, mix it up if you can.

Consider boxing.
I like to see skill and precision but it's also good to see a pair slug it out once in a while. If all boxing contests went the distance and were awarded on points it would be a really dull sport.

You wouldn't want to do it missionary every time you got a chance to 'jump on,' would you?

As per your boxing analogy Ken, I recall the superb Sugar Ray Leonard, one of the greatest practitioners of the sweet science, he could poke, retreat, land damaging body shots, and outbox almost anyone who stood before him. When called upon, he could embrace a tear-up, he could stand toe to toe and give as good as he got, for once the term 'Master' applies to one of the very best pugilists there's ever been.......as for your coy sexual allusions, you enjoy fucking you rascal you, with a bit of adventure thrown in to keep the flame burning.

Back to football, I too occasionally enjoy a game where tackling of the robust variety takes centre stage. Defensive skill is not quite a lost art, but it does seem to have lost the admiration it deserves. I'd like to think I can spot a great defender, no matter which part of the world they happen to play in. I've seen Maldini, as good as any defender there was, I've witnessed the great Bobby Moore (sorry you WHU-phobes), smooth as silk with excellent tactical awareness. The best central pairing I've ever seen were Hansen and Lawrenson. I know it may be difficult for those who see the BHS mannequin that comments on MOTD to imagine Lawrenson as a great footballer, but he had all you could ask for in a great defender, and IMO, a better player than Hansen. I'd go so far as to describe him as a thoroughbred, as good as the great Dutch defender, Rijkaard.

 

[Kenilworth]

I agree with you to an extent mate. The irony of course is that Bassett, Hughes and Co were pretty (catch the irony there...) one-dimensional themselves weren't they? Go on, admit it....it will do you good.

But Bassett had to work with a group of players that were never like the quality of the opposition in the First Div.

Having said that Deane and Agana were top draw and we had some really under appreciated players (Jock, Gannon and the like) to go with quality like Glynn Hodges and Alan Kelly.

No one will ever get me to knock Bassett and what he did for this club. We weren't one dimensional all the time but we didn't have the money to spunk on the likes of Gascoigne to outplay other teams. Never had that type of dosh. But we did have a good number of games where we did our football teams. Forest away 2-5, Southampton away, WBA away, Pigs away (Bobby Davidson).

Ken Furphy was the manager when I first started going to the Lane. We've had precious little to shout about in the intervening period - Bassett brought some much needed excitement and success into the club. I won't knock him for that.

 

[Pinchy]

No one will ever get me to knock Bassett and what he did for this club.

No, but credit me for trying at least...

 

[DronnieBlade]

Bollocks
Not what people have said, either.
Possession for the sake of it is not the answer.

Anyway - "Germans."

Sorts your theory out.

And can you give an example where possession for the sake of it is what I believe ?

And I couldn't care less who wrote it, posted it, invented it. its bang on the money. So I'll doff my cap accordingly, if you please !

You Sir are confusing entertaining with effective. The 2 are not mutually exclusive you know !

IMHO.

UTB

 

[Kenilworth]

And can you give an example where possession for the sake of it is what I believe ?

And I couldn't care less who wrote it, posted it, invented it. its bang on the money. So I'll doff my cap accordingly, if you please !

You Sir are confusing entertaining with effective. The 2 are not mutually exclusive you know !

IMHO.

UTB

Blades under Weir and Adkins.

The piece is mis-informed as it berates one style based on making assumptions on incomplete data and then proceeds to make other assumptions on a set of incomplete data / variables. It also blames the long ball for England not qualifying for competitions. That is countered very well in other responses (above) where we didn't qualify and didn't play long ball.

I am stating that entertaining is what matters and that goal mouth action is what brings entertainment regardless of how it gets there.
Watching one side have over 80% posession in a game is NOT entertainment. It's like watching a featherweight bout where one fighter cannot land a punch and the other one cannot put any power in a punch despite being highly accurate. They'd always win on points but it would be a borefest.

 

[DronnieBlade]

Blades under Weir and Adkins.

The piece is mis-informed as it berates one style based on making assumptions on incomplete data and then proceeds to make other assumptions on a set of incomplete data / variables. It also blames the long ball for England not qualifying for competitions. That is countered very well in other responses (above) where we didn't qualify and didn't play long ball.

I am stating that entertaining is what matters and that goal mouth action is what brings entertainment regardless of how it gets there.
Watching one side have over 80% posession in a game is NOT entertainment. It's like watching a featherweight bout where one fighter cannot land a punch and the other one cannot put any power in a punch despite being highly accurate. They'd always win on points but it would be a borefest.

Your opinion is noted.

UTB

 

[DronnieBlade]

Blades under Weir and Adkins.

The piece is mis-informed as it berates one style based on making assumptions on incomplete data and then proceeds to make other assumptions on a set of incomplete data / variables. It also blames the long ball for England not qualifying for competitions. That is countered very well in other responses (above) where we didn't qualify and didn't play long ball.

I am stating that entertaining is what matters and that goal mouth action is what brings entertainment regardless of how it gets there.
Watching one side have over 80% posession in a game is NOT entertainment. It's like watching a featherweight bout where one fighter cannot land a punch and the other one cannot put any power in a punch despite being highly accurate. They'd always win on points but it would be a borefest.

Conclusive proof if ever it was needed that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I don't agree but respect your opinion.

UTB