Wisdom from Tufty

[Tyler Durden]

You Neanderthal S2 hoofers would love that to be the case but sadly it doesn't fit the plain words "get on the ball...pass it". Your hero Diplodocus thinks midfield is a 70 yard desert for the ball to fly over.

Midfielders are there to pick up the 50/50 scraps from a constant stream of agricultural launches in the general direction of the other end of the pitch.

Pass, in DD's philosophy, is something to be found Up the Khyber, which is precisely where his and your outdated, thoroughly discredited, anti-football belongs.

Infinitely more preferable to your little tippy-tappy triangular garbage performed by effete gutless wonders conceived by weak sperm.

Suck it up Hyacinth.....

 

[Fulwood Blade]

I,ll buy that but it still needs organisation.

yes, pinchy is right and you are right also.

When you get decent players with superb organisation - you end up with Portugal winning the Euros.

We saw it in the Euros with Greece a while back also.

For those who have followed CW at a distance during his apprenticeship as a manager, he seems to know what he is doing (at this level).

We just need to let him get on with it.

UTB

 

[Living In a Fantasy World]

Sounds abit old fashion to me, every player can play football, they can all pass/ attack and defend.
The game has evolved, that's why we talk about wingbacks/ cam/ cdm ect.
End of the day everyone has to chip in with goals and tackles if we want to get out of any league.
Why on earth he feels like putting out such a pointless comment, loses me.

 

[BushBlade]

You Neanderthal S2 hoofers would love that to be the case but sadly it doesn't fit the plain words "get on the ball...pass it". Your hero Diplodocus thinks midfield is a 70 yard desert for the ball to fly over.

Midfielders are there to pick up the 50/50 scraps from a constant stream of agricultural launches in the general direction of the other end of the pitch.

Pass, in DD's philosophy, is something to be found Up the Khyber, which is precisely where his and your outdated, thoroughly discredited, anti-football belongs.

Don't make assumptions about me Pinchy. You don't know me.
There's a big difference in accepting a less attractive style as a means to an end and believing that is the way football should be played.

 

[BushBlade]

Sounds abit old fashion to me, every player can play football, they can all pass/ attack and defend.
The game has evolved, that's why we talk about wingbacks/ cam/ cdm ect.
End of the day everyone has to chip in with goals and tackles if we want to get out of any league.
Why on earth he feels like putting out such a pointless comment, loses me.

Fishing.

 

[HeCanDoMagic]

N'Golo Kante and Calude Makelele are two examples of specialist defensive midfielders. Kevin De Bruyne and Mesut Ozil two examples of specialist attacking midfielders.

They are also examples of £50m+ players - who, I imagine, could play any role in a League 1 team better than anyone else in the division. Goalkeeper included!

 

[Large Mendonca]

You Neanderthal S2 hoofers would love that to be the case but sadly it doesn't fit the plain words "get on the ball...pass it". Your hero Diplodocus thinks midfield is a 70 yard desert for the ball to fly over.

Midfielders are there to pick up the 50/50 scraps from a constant stream of agricultural launches in the general direction of the other end of the pitch.

Pass, in DD's philosophy, is something to be found Up the Khyber, which is precisely where his and your outdated, thoroughly discredited, anti-football belongs.

Although i agree with your general philosophy, our "Diplodocus" didn't have a pot to piss in at the Blades, and i assume similarly at Wimbledon. It was a case of assembling misfits into a team greater than the sum of their parts, and i'm rather glad he did with us, otherwise we wouldn't have had those 4 years in the top flight with our basket case chairmen.

 

[RMBlade]

Largely agree with Wilder that midfield players need to do all four things but I'd add ' have positional awareness'; if all four midfield players push forward it can be naive and suicidal, particularly if a full back has bombed forward too. That's the 'holding' part of the role but I couldn't agree more that the role is not just for one player who spends his whole time 'holding back', often for something that never comes and invariably that player has no thought for forward play.

Midfield is all about a blend of skills and attributes and players playing together.

England played Dier alongside Rooney in central midfield which is OK when the full backs are bombing on but when they're not, like against Iceland, those middle two just don't get up and down and all the pressure falls on Sterling, Sturridge and Ali to support Kane. Sorry just the four players in the final third is not enough, no matter who they are. It's not good enough for Dier to do zero going forward and for Rooney to amble around spraying balls around in the middle third of the field where it does no damage.

Last season we sometimes had all four midfielders not interested in getting in the final third. Hammond alongside Coutts, Hammond alongside Basham, with Woolford out wide ;give us strength.

Pass and move, I fully agree, but don't everybody move too far all at once! Added to that, look to make central midfielders show for the ball in the final third; all down the wings becomes too predictable. 5 goals each per season minimum, I agree with somebody who posted that yesterday.

Look at all of the big teams that play 4-2-3-1 they all have 3 midfielders that all have different attributes that compliment each other.

Man City-Fernando (CDM) Fernandinho (box to box) Silva (CAM)
Chelsea - Matic (CDM) Fabregas (roaming) Oscar (CAM)
Barcelona - Busquets (CDM) Iniesta (Roaming Rakitic (CAM

I believe the box to box/roaming player is required to be a bit of everything but is mainly used like a QB setting up plays etc.

The other two roles are a lot more focused and defence or attack.

 

[Pinchy]

Although i agree with your general philosophy, our "Diplodocus" didn't have a pot to piss in at the Blades, and i assume similarly at Wimbledon. It was a case of assembling misfits into a team greater than the sum of their parts, and i'm rather glad he did with us, otherwise we wouldn't have had those 4 years in the top flight with our basket case chairmen.

I entirely agree. I have said, more than once, that he was the right man at the right time. My issue lies with those S2 backwoodsmen who fail to understand that that time has long gone and has no current relevance.

Certainly DD should have no role whatsoever in 21st century Sheffield United. Left to him, we'd be managed by Wally Downes. Wally fucking Downes.

 

[Chali 2na]

N'Golo Kante and Calude Makelele are two examples of specialist defensive midfielders. Kevin De Bruyne and Mesut Ozil two examples of specialist attacking midfielders.

I disagree with you on the specialist defensive midfielders:
In the PL it seems out and out defensive midfielders like Lee Cattermole are a dying breed. N'Golo Kante is creative enough and has great enough dribbling ability to offer something at both ends, I'd call him a box to box midfielder personally.

 

[Woodwardfan]

Look at all of the big teams that play 4-2-3-1 they all have 3 midfielders that all have different attributes that compliment each other.

Man City-Fernando (CDM) Fernandinho (box to box) Silva (CAM)
Chelsea - Matic (CDM) Fabregas (roaming) Oscar (CAM)
Barcelona - Busquets (CDM) Iniesta (Roaming Rakitic (CAM

I believe the box to box/roaming player is required to be a bit of everything but is mainly used like a QB setting up plays etc.

The other two roles are a lot more focused and defence or attack.

I like to watch Man City when Fernando isn't in the team and when he and Tourre play together in central midfield it's like watching paint dry.

I like the Chelsea three you mention but I ahve to turn off the TV if Mikel replaces one of them, especially if it's Matic left alongside him.

Don't watch Baralona much but when Man Utd play Scneiderlin and Carrick or Fellaini with him I love it because I like to see them struggle!!

I love to watch an 'out and out No.10' but think it needs 5 in midfield, including him. I regard Silva as a 'No.10', as is Fabregas much of the time and certainly Iniesta.

4-2-3-1 allows full backs to play as wingers which I love to see, but if they don't push on it's all so narrow and the opposition half is not populated enough.

 

[coaxingstar71]

Good Pele. I've struck a raw note amongst those who don't realise that football existed before Sky Sports, the Premiership and the nonsensical "Champions" League, haven't I?

I agree with you mostly, however even the great blades team of the 70's had Hockey as the more defensive mid and TC as the flair attacking mid. That's not to say TC didn't tackle or Hockey didn't score but I think we're all aware of what their respective roles in the team were.

 

[Slim Man]

I disagree with you on the specialist defensive midfielders:
In the PL it seems out and out defensive midfielders like Lee Cattermole are a dying breed. N'Golo Kante is creative enough and has great enough dribbling ability to offer something at both ends, I'd call him a box to box midfielder personally.

Agree to disagree, 4 assists and 1 goal wouldn't normally be enough for a midfielder to warrant a £30mil fee, and be in the running for player of the year, as well as in the team of the year. His defensive side is outstanding and that's what he's known for.
Ranieri said he was Leicester Makelele when he signed him and he was probably the best defensive midfielder I've seen in the flesh.

 

[RMBlade]

I like to watch Man City when Fernando isn't in the team and when he and Tourre play together in central midfield it's like watching paint dry.

I like the Chelsea three you mention but I ahve to turn off the TV if Mikel replaces one of them, especially if it's Matic left alongside him.

Don't watch Baralona much but when Man Utd play Scneiderlin and Carrick or Fellaini with him I love it because I like to see them struggle!!

I love to watch an 'out and out No.10' but think it needs 5 in midfield, including him. I regard Silva as a 'No.10', as is Fabregas much of the time and certainly Iniesta.

4-2-3-1 allows full backs to play as wingers which I love to see, but if they don't push on it's all so narrow and the opposition half is not populated enough.

I prefer it when Yaya is pushed further forward althought he seems to be declining.

When Chelsea won the title 2 seasons ago there 3 behind the ST (Hazard, Oscar and Willian) were all interchangeable, I had never really seen this happen before. Arsenal did it last season, I think it is what allowed Ozil to get the amount of assists that he got because he can drift out wide and find more space to pick out his passes.

It looks like UTD could interchange the 3 mid game too next season with Duffy, Scougall, Che and Done all capable of playing any of the 3 positions.

 

[Slim Man]

They are also examples of £50m+ players - who, I imagine, could play any role in a League 1 team better than anyone else in the division. Goalkeeper included!

Oh I don't doubt that, that's why I said it only matters higher up the echelons.
Every midfielder in this league has to contribute going forward and defending, even if they're a lot hotter on one than the other. For example if we were to play Basham as the 'deep' midfielder, I'd still expect him to be burst into the box a few times in the game and give the oppo something different to worry about.

 

[Woodwardfan]

I prefer it when Yaya is pushed further forward althought he seems to be declining.

When Chelsea won the title 2 seasons ago there 3 behind the ST (Hazard, Oscar and Willian) were all interchangeable, I had never really seen this happen before. Arsenal did it last season, I think it is what allowed Ozil to get the amount of assists that he got because he can drift out wide and find more space to pick out his passes.

It looks like UTD could interchange the 3 mid game too next season with Duffy, Scougall, Che and Done all capable of playing any of the 3 positions.

And wouldn't that be something!!

 

[RMBlade]

Agree to disagree, 4 assists and 1 goal wouldn't normally be enough for a midfielder to warrant a £30mil fee, and be in the running for player of the year, as well as in the team of the year. His defensive side is outstanding and that's what he's known for.
Ranieri said he was Leicester Makelele when he signed him and he was probably the best defensive midfielder I've seen in the flesh.

I think he was better than Makalele last season. He was just as solid defensively but then could pick the ball up and have the engine to run at the opposition.

 

[Pinchy]

I agree with you mostly, however even the great blades team of the 70's had Hockey as the more defensive mid and TC as the flair attacking mid. That's not to say TC didn't tackle or Hockey didn't score but I think we're all aware of what their respective roles in the team were.

Oh I agree entirely. They didn't talk bollocks about ACM and DCM though. Your creator has to dig in when necessary and the destroyer has to be able to play a bit. Currie and Hockey were extremes that complimented each other perfectly. That's actually a rarity and not reflective of a typical central midfield combination, either then or now. They didn't actually play together for too long, either, as I recall.

These modern appellations are favoured by wet behind the ears kids who think the game was invented by Coca Cola, didn't exist before the Premier League and is played on video screens. It doesn't suit them to acknowledge that football is a very simple game. Pass and move. Attack and defend as a team.

Holding midfielders need to put down whatever they are fucking holding and join in the game. Sitting midfielders need to get on their feet and run around a bit. Utter self-indulgent, over-complicated, pseudo-technical claptrap.

Midfielder. It speaks for itself.

 

[BushBlade]

When I played as a full back, I never got forward, didn't really understand the concept of overlapping and was horrified by some of Heffernan's forays forwards, leaving big gaps at the back.

Full back. It speaks for itself.

 

[Chali 2na]

Agree to disagree, 4 assists and 1 goal wouldn't normally be enough for a midfielder to warrant a £30mil fee, and be in the running for player of the year, as well as in the team of the year. His defensive side is outstanding and that's what he's known for.
Ranieri said he was Leicester Makelele when he signed him and he was probably the best defensive midfielder I've seen in the flesh.

Goals and assists, while important, don't define a midfield player. He can carry the ball and pick a pass unlike Makelele in my opinion.

As you say though, agree to disagree, as what we're talking about it largely subjective.

 

[Slim Man]

Goals and assists, while important, don't define a midfield player. He can carry the ball and pick a pass unlike Makelele in my opinion.

As you say though, agree to disagree, as what we're talking about it largely subjective.

Yeah, not going to go on about this cos it is very subjective but if I was personally talking about Kante he'd be a defensive midfielder.
Would you class Busquets as anything other than a defensive midfielder, out of interest? Or Alonso?

 

[Slim Man]

I think he was better than Makalele last season. He was just as solid defensively but then could pick the ball up and have the engine to run at the opposition.

I would probably agree but having not seen him in the flesh I can't really compare him to Makelele, hopefully we play him in the cup next season and I can see just how good he is, not just through a lens. He's just turned down a 100k a week contract at Leicester though! He's off to Chelsea I think.

 

[Pinchy]

When I played as a full back, I never got forward, didn't really understand the concept of overlapping and was horrified by some of Heffernan's forays forwards, leaving big gaps at the back.

Full back. It speaks for itself.

Crap footballers have been with us since the game began. You were but one of millions...

 

[sheffielder]

Of course Pinchy is correct in some parts, but as usual he leaves important aspects of his arguments out.

In regards to this one, yes a midfielder should be able to do all things, however they will be stronger at one thing than another, and it's for a manager to balance someone who is better going forward to someone who may be better at the defensive side of the game. I am sure the success of Gerrard and Lampard could have been better if they had played a more defensive guy to allow them to do what they do best.

I also imagine that Pinchy can fully explain why Zico and Socretes didn't play in the same team because they were considered too alike.

 

[SwissBlade]

“It does my head in when people talk about sitting midfield players, attacking midfield players and all of that. Most of it doesn’t mean anything at all.

“Do you know what? Just be a midfield player. Tackle, get on the ball, pass it and get forward. Simple.

“Seriously, I hear a lot of nonsense spoken about what people have got to do in there. Really, all a midfielder should be focusing on is doing what a midfielder is supposed to do. Including those four things for a start.”

Perhaps one or two of our contributors will read, digest and learn?....

A few issues with this as a very general statement:

1) if you get a good all rounder they tend to be very average at passing, tackling, attacking and shooting and are often not that quick. For example Scougal, reed, Basham and Cuvelier

2) in league one it's hard to find/ attract a very good midfielder and more often they have one strength and a few weaknesses. Recent examples Doyle, Monty, Coutts.

3) When you do find the exceptions, then they are expensive or they come with issues - James Wallace, Jose Baxter (to an extent) or Coady

If wilder can find a player or two from the third category, with a physical presence, pace, height and a footballing brain then you could probably play two in the centre of midfield.

I think it's a quite aspirational rather than the essential blend that we need.

I'm guessing that at present wilder will be looking at a central 3 of

Scougs or Reed
Basham or whiteman (?)
Fleck

 

[Pinchy]

Would you class Busquets as anything other than a defensive midfielder, out of interest? Or Alonso?

....and so it goes on...

 

[St Annington]

There is nothing 'modern' about the use of appellations to describe an approximation of the position of players on a pitch.

 

[Slim Man]

....and so it goes on...

Watch Barcelona. Watch Bayern Munich. Fine margins of victory at that level, you need players who do certain jobs, that's how games are won and loss.

Champions league football is like a game of chess. Really not difficult to understand.

 

[coaxingstar71]

Oh I agree entirely. They didn't talk bollocks about ACM and DCM though. Your creator has to dig in when necessary and the destroyer has to be able to play a bit. Currie and Hockey were extremes that complimented each other perfectly. That's actually a rarity and not reflective of a typical central midfield combination, either then or now. They didn't actually play together for too long, either, as I recall.

These modern appellations are favoured by wet behind the ears kids who think the game was invented by Coca Cola, didn't exist before the Premier League and is played on video screens. It doesn't suit them to acknowledge that football is a very simple game. Pass and move. Attack and defend as a team.

Holding midfielders need to put down whatever they are fucking holding and join in the game. Sitting midfielders need to get on their feet and run around a bit. Utter self-indulgent, over-complicated, pseudo-technical claptrap.

Midfielder. It speaks for itself.

Very true - you do make me laugh Pinchy ! The one that annoys me is when a player misses or a pass goes awry and they say "it was his wrong foot" ffs! You get paid thousands of pounds a week, perhaps instead of playing golf or wasting your wages in the bookies, spend some time training to kick with both feet. Watched Woody on the brilliant footage that WalthamstowBlade has posted smashing goals from outside the box with either foot.

 

[Pinchy]

I'm guessing that at present wilder will be looking at a central 3 of

Scougs or Reed
Basham or whiteman (?)
Fleck

Further recruitment needed then Swiss, because that will be nowhere near good enough. We've seen nothing from either Reed or Whiteman to indicate that they are yet ready to feature in a team with realistic aspirations of promotion.