Congratulations Nigel Clough

[alcoblade]

Extreme scrutiny, no. Keep it sensible, at least. We've never operated in terms of £100m and are never likely to. We're talking about investing a generous but not ridiculous League One budget to get promoted where the budget can then be increased for the following season.

Every season, a budget is set. Everything else is a bonus that is supposedly injected straight back into first team investment; cup runs, academy cash-ins, player sales. The board accepts that unless promotion is achieved (we're told every year that that is the number one aim), then that budget is written off and they have to reach into their own pockets again. It's not the job of a manager to leave a nest-egg for his successor. If the board want to abandon their plan less than halfway into the period they said a manager would get, then they have to reconcile with that decision.

My point was, and remains still, it matters far more what a manager can achieve with a team than what the next manager can sell them on for. In my opinion.

Boards do not write off their investments year on year. That's a policy of the mad house.

All successful transfer policies and clubs consider the resale value of players they sign.

Clough did an utterly appalling job with this, but to some extent he was spending what he was given. Once again, those running affairs allowed the manager to squander shit loads of resource on utter dross. "

They are all culpable, and thankfully all been sacked ("Sacked for non footballing reasons....you have to wonder") leaving McCabe to try to get it right for the umpteenth time, and our club right in the shit.

UTB

 

[Sirius]

As much as as it guts me to say it he's got to go too many flawes in his management or we will end up with a Harry Haslam situation next year.

The only way he could have put things right ,was to sack the absolute dross he and his brother brought to the club. and then appoint a scout who was up to the job and not a relative

 

[TonyAgana]

Boards do not write off their investments year on year. That's a policy of the mad house.

All successful transfer policies and clubs consider the resale value of players they sign.

Clough did an utterly appalling job with this, but to some extent he was spending what he was given. Once again, those running affairs allowed the manager to squander shit loads of resource on utter dross. "

They are all culpable, and thankfully all been sacked ("Sacked for non footballing reasons....you have to wonder") leaving McCabe to try to get it right for the umpteenth time, and our club right in the shit.

UTB

Have you not listened to the interviews given by our chairmen?

 

[alcoblade]

Have you not listened to the interviews given by our chairmen?

I thought so, but enlighten me? Are you seriously suggesting the board wouldn't care that every player signed is worth less than they paid?

My criticism is that Clough signed probably more than 20 players who, to a man (maybe ache Adams apart), will go on to play at a lower level than us.

Is that is;

Acceptable? or
Wrong?

UTB

 

[TonyAgana]

I thought so, but enlighten me? Are you seriously suggesting the board wouldn't care that every player signed is worth less than they paid?

My criticism is that Clough signed probably more than 20 players who, to a man (maybe ache Adams apart), will go on to play at a lower level than us.

Is that is;

Acceptable? or
Wrong?

UTB

Not that they wouldn't care, necessarily, but that's the reality they find themselves in; having to prop up the budget after 5 back-to-back promotion pushes. That's not normal club behaviour but then we aren't a normal club.

Timing has a hell of a lot to do with transfer fees, too. In his first season, Clough bought Scougall and Harris. We could have turned a profit on both of those had we sold them at a certain point. Equally, had we made Jamie Murphy available after his first season at Bramall Lane, he'd have ended up somewhere like Fleetwood.

And something that some Blades seem to forget is that for every James Wallace, there was a Harrison McGahey, for every Paul Coutts, a Ché Adams. Players bought with a degree of faith that they would develop and potentially even... wait for it... increase in value. Clough tried to find young, cheap talent (in the Scottish leagues) and blend it with experienced League 1 players (club captains, no less). It didn't work out. That's what the board accepts; that margins are tight and plans don't usually work out. But to blame Clough for Adkins' failure, when the players' contracts were the same lengths as Clough's, is potty.

 

[alcoblade]

Not that they wouldn't care, necessarily, but that's the reality they find themselves in; having to prop up the budget after 5 back-to-back promotion pushes. That's not normal club behaviour but then we aren't a normal club.

Timing has a hell of a lot to do with transfer fees, too. In his first season, Clough bought Scougall and Harris. We could have turned a profit on both of those had we sold them at a certain point. Equally, had we made Jamie Murphy available after his first season at Bramall Lane, he'd have ended up somewhere like Fleetwood.

And something that some Blades seem to forget is that for every James Wallace, there was a Harrison McGahey, for every Paul Coutts, a Ché Adams. Players bought with a degree of faith that they would develop and potentially even... wait for it... increase in value. Clough tried to find young, cheap talent (in the Scottish leagues) and blend it with experienced League 1 players (club captains, no less). It didn't work out. That's what the board accepts; that margins are tight and plans don't usually work out. But to blame Clough for Adkins' failure, when the players' contracts were the same lengths as Clough's, is potty.

You're going off on a tangent to my point that you picked up on, fella.

Of "20" players signed, only Che Adams looks like he might have the ability to progress. That's utterly woeful.

The point is, simply, for every "James Wallace" there just isn't a " Harrison McGahey".

I think it's now widely accepted that his transfers were an unmitigated disaster.

It's a different debate to the job Adkins has done (though it obviously impacts on it, enormously) , and stands alone to be shot at.

UTB

 

[DOC PACE WAS MY DAD]

Yes, congratulations Nige. You've come into a decent set-up with a settled confident team inheriting something that didn't need changing, and delivered the results that over the course of the season would have seen that team finish in the lower parts of the playoffs. Luckily, the points tally you inherited meant that this was still enough.

If you followed Burton post Chuff arrival he did manage to alienate some of their well performing players (under Hasslebank) and it went wobbly at the Club for a while
Such goings on more known locally in Burton than national press. When we went on SUFC cup runs national press reported Chuff was wonderful manager and around country away from South Yorkshire casual observers were amazed we sacked Clough but had never seen shite football he engineered in the League.....

 

[TonyAgana]

You're going off on a tangent to my point that you picked up on, fella.

Of "20" players signed, only Che Adams looks like he might have the ability to progress. That's utterly woeful.

The point is, simply, for every "James Wallace" there just isn't a " Harrison McGahey".

I think it's now widely accepted that his transfers were an unmitigated disaster.

It's a different debate to the job Adkins has done (though it obviously impacts on it, enormously) , and stands alone to be shot at.

UTB

You referred to him assembling "the most expensive pile of shite since Bryan Robson". That squad quite narrowly missed out on promotion, and at that point, we could probably have recouped most of the money Clough spent. Instead of doing that, or continuing with the 2 year plan, the plug was pulled after one year and Clough's squad was allowed (almost encouraged) to deteriorate under the new regime, alongside expensive and pointless loanees. I'd agree with your point had Clough finished 11th this season.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

UTB & FTP

Clough had a plan not to everyone's liking accepted, but a plan that as based around 4-5-1.

I accept totally that Adkins playing around with these lot and trying o find a formula has not worked.

That doesn't mean the Clough WOULD have failed - in my opinion it would have got us in the playoffs. I wouldn't have been happy with the style but getting out was the goal - and we are now much much further away from getting out and looking at a possible disaster NEXT season because of the change from Clough to Adkins.

As for alienating the 2 fit ones - if you are referring to Collins - he was shit, Clough knew it and eventually Adkins twigged it.

As for the issue with Butler (if that is the other) - I am not aware that ANYONE knows the real reason - it has never been made public - unless you know different?

UTB[/QUOTE]



For what it’s worth I agree Clough might well have got us in the playoffs. But it would have been turgid scraping in around 5th or 6th. Basically he would have probably ground out a few more results. After all, they were his players signed to play his way. He had the advantage of having the previous season with them and deciding who to keep, who to release etc. Adkins will be in that position for next season having had the chance to rid the squad of most of Clough/ Weir’s men and to build a team to play the way he wants them to. Personally, I’m more optimistic about the squad Adkins might put together than the one Clough did. I didn’t think Clough should have been sacked and I don’t think Adkins should as the new man will then face similar problems to those Adkins has faced this season (though not as bad as not so many contracted pros on the books).

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Hasslebank 41 points in 20 games. Just over 2 points per game. At this rate if he had continued they would have finished on 94 and romped the league as Champions.

Clough 44 points in 26 games 1.69points per game. At this rate over the whole season they would have 77.8 and finished 6th.

Do tell me how this is Clough doing a great job?

I’d say a top 6 performance with that Burton squad (considering El Khayati sold in Jan) is a decent effort from Clough. Not as good as JFH’s excellent start but fairly impressive. Depending on the odds I’d be tempted to bet on him keeping them up next season as well. He has a habit of grinding out some ugly draws and 1-0 wins (like he did at the lane this season). Might be enough to get them over the line.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Can't we all agree that Clough and Adkins are both terrible?

I can.

Yet Clough has just got Burton to the Championship whilst Adkins got Scunny there and back to back promotions with Southampton having taken them from the bottom half of league 1. Perhaps there’s other factors meaning both failed at this club?

 

[alcoblade]

You referred to him assembling "the most expensive pile of shite since Bryan Robson". That squad quite narrowly missed out on promotion, and at that point, we could probably have recouped most of the money Clough spent. Instead of doing that, or continuing with the 2 year plan, the plug was pulled after one year and Clough's squad was allowed (almost encouraged) to deteriorate under the new regime, alongside expensive and pointless loanees. I'd agree with your point had Clough finished 11th this season.

So, I'll ask again. Do you think it's acceptable that quite possibly ALL Clough's signings will go downwards from our already low position?


Yes or no?

There are umpteen other threads to discuss what's gone on since.

UTB

 

[TonyAgana]

So, I'll ask again. Do you think it's acceptable that quite possibly ALL Clough's signings will go downwards from our already low position?


Yes or no?

There are umpteen other threads to discuss what's gone on since.

UTB

Steady on, bro. I'm not dodging questions. Sorry if I've not given you an explicit answer, but I've repeated the point that there's reasons for it above and beyond your "pile of shite" point. I'm looking who is actually at fault, though. And the reasons for their downward trajectory, as I think it's unfair to call the 2014/15 squad a "pile of shite" and to blame Clough for this season's shambles. In my opinion, that is squarely at the door of the board and their inability to stick with a plan even though Nigel Clough met, with hindsight, plenty more KPIs than Nigel Adkins. Maybe NA had different ones, such as to run the clock down on 25 player contracts, but we were told (yet again) that competing for promotion was the target.

 

[Grecian2000]

How many of NW's signings left us behind and onto better things. Michael Brown? Andy Gray? and the other EIGHTY plus below?

Jaffa, Andy Woodward, Suffo, Curle, Santos, David Kelly, Guuus, Talia, Nuddy, Asaba, Shane Nicholson, Pesky, Grant Smith, De Vogt, Terry Phelan, Page, Javary, Yates, McCall, Karl Colley, Iffy, Ten Shuvels, Chief, Paddy, Kabba, Windass, Edghill, Cas, Morrison, Sestanavich, Gary Kelly, Rodgers, Lester, Armstrong, Rankine, Parkinson, Whitlow, Morgs, Helios, Jags (Stephen), Wright, Shaw, Ilic, Francis, Harley, Hayles, Liddell, Bromby, Quinn (A), Barnes, Thirlwell, Cadamateri, Geary, Beckett, Cullip, Tommy Johnson, Danny Haystead, Nalis, Ifill, Webber, Short, Mulligan, Nix, Shipps, Gillespie, Unswort, Deano (3rd time), Flitcroft, BadBuy, Dyer, Lucketti, Sommeil, Horsfield, Calamity Claude, Nade, Legs of Wood, Hulse, Li Tie, Bennett, Kazim Richards, Killa, Stead, Seck, Shelton, Fathi.

Surely the board let him sign MOST of these players for what they could do for us, not for re-sale value (bloody good job if they did). Don't think the plethora of people who come on here wanting him back every three months are concerned what we got or where they went, only how they did.

 

[TonyAgana]

How many of NW's signings left us behind and onto better things. Michael Brown? Andy Gray? and the other EIGHTY plus below?

Jaffa, Andy Woodward, Suffo, Curle, Santos, David Kelly, Guuus, Talia, Nuddy, Asaba, Shane Nicholson, Pesky, Grant Smith, De Vogt, Terry Phelan, Page, Javary, Yates, McCall, Karl Colley, Iffy, Ten Shuvels, Chief, Paddy, Kabba, Windass, Edghill, Cas, Morrison, Sestanavich, Gary Kelly, Rodgers, Lester, Armstrong, Rankine, Parkinson, Whitlow, Morgs, Helios, Jags (Stephen), Wright, Shaw, Ilic, Francis, Harley, Hayles, Liddell, Bromby, Quinn (A), Barnes, Thirlwell, Cadamateri, Geary, Beckett, Cullip, Tommy Johnson, Danny Haystead, Nalis, Ifill, Webber, Short, Mulligan, Nix, Shipps, Gillespie, Unswort, Deano (3rd time), Flitcroft, BadBuy, Dyer, Lucketti, Sommeil, Horsfield, Calamity Claude, Nade, Legs of Wood, Hulse, Li Tie, Bennett, Kazim Richards, Killa, Stead, Seck, Shelton, Fathi.

Surely the board let him sign MOST of these players for what they could do for us, not for re-sale value (bloody good job if they did). Don't think the plethora of people who come on here wanting him back every three months are concerned what we got or where they went, only how they did.

Exactly. Our Chairmen have repeatedly said that more investment will come in the Championship. If by that time we've a squad full of players that could go on to bigger and better things than League One, there wouldn't be much need to invest more, would there? It simply isn't our strategy to trade up.

 

[PeteBlade]

You referred to him assembling "the most expensive pile of shite since Bryan Robson". That squad quite narrowly missed out on promotion, and at that point, we could probably have recouped most of the money Clough spent. Instead of doing that, or continuing with the 2 year plan, the plug was pulled after one year and Clough's squad was allowed (almost encouraged) to deteriorate under the new regime, alongside expensive and pointless loanees. I'd agree with your point had Clough finished 11th this season.

Which squad "quite narrowly missed out on promotion"?

Ours? We were out of the play semi final after 1 leg and 10 minutes.

 

[alcoblade]

How many of NW's signings left us behind and onto better things. Michael Brown? Andy Gray? and the other EIGHTY plus below?

Jaffa, Andy Woodward, Suffo, Curle, Santos, David Kelly, Guuus, Talia, Nuddy, Asaba, Shane Nicholson, Pesky, Grant Smith, De Vogt, Terry Phelan, Page, Javary, Yates, McCall, Karl Colley, Iffy, Ten Shuvels, Chief, Paddy, Kabba, Windass, Edghill, Cas, Morrison, Sestanavich, Gary Kelly, Rodgers, Lester, Armstrong, Rankine, Parkinson, Whitlow, Morgs, Helios, Jags (Stephen), Wright, Shaw, Ilic, Francis, Harley, Hayles, Liddell, Bromby, Quinn (A), Barnes, Thirlwell, Cadamateri, Geary, Beckett, Cullip, Tommy Johnson, Danny Haystead, Nalis, Ifill, Webber, Short, Mulligan, Nix, Shipps, Gillespie, Unswort, Deano (3rd time), Flitcroft, BadBuy, Dyer, Lucketti, Sommeil, Horsfield, Calamity Claude, Nade, Legs of Wood, Hulse, Li Tie, Bennett, Kazim Richards, Killa, Stead, Seck, Shelton, Fathi.

Surely the board let him sign MOST of these players for what they could do for us, not for re-sale value (bloody good job if they did). Don't think the plethora of people who come on here wanting him back every three months are concerned what we got or where they went, only how they did.

That's because he turned crowds of 10,000 into 25,000. That was the overall measure of before and after there.

But here were lots of Warnock signings that went onto better things, though many stayed with us because as a club, we went into better things. So not the 100 ( one hundred) percent failure rate we're talking here.

But as you want to enter the debate, (about Clough before its derailed further) will you answer answer;

Is it acceptable that all Clough's signings go downwards when they leave us?

You seem to be attempting to say yes with your outburst above, so just clarify, yes or no?

UTB

 

[Grecian2000]

Is it acceptable that all Clough's signings go downwards when they leave us?

You seem to be attempting to say yes with your outburst above, so just clarify, yes or no?

UTB

Ha, call that an outburst?

Time will tell but I suspect with the sales of Adams and Wallace (K) we will get more than our money back and they will play at a higher level.
I don't see why it isn't acceptable that they don't go downward anyway, I don't give a shiny shite how people have done before they arrive or after they've gone, my only concern is how they perform for us. I judge Ian Rush, Jimmy Johnstone and Phil Thompson as useless twats but I concede Liverpool and Celtic fans might have a different viewpoint. I have a Stoke supporting mate who thinks Michael Tonge is a prize wanker, I like to think of him as the man that saved us from Bobby Ford.

As for debate, this isn't one. It's a thread (title a bit of a giveaway) congratulating Clough on getting promoted on Sunday that has been hijacked by the usual suspects giving us the bitter vitriol that has endured all season.
For what it's worth I would have much preferred Burton to stay down, other than the mutual wanking that would have broken out on here, because I like us to have the weakest opposition possible and the Pigs to have the strongest, but it didn't happen so good luck and back to our problems.

 

[TonyAgana]

Which squad "quite narrowly missed out on promotion"?

Ours? We were out of the play semi final after 1 leg and 10 minutes.

Ok mate, 7-6 on aggregate isn't VERY narrowly missing out on a play-off final...

 

[alcoblade]

I don't see why it isn't acceptable that they don't go downward anyway, I don't give a shiny shite how people have done before they arrive or after they've gone,

And sadly, those in charge of the purse strings have repeatedly thought this way , meaning we've continually signed shite. And continued to need millions in extra funding just to stand still at third division level. This said, Clough's record on signings is at the bottom of a frighteningly bad list.

McCabe at least knows this, and keeps sacking all the incompetent fools who think this way. The problem is, he can't stop employing more incompetent fools who think this way.

UTB

 

[PeteBlade]

Ok mate, 7-6 on aggregate isn't VERY narrowly missing out on a play-off final...

Well you first said we narrowly missed out promotion rather than play off final.

And anyone who watched the second leg knows we weren't in it.

 

[TonyAgana]

Well you first said we narrowly missed out promotion rather than play off final.

No, I said we very narrowly missed out on the PO final and therefore quite narrowly missed out on promotion.

And anyone who watched the second leg knows we weren't in it.

I'm not going to change your mind, clearly, but you're telling me we weren't in a game that finished 5-5 after 97 minutes? You won't change my mind, either.

 

[PeteBlade]

No, I said we very narrowly missed out on the PO final and therefore quite narrowly missed out on promotion.

I'm not going to change your mind, clearly, but you're telling me we weren't in a game that finished 5-5 after 97 minutes? You won't change my mind, either.

No because we were only within one goal of them for less than 5 minutes of the match.

Ask pretty much anyone who watched it.

 

[HillmortonBlade]

a comment like that is easily taken out of context

On a football forum?? Behave.

 

[alcoblade]

No because we were only within one goal of them for less than 5 minutes of the match.

Ask pretty much anyone who watched it.......

.......who were, in the main, all calling for Clough's head during that match ( I was there and wasn't one of them).

UTB

 

[bridgfordblade]

On a football forum?? Behave.

Even on this thread you've got alco blade saying "sacked for non football reasons.... you have to wonder"

Elsewhere, you've got someone else saying possibly the McEveley signing on fee might have been split between Mal B and Clough.

Someone writing he hopes the non football reasons come to light eventually before adding, On very dangerous ground is mischievous at best.

There's no point me continuing on this thread, you've got the Clough haters already trying to rubbish my views and the classy lydon posting Alan Partridge pictures.

There's no debating to be done with folks like that.

Facts are facts, he got you to finish 5th, he took you to two cup semi's, he was sacked. You lot don't rate him, I do (then again who do you lot rate?).

The next guy came in and finished 11th and eventually froze out a lot of the players who finished 5th. Bringing in half a side of his own players.

It might actually do the club some good to have missed out on the play offs, at least next year when you get back to 5th or 6th with something to play for on the run in, you might get excited instead of the doom and gloom depression of it's not good enough for Sheffield United.

 

[PeteBlade]

Even on this thread you've got alco blade saying "sacked for non football reasons.... you have to wonder"

Elsewhere, you've got someone else saying possibly the McEveley signing on fee might have been split between Mal B and Clough.

Someone writing he hopes the non football reasons come to light eventually before adding, On very dangerous ground is mischievous at best.

There's no point me continuing on this thread, you've got the Clough haters already trying to rubbish my views and the classy lydon posting Alan Partridge pictures.

There's no debating to be done with folks like that.

Facts are facts, he got you to finish 5th, he took you to two cup semi's, he was sacked. You lot don't rate him, I do (then again who do you lot rate?).

The next guy came in and finished 11th and eventually froze out a lot of the players who finished 5th. Bringing in half a side of his own players.

It might actually do the club some good to have missed out on the play offs, at least next year when you get back to 5th or 6th with something to play for on the run in, you might get excited instead of the doom and gloom depression of it's not good enough for Sheffield United.

Let's be truthful, you don't "rate him" because of his skills as a football manager but because of a personal connection to him.

It's very different.

 

[HillmortonBlade]

"sacked for non football reasons.... you have to wonder"

Probably best you do leave the debate then, I think you're being a bit overly sensitive with this. The reasons a person may lose their job and it not being performance related are many and varied. Since none of us actually know, it's both reasonable and natural to speculate.

You lot don't rate him

Some do, some don't. For what it's worth, in my opinion, anyone who watched the dire second half of negative and boring rubbish last season would not rate him. Nearly got to the Play Off final?? I don't know how anyone who watched the second leg against Swindon can hand on heart believe that. From the look on the shell shocked Clough face in the dug out, he certainly didn't. But that is MY opinion and it's different to other posters. I may be wrong. I've been wrong about my initial enthusiasm for Adkins, I hope my current opinion is changed next season if he is here and we turn the corner.

That's what forums are for. Discussion about football, a bit of (or lot) of tittle tattle, taking the piss out of each other, sometimes falling out for a bit.

I have no idea why you are so worked up by alcoblade , it's very odd. He has posed a question, perhaps a mildly leading question, what on earth is the problem with that??

 

[bridgfordblade]

Let's be truthful, you don't "rate him" because of his skills as a football manager but because of a personal connection to him.

It's very different.

YOU judge it that way Pete. I can't help that.

I rate him cos in his 17 and half seasons as a manager he's improved the finishing position of the club he's been at 15 times.
I rate him cos he's won 3 promotions.
I rate him cos at every club he's been at he's broken a couple of their previous records. (points' goals scored, consecutive wins, number of clean sheets - obviously not all together)
I rate him cos he usually knows what needs improving and he improves it.
I rate him cos he's honest with his players, even if it means freezing them out.
I rate him cos he's loyal to those players who work hard for him.
I rate him cos he's got the balls to play young players and let them get experience, even though he knows its his nuts on the line results wise.

I've watched him for 17 and half years (as a manager) and thirteen before that as a player, you watched him for 18 months - 18 fairly successful months by the way. At one point he had you the best cup side in the country.

You've decided why I rate him isn't right. You and others occasionally make that very personal.

I don't know why you and others hate him so much, I'm not a Blade as you keep reminding me but I've seen managers take your club much further backwards than anything you're throwing at Clough.

Adkins for example. Has taken you so far backwards it should be smacking you in the face.

 

[HillmortonBlade]

At one point he had you the best cup side in the country.

Really? What Cups did he win?

It's getting a bit painful you know, reading your eulogies. I should not read them, but there's a sort of morbid curiosity.