Budget, technical board and youth

[Sean Thornton]

Sean, thanks for placing on record the fact that I edited a figure, sure everybody needed to know that. Good to know you are paying real time attention though Still think it could be £6m actually or anything between £5m and £6m. The point remains that it will naturally come down after the big investments made available to Clough and then Adkins on top of Clough's bloated squad. Therefore we fans don't need to read too much into it all.

Paying Adkins and his team off will fall in the 2016/17 accounts but hopefully will be covered as an exceptional item by the owners and won't have too much impact on the wage bill. I think they'll settle with a few of the 7 listed players too and will hopefully treat that outside the manager's wage budget.

P.S. I edited the word 'then' above.

With one of your detailed posts based solely on your own assumptions I wondered why you would drop the figure by a million after originally posting six million. Clearly it's irritated you but you've concentrated on that rather than the point which was that to reckon it's five million in the season - or six to cover your back - just gone, how do you think any reduction from 2014/15 has come about?
Or maybe you believe admin salaries totalled half of the football costs.

The pay offs to Adkins etc will be included in wages as normal because it's contractual. Why you would think otherwise is anyone's guess but hiding them under extraordinary expenses changes nothing on the bottom line, nor I'd imagine for SCMP. I'd have thought someone who thinks themselves capable of running the club would be aware of that.

More editing may make you look less daft in future btw.

 

[Woodwardfan]

With one of your detailed posts based solely on your own assumptions I wondered why you would drop the figure by a million after originally posting six million. Clearly it's irritated you but you've concentrated on that rather than the point which was that to reckon it's five million in the season - or six to cover your back - just gone, how do you think any reduction from 2014/15 has come about?
Or maybe you believe admin salaries totalled half of the football costs.

The pay offs to Adkins etc will be included in wages as normal because it's contractual. Why you would think otherwise is anyone's guess but hiding them under extraordinary expenses changes nothing on the bottom line, nor I'd imagine for SCMP. I'd have thought someone who thinks themselves capable of running the club would be aware of that.

More editing may make you look less daft in future btw.

The suggestion that the owners would treat the contract settlements as exceptional was nothing to do with how it will figure in the accounts, more a suggestion that the expense will not be allowed to cause a drain on Wilder's wage bill. That's how it was intended and that's how it's written.

Sean, you are what you are, you wonder why I edited a figure and that's only because you were sat there during the minute or two it took me to check my post and then edit it and you thought it was so significant for some reason. You also think I tried to 'cover my back', I ask you, what is that all about? We are fans on a forum, not giving evidence which may be used against us should we be taken to court.

By the way, you do know I'm talking about the 2016/17 season wage bill and a guesstimate of the 2015/16 season wage bill do you, not the 2015 accounts ? Not a big woopsie is it, couldn't possibly be could it? Recent press information from "sources" has said Adkins' wage bill was £6m ( 2016 accounts).

 

[Sean Thornton]

The suggestion that the owners would treat the contract settlements as exceptional was nothing to do with how it will figure in the accounts, more a suggestion that the expense will not be allowed to cause a drain on Wilder's wage bill. That's how it was intended and that's how it's written.

Sean, you are what you are, you wonder why I edited a figure and that's only because you were sat there during the minute or two it took me to check my post and then edit it and you thought it was so significant for some reason. You also think I tried to 'cover my back', I ask you, what is that all about? We are fans on a forum, not giving evidence which may be used against us should we be taken to court.

By the way, you do know I'm talking about the 2016/17 season wage bill and a guesstimate of the 2015/16 season wage bill do you, not the 2015 accounts ? Not a big woopsie is it, couldn't possibly be could it? Recent press information from "sources" has said Adkins' wage bill was £6m ( 2016 accounts).

Clearly the pay offs will have an effect on the wage bill. How couldn't it? Still requires budgeting for and the owners are covering the overall losses including wages not just wages.

Your black and white thinking on these matters made me wonder why you'd dropped the wage figure, did you change your mind after rereading it? So it fits better? You really need to read what I put though, i was well aware the years to which you were referring and my comment was what made you think last seasons cost would have fallen from the year before or did you believe we were paying the admin staff an average salary of £48k a week each in 2014/2015.

I doubt James Shield has seen the 2016 accounts though, seeing as the year end is 30th June, some five weeks away. Then again, maybe his imagination is as vivid (and as fluid) as yours?

 

[Woodwardfan]

Clearly the pay offs will have an effect on the wage bill. How couldn't it? Still requires budgeting for and the owners are covering the overall losses including wages not just wages.

Your black and white thinking on these matters made me wonder why you'd dropped the wage figure, did you change your mind after rereading it? So it fits better? You really need to read what I put though, i was well aware the years to which you were referring and my comment was what made you think last seasons cost would have fallen from the year before or did you believe we were paying the admin staff an average salary of £48k a week each in 2014/2015.

I doubt James Shield has seen the 2016 accounts though, seeing as the year end is 30th June, some five weeks away. Then again, maybe his imagination is as vivid (and as fluid) as yours?

Sean, your mind works in one way, apparently through the company accounts only. It's perfectly reasonable for me to state that I do not think that the extra expense spent on paying off Adkins and his team will be allowed to, or used as a reason to restrict the wage budget that Wilder is allowed to spend. That's all I said.

I never said last season's wage bill had fallen from the year before, that's where you are mistaken.

"Black and white thinking", you are mistaken again, my post is all "guesstimates" as stated.

Don't lets spoil this excellent thread.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Sean, your mind works in one way, apparently through the company accounts only. It's perfectly reasonable for me to state that I do not think that the extra expense spent on paying off Adkins and his team will be allowed to, or used as a reason to restrict the wage budget that Wilder is allowed to spend. That's all I said.

I never said last season's wage bill had fallen from the year before, that's where you are mistaken.

"Black and white thinking", you are mistaken again, my post is all "guesstimates" as stated.

Don't lets spoil this excellent thread.

You said, eventually, you believed it to be around £5million. I never said you'd "said" it had fallen, I suggested it had, and asked what you thought, yes funnily enough based on the 2015 accounts rather than the pixies in my head, and then asked on that basis, how much did you think the admin staff were getting.

Let's make it clear, what was your guesstimate for the wage budget for 204/2015?

Concentrate more on the subject matter instead of trying to tell me how my mind works.

 

[Woodwardfan]

You said, eventually, you believed it to be around £5million. I never said you'd "said" it had fallen, I suggested it had, and asked what you thought, yes funnily enough based on the 2015 accounts rather than the pixies in my head, and then asked on that basis, how much did you think the admin staff were getting.

Let's make it clear, what was your guesstimate for the wage budget for 204/2015?

Concentrate more on the subject matter instead of trying to tell me how my mind works.

I've not referred to it on this thread, but you have, is that clear enough?

The £5m I referred to was for the 2015/16 season and is quoted below:

Budget:

If last season's wage bill was £5m with that bloated squad, my complete guess and gut instinct suggests to me the new budget will not be that much less, say £4.5m. We still have ambitious owners who are losing money the longer this club is languishing in this league. I don't think the new owner is retrenching, far from it, he wants something to show for the investment which has been largely wasted by two managers and he's in that awful situation that the next tranche of cash could easily have gone the same way had changes not been made. Even so Wilder is still a gamble like any managerial appointment.

Technical Board:

The manager will dominate it but any marginal potential signings identified by the other board members will have to be justified. Looking at the individuals on the Technical Board, does anybody think Wilder won't get his own way?

Youth Players:

Only Whiteman, Reed and Calvert-Lewin are anywhere near a first team place and each of them has a lot to do to get picked. They will get more playing time but that's obvious because Adkins gave them hardly any. I'd be surprised if any two of those lads starts the season in the first team but if they all finish the season there it will be a great result for the club and incentive to any other prospects to know they can follow on from them. Common sense tells me that if the Academy provides the odd exceptional player then he will be sold elsewhere until we are at the top end Championship but it is entirely possible for the Academy to produce a player or two every year for our first team with the different mind set of investing playing time in their development. They don't have to be world beaters immediately or indeed ever, just capable of playing a part in the first team at this and the next level. Anything else after that is way away. Our first team needs so many match winners and so many dependable players to support them. Young lads may develop from one to the other during their first 50 games or so. Take Calvert-Lewin, he can start as a sub, gain a first team place in a supporting role and go on to be the main striker, let's hope he does!!

 

[Lane Ender]

I'm sure that's right, but how much of our "larger budget" is already committed to existing players, that are still nowhere near their worth?

If we have 3 or 4 of the current youngsters heavily involved next season, the we have a relegation battle on our hands.

We must be very active in the transfer market, but I'm concerned about that.

UTB

Relegation talk.
Brilliant.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

I've heard the same stuff for a decade. And a decade later were still dining out on Walker and Maguire.

UTB

Maguire only broke in about 5 years ago.


Long has since established himself. Reed has become an established squad player.


Kennedy has been there but let down by injury. DdG might well be in the mix but for injury.


Over the last 10 years weave produced Naughton, Walker, Lowton, Mellis, Slew, Maguire, Long, Kennedy, Reed and now Whiteman, DCL, Kelly, Brooks etc. are on the fringes. I’m certain they won’t all make it and I’m not claiming any are going to go on to be like Walker, Naguhton, Lowton or even Maguire but they do provide us with cover for the first team in the third tier and a couple might develop beyond that.


Having these lads available for selection means we don’t have to carry such a big senior squad and can hunt for quality over quantity.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

But you also need to create. If you have someone like Reed loading the gun for Done, Sharp and Adams?

I agree and agreed with an earlier point about Reed playing some great through-balls from deep. I think he needs to work on his aggression and strength and become a deeper lying playmaker who can also tackle. Then Adams (or a new signing)could play in the hole (if we go with that system) with Sharp up top flanked by Done/Adams and a new winger. That would get more goals into the team.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

With one of your detailed posts based solely on your own assumptions I wondered why you would drop the figure by a million after originally posting six million. Clearly it's irritated you but you've concentrated on that rather than the point which was that to reckon it's five million in the season - or six to cover your back - just gone, how do you think any reduction from 2014/15 has come about?
Or maybe you believe admin salaries totalled half of the football costs.

The pay offs to Adkins etc will be included in wages as normal because it's contractual. Why you would think otherwise is anyone's guess but hiding them under extraordinary expenses changes nothing on the bottom line, nor I'd imagine for SCMP. I'd have thought someone who thinks themselves capable of running the club would be aware of that.

More editing may make you look less daft in future btw.

I think most people’s point on this subject isn’t that we paid less during 2015-16 than 2014-15 but that at the end of the season having released the players we have, we are now in a position that the 2016-17 wage bill looks very likely to be smaller than 2014-15 or 2015-16 having got so much deadwood out. More so if we can move people like Coutts, Wallace, Hammond etc. on. It seems that we should be able to recruit a fair few players and still be paying less in total than in the past 2 seasons. More so if some players are 18-20 and as such, I believe their wages wouldn’t count under SCMP.

 

[Woodwardfan]

I think most people’s point on this subject isn’t that we paid less during 2015-16 than 2014-15 but that at the end of the season having released the players we have, we are now in a position that the 2016-17 wage bill looks very likely to be smaller than 2014-15 or 2015-16 having got so much deadwood out. More so if we can move people like Coutts, Wallace, Hammond etc. on. It seems that we should be able to recruit a fair few players and still be paying less in total than in the past 2 seasons. More so if some players are 18-20 and as such, I believe their wages wouldn’t count under SCMP.

Most people's point including me

Edit:

 

[Barney]

I agree and agreed with an earlier point about Reed playing some great through-balls from deep. I think he needs to work on his aggression and strength and become a deeper lying playmaker who can also tackle. Then Adams (or a new signing)could play in the hole (if we go with that system) with Sharp up top flanked by Done/Adams and a new winger. That would get more goals into the team.

From what I've seen of Reed the start of this season and all last season, he's a very weak footballer. Both physically and technically. If a midfielder of his size and frame wants to be a mainstay in a side, he needs to make up for what he lacks in height and strength in agility and on the ball ability, which he doesn't do and never has done.

Not only is he limited technically, his on field confidence is also very low, which often results in him resorting to safe side and back options that cause and maintain a slow tempo. A very timid player, and definitely not one that should be anywhere near a mainstay option in central midfield of a promotion aspiring club.

 

[Woodwardfan]

From what I've seen of Reed the start of this season and all last season, he's a very weak footballer. Both physically and technically. If a midfielder of his size and frame wants to be a mainstay in a side, he needs to make up for what he lacks in height and strength in agility and on the ball ability, which he doesn't do and never has done.

Not only is he limited technically, his on field confidence is also very low, which often results in him resorting to safe side and back options that cause and maintain a slow tempo. A very timid player, and definitely not one that should be anywhere near a mainstay option in central midfield of a promotion aspiring club.

Agree timid and confused under Adkins. A year younger he was fine under Clough. Let's hope next year under Wilder is the making of him.

All these changes are a lot for a young player to cope with though, especially when progress is slowed for whatever reason.

Adkins rarely played him in his preferred positon and played Flynn there instead when we moved to 3-5-2 and prior to that we were in 4-4-2 mode with no place for him. As a younger lad he played more games under Clough than Adkins.

 

[alcoblade]

Maguire only broke in about 5 years ago.


Long has since established himself. Reed has become an established squad player.


Kennedy has been there but let down by injury. DdG might well be in the mix but for injury.


Over the last 10 years weave produced Naughton, Walker, Lowton, Mellis, Slew, Maguire, Long, Kennedy, Reed and now Whiteman, DCL, Kelly, Brooks etc. are on the fringes. I’m certain they won’t all make it and I’m not claiming any are going to go on to be like Walker, Naguhton, Lowton or even Maguire but they do provide us with cover for the first team in the third tier and a couple might develop beyond that.


Having these lads available for selection means we don’t have to carry such a big senior squad and can hunt for quality over quantity.

I'll be very happy to be wrong, but my confident prediction is that most of the current crop (including Long) won't make it / are bang average third division players at best.

The rules have changed and we won't get chance to keep players like Walker in future.

As our wage bill continues to be squeezed to reflect our shiteness, maintaining the hugely expensive academy will be seen as the millstone that it is.

UTB

 

[alcoblade]

Agree timid and confused under Adkins. A year younger he was fine under Clough. Let's hope next year under Wilder is the making of him.

All these changes are a lot for a young player to cope with though, especially when progress is slowed for whatever reason.

Adkins rarely played him in his preferred positon and played Flynn there instead when we moved to 3-5-2 and prior to that we were in 4-4-2 mode with no place for him. As a younger lad he played more games under Clough than Adkins.

Barring a couple of exceptions, Reed has looked like a little bit lost under both managers. He isn't "timid and confused", he's completely lacking the physical attributes required for the modern game.

To compensate, he needs to be exceptional in at least one area. He isn't.

UTB

 

[alcoblade]

Relegation talk.
Brilliant.

Only Based on a scenario that I hope, and expect, not to happen.

Wilder will see our youngsters for what they are, of that I'm certain. I'm less certain that he'll have the funds to address it.

UTB

 

[Sean Thornton]

I think most people’s point on this subject isn’t that we paid less during 2015-16 than 2014-15 but that at the end of the season having released the players we have, we are now in a position that the 2016-17 wage bill looks very likely to be smaller than 2014-15 or 2015-16 having got so much deadwood out. More so if we can move people like Coutts, Wallace, Hammond etc. on. It seems that we should be able to recruit a fair few players and still be paying less in total than in the past 2 seasons. More so if some players are 18-20 and as such, I believe their wages wouldn’t count under SCMP.

The particular point I was replying to was that whilst the poster only thought the budget would drop by half a million from his own estimate of what this seasons would be was that I doubted 2015/16s wage bill would have dropped that much from the previous year and therefore a further drop to £4.5 million is a big reduction. Him pretending not to see the point just causes tedium.

And that's why I mentioned the edit. He changed the figure to suit the point he was trying to make.

 

[Sean Thornton]

I'll be very happy to be wrong, but my confident prediction is that most of the current crop (including Long) won't make it / are bang average third division players at best.

The rules have changed and we won't get chance to keep players like Walker in future.

As our wage bill continues to be squeezed to reflect our shiteness, maintaining the hugely expensive academy will be seen as the millstone that it is.

UTB

Watching the under 21 final, Reed and Adams looked very ordinary playing against their peers.

 

[Highbury_Blade]

The pay offs to Adkins etc will be included in wages as normal because it's contractual. Why you would think otherwise is anyone's guess but hiding them under extraordinary expenses changes nothing on the bottom line, nor I'd imagine for SCMP. I'd have thought someone who thinks themselves capable of running the club would be aware of that.

More editing may make you look less daft in future btw.

SCMP only relates to player wages

 

[Kev Gee]

Make no mistake its going to be tough.

But lets also stop all this shuffling around with hands in pockets and already getting excuses in.

We should be smashing the shit out of this league. This is what I expect Wilder will be demanding and expecting.

 

[him behind you]

TE="sheffielder, post: 1016397, member: 1082"]What other expensive option would you have gone with if not Wilder?[/QUOTE]
Don't know what other options were available to go with but there again I didn't put us in a position to need one. Years of mismanagement by the same man got us there.

 

[bladesmanluke]

I am hoping Reed gets a free role this year. The lad can pick a pass and needs to be in a more forward area than we play him. he's wasted

We need goals from midfield. He's never scored a goal in his career

 

[Cyprus Blade]

A year younger he was fine under Clough.

To be honest his technical and physical limitations were apparent then as was his fragile confidence eg at Notts County away fixture under Clough. His passing and tackling were poor that day as was his marking (he's not the best marker on a good day). He was subbed and benched and from that point on he never really looked the player that did so well earlier in the season. I suppose you could argue that was an age/inexperience thing but, sorry to say, I think he has gone further backwards this season and it is ominous for him that he was so low in the pecking order given the well documented problems we had in midfield.

 

[sheffielder]

To be honest his technical and physical limitations were apparent then as was his fragile confidence eg at Notts County away fixture under Clough. His passing and tackling were poor that day as was his marking (he's not the best marker on a good day). He was subbed and benched and from that point on he never really looked the player that did so well earlier in the season. I suppose you could argue that was an age/inexperience thing but, sorry to say, I think he has gone further backwards this season and it is ominous for him that he was so low in the pecking order given the well documented problems we had in midfield.

he doesn't lack technical ability, he really doesn't.

 

[alcoblade]

he doesn't lack technical ability, he really doesn't.

Honest question fella, but do you know him personally?

UTB

 

[VLYDONIMIR]

Years of mismanagement by the same man got us there.

20/20 Vision.
Join the club.

 

[sheffielder]

Honest question fella, but do you know him personally?

UTB

Nope. We obviously see players differently and I see a player. It's ok to disagree

 

[alcoblade]

Nope. We obviously see players differently and I see a player. It's ok to disagree

Of course it is, it's why we bother coming on isn't it?

Your opinion of him is so out of kilter with anyone I know, which made me wonder if you were totally unbiased. However, i really respect those who "have the alls" to sensibly defend a minority opinion, even if it didn't come across that way in text

UTB

 

[sheffielder]

Of course it is, it's why we bother coming on isn't it?

Your opinion of him is so out of kilter with anyone I know, which made me wonder if you were totally unbiased. However, i really respect those who "have the alls" to sensibly defend a minority opinion, even if it didn't come across that way in text

UTB

I didn't think i was in the minority. I speak to lots of people who think highly of Reed. Some people just see what's in front of them and some see what could be. You're the former

 

[Cyprus Blade]

he doesn't lack technical ability, he really doesn't.

I don't want to put the lad down and I agree that when his confidence is up he can strike a lovely long pass (I remember one to Murphy that really sticks in my mind) - but his positional sense and the defensive side of his game needs a lot of work from what I have seen of him. But I think the biggest battle he faces is in his head. You know its funny how things can turn on a single second - I do wonder where Louis Reed would be development wise had that late shot v Spurs gone in under the bar and not over. I hope the lad makes it, but I would be very concerned if he is seen as a first choice starter.