Budget, technical board and youth

[Esablade]

Probably about the same as Clough's

 

[VLYDONIMIR]

Budget is a reduced one as per Wilder’s opening interview.

How reduced? Any budget less than those of the top two budgets in the division is a very poor one for a club of this size. Which is solely down to piss poor ownership.

Wilder's done well with the retained list but apart from that there’s absolutely nothing providing hope.

I hope he hasn’t come thinking he can get us up on next to no budget purely because he did it at Northampton. From what he’s said in his opening interviews, it heavily suggests he has. Talk of this nature will also have been fine music to McCabe’s ears.

Sheffield United is a different beast and you just know it’ll go tits up if he tries the same here. And not only is there the budget to contend with, there’s also going to be this nonsensical technical board, made up entirely of zero footballing knowledge demanding who he can and can’t sign and generally over complicating things.

And then there's been all this talk of youth players coming up to the first team squad. Which is nothing but a recipe for disaster.

All the early signs are not good.

Like a 1001 sub-plots to Jaws.
Bench mark set high.

 

[VLYDONIMIR]

 

[him behind you]

Budget is a reduced one as per Wilder’s opening interview.

How reduced? Any budget less than those of the top two budgets in the division is a very poor one for a club of this size. Which is solely down to piss poor ownership.

Wilder's done well with the retained list but apart from that there’s absolutely nothing providing hope.

I hope he hasn’t come thinking he can get us up on next to no budget purely because he did it at Northampton. From what he’s said in his opening interviews, it heavily suggests he has. Talk of this nature will also have been fine music to McCabe’s ears.

Sheffield United is a different beast and you just know it’ll go tits up if he tries the same here. And not only is there the budget to contend with, there’s also going to be this nonsensical technical board, made up entirely of zero footballing knowledge demanding who he can and can’t sign and generally over complicating things.

And then there's been all this talk of youth players coming up to the first team squad. Which is nothing but a recipe for disaster.

All the early signs are not good.

Over the last few months I've not agreed with you very often Barney, but I think you're spot on with this. Basically McCabe has taken the cheap option here - he did get rid of Adkins for you but managed to replace him with a manager who appears to both meets his requirement of agreeing to do it on the cheap AND appease the fans because of his performance last year and his love of the club. I'm completely behind CW and pray he's successful but I think it's been said on here several times over the last few months -" we needed to be careful what we wished for" which is particularly true with what we have in charge.

 

[him behind you]

If Wilder hadn't got the Blade's connection, would our glorious leaders have appointed him?

Another win/win scenario for them.

We all know the remit, they've got to it right sometime, maybe Chris Wilder can achieve that.
If he does, everyone's happy.
If he doesn't. Will we be happy with a slight progression? That's what KM said he'd be happy with.

I won't.

Me neither mate.

I'd extend your original question a little. If we (the fans) are really honest, would WE have been happy with his appointment based purely on his record (i.e. ignoring his Blade connections)?

 

[alcoblade]

Let's find out shall we. I had a bet on Long last season being number one and was laughed out of town. I think after Scougall, Reed might be the success of this season.

Long was number one because he was less worse than the alternative. Anither 3rd division player, at best.

 

[VLYDONIMIR]

Basically McCabe has taken the cheap option here - he did get rid of Adkins for you but managed to replace him with a manager who appears to both meets his requirement of agreeing to do it on the cheap AND appease the fans because of his performance last year and his love of the club.

Hence.

Win / Win.

[Ya'll know my love of a good hence]

 

[Chali 2na]

Honestly, my gut wrenches when I read this stuff. I honestly think it's a combination of our standards plummeting and people being seduced by the idea of local youth.

All the young players discussed will end up in this division, or much lower.

UTB

I agree with you that none of the players in question are hold a regular starting place in a promotion chasing side, however, my "gut wrenches" upon reading your post.

It wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that the majority of academy players won't make it: it's a harsh reality, but your last sentence about them making it athe this level and below is based on nothing.

You don't see them in training, you don't know their characters, and unless you watch the u21s regularly you haven't seen enough of them on the pitch.

I'm not trying to be abrasive or cause an argument by the way, I just think it's odd that people are so quick to write off players that, at this point are very much an unknown quantity.

We can't forget examples like Matt Lowton. He was very close to being released and didn't show much promise until he was relatively older.

 

[Coily]

Budget is a reduced one as per Wilder’s opening interview.

How reduced? Any budget less than those of the top two budgets in the division is a very poor one for a club of this size. Which is solely down to piss poor ownership.

Wilder's done well with the retained list but apart from that there’s absolutely nothing providing hope.

I hope he hasn’t come thinking he can get us up on next to no budget purely because he did it at Northampton. From what he’s said in his opening interviews, it heavily suggests he has. Talk of this nature will also have been fine music to McCabe’s ears.

Sheffield United is a different beast and you just know it’ll go tits up if he tries the same here. And not only is there the budget to contend with, there’s also going to be this nonsensical technical board, made up entirely of zero footballing knowledge demanding who he can and can’t sign and generally over complicating things.

And then there's been all this talk of youth players coming up to the first team squad. Which is nothing but a recipe for disaster.

All the early signs are not good.

Wilder's done well with the retained list but all the early signs are not good? Based on the fact that Wilder will work within a (to us unknown) budget?

Don't get me wrong, history gives us cause to be fretful about all matters SUFC, but give the new bloke a chance before tarring him with the same brush! Unlike those before, he has taken decisive action, and there is nothing to suggest that he won't be as decisive in recruitment with the aim of promotion firmly locked.

Let's be sensible about this, our budget will be up to the requirements of the FFP, because if it wasn't there would be hell to pay from the fans and the owners know it. And by getting rid of so many with contracts that you can assume are larger than the players talents there is going to more than enough scope for Wilder to get in the players he wants.

I see no reason to be down on Wilder's tenure so far, all two weeks of it, but accept that it's just what Sheffield United fans do...

 

[Sean Thornton]

While we do not have a breakdown of wages in the published accounts, the 2015 figures showed an overall wage cost of around £8.5 million. Clearly the majority is on the football side and in a season where Clough added heavily to the squad obviously increasing the wage bill yet people still go on about it being cut in the season just gone. WWF suggests it could have been £5m ( after editing his original figure of £6m) and others have suggested similar but wjy would it fall dramatically? We have a full year of Brayfords wages, plus Sammon, Edgar, Hammonds costs, whatever they were and it's highly unlikely the players we sent out on loan will have had their full wages paid by Pompey etc, leaving us with a proportion of their wages. Plus unless we have additional expenses we aren't aware of, other than paying the Clough team off, if we were set to lose £8m in 2016 as McCabe seemed to suggest then the wage bill is where to look first I'd have thought.

Speculation I know, but actually based on something tangible.

 

[Cyprus Blade]

I think there are a couple of positives for the season ahead structurally -

The first being I think this will be the first season for a while there will not be a club in the division receiving a parachute payment (Bolton's finished last season I think) - which (at £10m for the final year - remembering our turnover is roughly around the £13m level) is significant. Yes you have to know what to do with the money (unlike Blackpool) but it makes a massive difference. This should level the playing considerably and enable the size of the club's support and finances to be more significant.

The teams coming down do not represent the financial threats of the last few seasons (Wolves,Wigan)

Charlton's - At the end of 2014-5 the club was £46m in debt and it announced a loss of £3.78m in their accounts for the financial year to the end of June 2015.

Bolton - Bolton Wanderers are massively in debt to the tune of £180m+ and the loss of parachute payments will dramatically reduce their turnover.

MK Dons - The last figures I could find showed a turnover of a quarter of ours (£4.4m) y/e 2014 but this will have risen following their Championship presence (at least by £2.3m). They are dependent on businessman Pete Winkleman.

The second is the change in player loan rules. The league clubs who benefitted from "emergency" loans from clubs in the PL and Championship etc will find it harder to secure loan deals on the players on the fringes of a first team breakthrough because the PL and Championship will want to guard against injuries by stockpiling players and will be less willing to deny themselves access to the player by tying them up in a long term loan deal. Clubs wanting to loan a player will now have to make longer-term commitments to signings and this will make them think twice about taking a gamble on inexperienced loanees. The restrictions will also impact on the less wealthy clubs unable carry a larger squad of players. Here is where the academy could come into play.

What we do with our money and the composition of the squad, youth players etc is another matter of course and the scouting area of the club and the Transfer Board are still hugely questionable as to their effectiveness.

 

[Slim Man]

If we'd used our money correctly in at least 1 of the past 5 seasons we'd have gone up.

I think we'll still have a good budget.
Bolton won't be able to match it, Charlton's recruitment strategy is bizzare and MK are ont he verge of losing their manager and talisman to Leeds.

These are the weakest 3 to be relegated in years and if we don't take advantage of it the board, as in the whole board, need to walk away and let someone else lead this club back up the divisions.

 

[Woodwardfan]

I haven't got a clue what you're rambling on about.

What I'm saying is that the fact you "won't be happy with a slight progression" doesn't matter a toss in the whole scheme of things. Tried to wrap it up a bit

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Agree to an extent but loads of teams have proved you don't need millions to get out of this division and we ourselves have proved high salaries don't work.

Agree re the Tech board it's a fucking joke, Mcabe admitted he took his eye off the ball. Well if he cares that much he'd be here overseeing things and not employing his bastard lackeys from the world of property to run a football club.

Spending high wages doesn’t work if your scouting and recruitment is shit and players are signed with no strategy in place. However, Wigan, Bristol, Wolves, Charlton etc. have proven that being able to spend good money makes like a hell of a lot easier if you do even an OK job of it.


It will only be harder on a tighter budget. We just have to hope we get significantly better value for money.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Wage bill over the whole squad, including those already in the squad is one thing.

Total budget for wages and any fees for the new signings is another.

Indeed. He’s already got 10 off the books as well as the loans going back (bar Hammond) so that’s a load off the bill. If he could shift another 3-4 of the transfer listed players, you would hope that if he can reinvest even say 60-70% of the wages saved that we could be a stronger proposition next season. Has to be quality over quantity this time though. We mustn’t clutter the club with tonnes of average players.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

I'm sure that's right, but how much of our "larger budget" is already committed to existing players, that are still nowhere near their worth?

If we have 3 or 4 of the current youngsters heavily involved next season, the we have a relegation battle on our hands.

We must be very active in the transfer market, but I'm concerned about that.

UTB

Assuming that 3 or 4 doesn’t include Long and Adams then I think you’re right, that would be too many but if we have those 2 and say one of Reed and Whiteman playing a lot of football with the other and DCL regulars on the bench, so long as the incoming players are first team quality that improves us then we should be competitive. I think we need at least 6 new players in but 10 or more could be repeating the mistakes of the past.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

I think Reed is good enough now. Whiteman can be a force by Xmas. Lewin a bit longer.

Play these lads in a confident, well organised team and you will be amazed how they can develop. We've not seen such an environment for years.

I think it depends what people mean by “good enough”. It’s a term that gets thrown around a lot as if there is some magical line of quality where players come in above or below to determine whether they can contribute.


In the Ched season we got away with having Simmonsen, Collins and Doyle in the team that amassed 90 points. Most would say those 3 weren’t good enough for a promotion winning team. Porter also played quite a few games that season as did Flynn, Hill, Williams etc.


It goes to show that we could get away with Reed, Whiteman, Calvert Lewin etc. playing a fair few games between them next season IF (and it’s a very big if) the players around them are very good players. We had Evans, Williamson, McDonald, Maguire, Quinn, Lowton and LJF to balance out that squad. We’re unlikely to lad 7 new signings that have that big an impact.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

I am hoping Reed gets a free role this year. The lad can pick a pass and needs to be in a more forward area than we play him. he's wasted

The problem with that is that it means sacrificing a striker to give him that freedom. Given Reed’s poor goal output and that of the rest of the midfielders we have, I’m not sure it’s something we can justify.

 

[Woodwardfan]

While we do not have a breakdown of wages in the published accounts, the 2015 figures showed an overall wage cost of around £8.5 million. Clearly the majority is on the football side and in a season where Clough added heavily to the squad obviously increasing the wage bill yet people still go on about it being cut in the season just gone. WWF suggests it could have been £5m ( after editing his original figure of £6m) and others have suggested similar but wjy would it fall dramatically? We have a full year of Brayfords wages, plus Sammon, Edgar, Hammonds costs, whatever they were and it's highly unlikely the players we sent out on loan will have had their full wages paid by Pompey etc, leaving us with a proportion of their wages. Plus unless we have additional expenses we aren't aware of, other than paying the Clough team off, if we were set to lose £8m in 2016 as McCabe seemed to suggest then the wage bill is where to look first I'd have thought.

Speculation I know, but actually based on something tangible.

Sean, thanks for placing on record the fact that I edited a figure, sure everybody needed to know that. Good to know you are paying real time attention though Still think it could be £6m actually or anything between £5m and £6m. The point remains that it will naturally come down after the big investments made available to Clough and then Adkins on top of Clough's bloated squad. Therefore we fans don't need to read too much into it all.

Paying Adkins and his team off will fall in the 2016/17 accounts but hopefully will be covered as an exceptional item by the owners and won't have too much impact on the wage bill. I think they'll settle with a few of the 7 listed players too and will hopefully treat that outside the manager's wage budget.

P.S. I edited the word 'then' above.

 

[Woodwardfan]

Budget is a reduced one as per Wilder’s opening interview.

How reduced? Any budget less than those of the top two budgets in the division is a very poor one for a club of this size. Which is solely down to piss poor ownership.

Wilder's done well with the retained list but apart from that there’s absolutely nothing providing hope.

I hope he hasn’t come thinking he can get us up on next to no budget purely because he did it at Northampton. From what he’s said in his opening interviews, it heavily suggests he has. Talk of this nature will also have been fine music to McCabe’s ears.

Sheffield United is a different beast and you just know it’ll go tits up if he tries the same here. And not only is there the budget to contend with, there’s also going to be this nonsensical technical board, made up entirely of zero footballing knowledge demanding who he can and can’t sign and generally over complicating things.

And then there's been all this talk of youth players coming up to the first team squad. Which is nothing but a recipe for disaster.

All the early signs are not good.

Very good O.P. and thread Barney.

 

[Woodwardfan]

The problem with that is that it means sacrificing a striker to give him that freedom. Given Reed’s poor goal output and that of the rest of the midfielders we have, I’m not sure it’s something we can justify.

I'd love to see Adams in that role, call it No.10 or whatever, a free role behind and in support of the lone striker or two strikers. Scougall can play there too if he gets his positive head together.

I see Reed central midfield, playing alongside the midfield anchor man and feeding off him to build attacks from deep. Yes he can pick a pass and his better ones I remember have been from deep in our half e.g. QPR. Bradford.

 

[Darthblade]

Let's find out shall we. I had a bet on Long last season being number one and was laughed out of town. I think after Scougall, Reed might be the success of this season.

The problem is the Division we are serving our self-imposed exile in, not the players themselves.

Reed is a decent technical player and as you say he can pick a pass ....... however, the cold hard facts are that he's not big & strong enough to earn the right to play in this agricultural Division. The standard of officials is so poor that Reed is simply fouled off the ball most of the time and at this level, he doesn't get awarded a foul even when one is committed. That is simply not going to change.

Scougal is exactly the same ...... a bit more pace than Reed but he can't pass a ball or shoot. However, the problem is he is simply shoved off the ball and no foul is awarded and that won't change either. Remember Bradford away in front of the Sky cameras, with the wrestling throw !!!!

Play those two against a lower end Premiership side with a Premiership referee in charge and they may be ok ...... but in this agricultural Division they are completely ineffective and that isn't going to change.

UTB & FTP

 

[1danewhitehouse]

I'd love to see Adams in that role, call it No.10 or whatever, a free role behind and in support of the lone striker or two strikers. Scougall can play there too if he gets his positive head together.

I see Reed central midfield, playing alongside the midfield anchor man and feeding off him to build attacks from deep. Yes he can pick a pass and his better ones I remember have been from deep in our half e.g. QPR. Bradford.

Agree about the Reed passing. Remember a through-ball in a 2-0 win over Yeovil at home for Murphy. Think he did the same in the home win over Swindon and one for McNulty v QPR.

 

[alcoblade]

I agree with you that none of the players in question are hold a regular starting place in a promotion chasing side, however, my "gut wrenches" upon reading your post.

It wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that the majority of academy players won't make it: it's a harsh reality, but your last sentence about them making it athe this level and below is based on nothing.

You don't see them in training, you don't know their characters, and unless you watch the u21s regularly you haven't seen enough of them on the pitch.

I'm not trying to be abrasive or cause an argument by the way, I just think it's odd that people are so quick to write off players that, at this point are very much an unknown quantity.

We can't forget examples like Matt Lowton. He was very close to being released and didn't show much promise until he was relatively older.

I've heard the same stuff for a decade. And a decade later were still dining out on Walker and Maguire.

UTB

 

[Woodwardfan]

The problem is the Division we are serving our self-imposed exile in, not the players themselves.

Reed is a decent technical player and as you say he can pick a pass ....... however, the cold hard facts are that he's not big & strong enough to earn the right to play in this agricultural Division. The standard of officials is so poor that Reed is simply fouled off the ball most of the time and at this level, he doesn't get awarded a foul even when one is committed. That is simply not going to change.

Scougal is exactly the same ...... a bit more pace than Reed but he can't pass a ball or shoot. However, the problem is he is simply shoved off the ball and no foul is awarded and that won't change either. Remember Bradford away in front of the Sky cameras, with the wrestling throw !!!!

Play those two against a lower end Premiership side with a Premiership referee in charge and they may be ok ...... but in this agricultural Division they are completely ineffective and that isn't going to change.

UTB & FTP[/QUOTE

Very true but the players have to make it happen. At least they can both trap a ball, play with their head up and move the ball forward. Some of our other players can't.

Both Reed and Scougall have to make their physiques their strengths rather than their weaknesses.

One home game last season ( forget who)the smallest player on the pitch ran the show all game and he was smaller than both of our two. Small players are often the best players at any level, but they have to be mentally tough.

See above sorry ( another edit Sean)

 

[Chali 2na]

I've heard the same stuff for a decade. And a decade later were still dining out on Walker and Maguire.

UTB

You're side stepping my original point. I'm saying you're not qualified to unequivocally state that the players in question won't make it beyond league 1.

As for our academy's past success, you'd be right in saying that it has been a little underwhelming. I think when we have had as many as many managers, playing philosophies and transfer policies as we have in the last decade then it will always be difficult to bring players through.

 

[Boxer Blade]

I think there are a couple of positives for the season ahead structurally -

The first being I think this will be the first season for a while there will not be a club in the division receiving a parachute payment (Bolton's finished last season I think) - which (at £10m for the final year - remembering our turnover is roughly around the £13m level) is significant. Yes you have to know what to do with the money (unlike Blackpool) but it makes a massive difference. This should level the playing considerably and enable the size of the club's support and finances to be more significant.

The teams coming down do not represent the financial threats of the last few seasons (Wolves,Wigan)

Charlton's - At the end of 2014-5 the club was £46m in debt and it announced a loss of £3.78m in their accounts for the financial year to the end of June 2015.

Bolton - Bolton Wanderers are massively in debt to the tune of £180m+ and the loss of parachute payments will dramatically reduce their turnover.

MK Dons - The last figures I could find showed a turnover of a quarter of ours (£4.4m) y/e 2014 but this will have risen following their Championship presence (at least by £2.3m). They are dependent on businessman Pete Winkleman.

The second is the change in player loan rules. The league clubs who benefitted from "emergency" loans from clubs in the PL and Championship etc will find it harder to secure loan deals on the players on the fringes of a first team breakthrough because the PL and Championship will want to guard against injuries by stockpiling players and will be less willing to deny themselves access to the player by tying them up in a long term loan deal. Clubs wanting to loan a player will now have to make longer-term commitments to signings and this will make them think twice about taking a gamble on inexperienced loanees. The restrictions will also impact on the less wealthy clubs unable carry a larger squad of players. Here is where the academy could come into play.

What we do with our money and the composition of the squad, youth players etc is another matter of course and the scouting area of the club and the Transfer Board are still hugely questionable as to their effectiveness.

Good points, but I believe Bolton have been taken over and most/all? of there debts have been written off by the previous owner, that said I think it is now a consortium in charge and although wealthy by our standards I dont think there are any bighitters, stability for Bolton I reckon.

 

[sheffielder]

Over the last few months I've not agreed with you very often Barney, but I think you're spot on with this. Basically McCabe has taken the cheap option here - he did get rid of Adkins for you but managed to replace him with a manager who appears to both meets his requirement of agreeing to do it on the cheap AND appease the fans because of his performance last year and his love of the club. I'm completely behind CW and pray he's successful but I think it's been said on here several times over the last few months -" we needed to be careful what we wished for" which is particularly true with what we have in charge.

What other expensive option would you have gone with if not Wilder?

 

[sheffielder]

The problem with that is that it means sacrificing a striker to give him that freedom. Given Reed’s poor goal output and that of the rest of the midfielders we have, I’m not sure it’s something we can justify.

But you also need to create. If you have someone like Reed loading the gun for Done, Sharp and Adams?

 

[Cyprus Blade]

If you have someone like Reed loading the gun for Done, Sharp and Adams?

then you are in trouble. He's young, short, lightweight and seems to have fragile confidence. One bad game seems to sit on his shoulders (eg Notts County away the season before this). His assists record is as poor as the rest of the midfield and his defensive work is sloppy. Sorry I don't think he is ready for a starting 11 berth yet, let alone being the lynchpin. Sadly he may never be. A support player at best next season for me, but I hope I am wrong.