Young Academy Prospects

[larkymasher]

I have just read that Mikael Ndjoli one of our U21 trialists at the end of last season looks like signing for Premier League Bournemouth, although Arsenal and Palace are still keen to get this lad in. ( BBC SPORT PAGES )

From 95% of posts that watched this lad playing, he made no impact with us and was no better than any of our 16/17 or 18 year olds we currently have.

All of a sudden he is off to the Premier League after Millwall did not offer him a Pro Contract in March.

It suggests to me that while threads are posted that this young player is not good enough or that player is not what SUFC need, we should be giving these lads a bit of slack and let them develop without the negative views which are constantly spouted.

It also says to me that CAT 1,2,3 is a load of bollocks. Its all about opinions.

This lad was not good enough for SUFC in many peoples opinion but is good enough to attract 3 Premier League clubs............. i think we need to lower our standards a little. Many views think that if these lads are not a Walker or Magiure then bin them.......

 

[Woodwardfan]

I have just read that Mikael Ndjoli one of our U21 trialists at the end of last season looks like signing for Premier League Bournemouth, although Arsenal and Palace are still keen to get this lad in. ( BBC SPORT PAGES )

From 95% of posts that watched this lad playing, he made no impact with us and was no better than any of our 16/17 or 18 year olds we currently have.

All of a sudden he is off to the Premier League after Millwall did not offer him a Pro Contract in March.

It suggests to me that while threads are posted that this young player is not good enough or that player is not what SUFC need, we should be giving these lads a bit of slack and let them develop without the negative views which are constantly spouted.

It also says to me that CAT 1,2,3 is a load of bollocks. Its all about opinions.

This lad was not good enough for SUFC in many peoples opinion but is good enough to attract 3 Premier League clubs............. i think we need to lower our standards a little. Many views think that if these lads are not a Walker or Magiure then bin them.......

It's the Academy system that's loaded against us and in favour of the big cubs these days that we need to bother about too.

 

[Treeton Blade]

Lets see what he does in his career, before casting aspersions.

Just because he may or may not be signing for a Premiership club, dosen`t mean we got it wrong.

Saw him twice, quick, strong, left footed, so the basic tools are there, and thats what scouts look for.
But in both games I saw him there was no end product, that may come in time, some players never improve that side of their game.

 

[Woodwardfan]

Take a look at another thread "Long's new deal almost wrapped up". Some of our doubting fans are displaying all the insecurities mentioned in the O.P.

We do not need 24 world beaters in our squad so yes, let's cut the lads loads of slack.

 

[DazBlade88]

Saw him twice, quick, strong, left footed, so the basic tools are there, and thats what scouts look for.
But in both games I saw him there was no end product, that may come in time, some players never improve that side of their game.

The way I look at it is that he has the attributes you can't teach but not the attribute you can teach.

That's what the coaches want to work on. It's an unknown with potential because it's down to how well coached he's going to be and how much work the lad wants to put in to it. It's all part of the gamble. Sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't.

 

[larkymasher]

Lets see what he does in his career, before casting aspersions.

Just because he may or may not be signing for a Premiership club, dosen`t mean we got it wrong.

Saw him twice, quick, strong, left footed, so the basic tools are there, and thats what scouts look for.
But in both games I saw him there was no end product, that may come in time, some players never improve that side of their game.

I am not saying we got it wrong. I watched him also in those games.

The point i am making is that we have players in our system who, given time may prove to be good enough. I think you will agree that these lads need to be given that time to develop and not be decided on after 5 or 6 first team games.

A few threads make opinions far to early on our academy lads. which is very harsh on young lads trying to make their way in the game.

 

[Barney]

There's no cast iron proofs with young players. Until you see how they develop during their careers. A player going to a premier league club doesn't prove we've got it wrong, just as keeping a player doesn't mean we've got it right.

Academy systems are put in place with the main purpose, ultimately, of deciding whether players are good enough (if/when) for first team football. In the end, you have to have trust in those systems and in the people that have the responsibility over decision making.

Otherwise there's not much point in having it.

 

[larkymasher]

At what point to we say a player was a success from our Academy?

100 1st games and rising in league 2?

Nicky Law ? The lad Gregory at Millwall ?

Ironside making a living in non league?

A lad coming to SUFC at 16 and getting in the first team or a lad who has been with us since 8 years old and getting in the first team. ?

 

[Treeton Blade]

I am not saying we got it wrong. I watched him also in those games.

The point i am making is that we have players in our system who, given time may prove to be good enough. I think you will agree that these lads need to be given that time to develop and not be decided on after 5 or 6 first team games.

A few threads make opinions far to early on our academy lads. which is very harsh on young lads trying to make their way in the game.

Too true, I`m guilty of that myself, but its a game of opinions, so once you see a player, however young, you have that first impression, and opinions form.

I agree though, and had egg on my face with Kyle Walker, who was average for the U18s, but grew into a man during his loan spell at Northampton Town.

 

[boo radley]

It's the Academy system that's loaded against us and in favour of the big cubs these days that we need to bother about too.

We are a 'big club' arnt we?

 

[larkymasher]

We are a 'big club' arnt we?

That is exactly the issue we have.

Big Club ........ Little League

Big club attracts big players..... Little League doesn't ............................. Big Players big money..... Little League on a budget

 

[BushBlade]

I have just read that Mikael Ndjoli one of our U21 trialists at the end of last season looks like signing for Premier League Bournemouth, although Arsenal and Palace are still keen to get this lad in. ( BBC SPORT PAGES )

From 95% of posts that watched this lad playing, he made no impact with us and was no better than any of our 16/17 or 18 year olds we currently have.

All of a sudden he is off to the Premier League after Millwall did not offer him a Pro Contract in March.

It suggests to me that while threads are posted that this young player is not good enough or that player is not what SUFC need, we should be giving these lads a bit of slack and let them develop without the negative views which are constantly spouted.

It also says to me that CAT 1,2,3 is a load of bollocks. Its all about opinions.

This lad was not good enough for SUFC in many peoples opinion but is good enough to attract 3 Premier League clubs............. i think we need to lower our standards a little. Many views think that if these lads are not a Walker or Magiure then bin them.......

Doesn't matter what we think though we don't sign them. Maybe your ire should be directed at those who decided he wasn't good enough and didn't sign him.

Very few people are saying the good young prospects will never be good enough, the concern is that they are not ready and won't be for next season, whereas KM appears to expect Wilder to use some of them.

Right now, the best thing for the academy in the long term is us getting promoted and that has to be the only aim. We won't achieve this if we think we can just chuck young kids in.

 

[larkymasher]

That is my point exactly.

Where these lads need the time to progress in the correct way, the fact McCabe has come out and stacked the pressure on these lads is wrong.

It then encourages opinions on them too early......

Whether the lad in question was good enough or not is actually irrelevant, Its the fact that not all potential CAT1 Academy players are any better than we have, in that respect the future looks in good shape.

 

[CarlingBlade]

I hear Charlton are ditching their academy.

 

[alcoblade]

I have just read that Mikael Ndjoli one of our U21 trialists at the end of last season looks like signing for Premier League Bournemouth, although Arsenal and Palace are still keen to get this lad in. ( BBC SPORT PAGES )

From 95% of posts that watched this lad playing, he made no impact with us and was no better than any of our 16/17 or 18 year olds we currently have.

All of a sudden he is off to the Premier League after Millwall did not offer him a Pro Contract in March.

It suggests to me that while threads are posted that this young player is not good enough or that player is not what SUFC need, we should be giving these lads a bit of slack and let them develop without the negative views which are constantly spouted.

It also says to me that CAT 1,2,3 is a load of bollocks. Its all about opinions.

This lad was not good enough for SUFC in many peoples opinion but is good enough to attract 3 Premier League clubs............. i think we need to lower our standards a little. Many views think that if these lads are not a Walker or Magiure then bin them.......

The main point of my criticism of the academy is covered in your post. These young lads can get picked off by the best academies. What's more, the rules that compensated you have been switched on favour of the big clubs.

The youngsters develop independent of message board talk. In has no baring whatsoever on their progress,

UTB

 

[BushBlade]

I hear Charlton are ditching their academy.

That's a shame. It looks like they had a few decent kids there too. I'd have thought they'd have been benefitting from it in the next year or so, if they haven't already with the likes of Shelvey.

But their owner doesn't seem to be very good at running the club so not someone we should be taking a lead from.

 

[Silent Blade]

I hear Charlton are ditching their academy.

No surprise if there will be more clubs doing the same

 

[Benny and the Blades]

Most of the good young ones we've had came from an Academy, but some one elses.
In the long run it's a very drawn out and costly way of trying to build a team and if the club are going to sell any that come through, whats the point ?

 

[alcoblade]

Most of the good young ones we've had came from an Academy, but some one elses.
In the long run it's a very drawn out and costly way of trying to build a team and if the club are going to sell any that come through, whats the point ?

And the emotional attachment people place on local youth goes into overdrive when they're sold.

I'm fairly certain the academy has cost far more than it's brought in. I'm totally convinced that it's had an overall negative impact on the psyche of our fans - because of the gap between what they expect and what it delivers

UTB

 

[Darthblade]

That's a shame. It looks like they had a few decent kids there too. I'd have thought they'd have been benefitting from it in the next year or so, if they haven't already with the likes of Shelvey.

But their owner doesn't seem to be very good at running the club so not someone we should be taking a lead from.

Its fair to say that their owner isn't the only owner who is crap at running a football Club .........

UTB & FTP

 

[Alfreton14Blade]

In the same way that we're vulnerable to having players poached by cat. 1 academies, so then are clubs lower down the food chain to cat. 2 academies like ours.

Not saying that the stacking of the rules in favour of the footballing giants is right, far from it. But it's something we can get too hung up on. There's a limit to the number of footballers they can process through their meat factories. And, moreover, they recruit widely even at youth level from foreign markets, further limiting the numbers of English youths they can have on their books.

The academy's not a miracle source of food for the club, but it is very well run & is something to be very proud of IMO. And McCabe's right in saying it ought to be utilised more than it has been. The failure to use it properly has all been part of the wider, failed "quick fix" approach to get us out of this division (i.e. recruiting has beens on the way down as "proven championship performers").

Bit of a critical juncture for it now though, what with Nick Cox's departure. A big job on young shoulders for Travis.

 

[alcoblade]

In the same way that we're vulnerable to having players poached by cat. 1 academies, so then are clubs lower down the food chain to cat. 2 academies like ours.

Not saying that the stacking of the rules in favour of the footballing giants is right, far from it. But it's something we can get too hung up on. There's a limit to the number of footballers they can process through their meat factories. And, moreover, they recruit widely even at youth level from foreign markets, further limiting the numbers of English youths they can have on their books.

The academy's not a miracle source of food for the club, but it is very well run & is something to be very proud of IMO. And McCabe's right in saying it ought to be utilised more than it has been. The failure to use it properly has all been part of the wider, failed "quick fix" approach to get us out of this division (i.e. recruiting has beens on the way down as "proven championship performers").

Bit of a critical juncture for it now though, what with Nick Cox's departure. A big job on young shoulders for Travis.

Which academy players should have played more?

 

[Benny and the Blades]

Where on earth are we going to stack all these young players while waiting to see if they can make it after turning pro. and Is it really the way forward or is it just an excuse to not sign anybody ?

 

[Alfreton14Blade]

Which academy players should have played more?

Ben Whiteman, for starters. Compared to the competition he was up against in the midfield berths, Louis Reed should have been played more than he was too. And, by the time DCL had returned from his loan, he was a better option than the failed Sammon.

It's not necessarily about outstanding individuals though, more about integrating the best of what we do have within the first team environment & having them on hand to appear sparingly. (And not done in a tokenistic way, like it was at the end of the season just gone.)

 

[BushBlade]

In the same way that we're vulnerable to having players poached by cat. 1 academies, so then are clubs lower down the food chain to cat. 2 academies like ours.

Not saying that the stacking of the rules in favour of the footballing giants is right, far from it. But it's something we can get too hung up on. There's a limit to the number of footballers they can process through their meat factories. And, moreover, they recruit widely even at youth level from foreign markets, further limiting the numbers of English youths they can have on their books.

The academy's not a miracle source of food for the club, but it is very well run & is something to be very proud of IMO. And McCabe's right in saying it ought to be utilised more than it has been. The failure to use it properly has all been part of the wider, failed "quick fix" approach to get us out of this division (i.e. recruiting has beens on the way down as "proven championship performers").

Bit of a critical juncture for it now though, what with Nick Cox's departure. A big job on young shoulders for Travis.

But every time we sack a manager we reduce our chances of the next one taking a longer term view. In fact, I think it's fair to say the club has to take a short term view now because the majority of supporters have just lost patience with being in L1.

At this juncture, IMHO, developing youth and getting promoted are conflicting aims. We need to concentrate solely on getting promoted and to do that we need players with some experience. I don't necessarily mean vast amounts but a season or two playing adult football.

As far as the youth players are concerned, once they've played fifty or so u-21s games I think they should be out on loan in L2 learning in a proper competitive environment.
The ones that do well either given a chance next season or, if we do go up, sent on loan to L1. Obviously if one excels you'd accelerate his progress.

 

[Alfreton14Blade]

But every time we sack a manager we reduce our chances of the next one taking a longer term view. In fact, I think it's fair to say the club has to take a short term view now because the majority of supporters have just lost patience with being in L1.

At this juncture, IMHO, developing youth and getting promoted are conflicting aims. We need to concentrate solely on getting promoted and to do that we need players with some experience. I don't necessarily mean vast amounts but a season or two playing adult football.

As far as the youth players are concerned, once they've played fifty or so u-21s games I think they should be out on loan in L2 learning in a proper competitive environment.
The ones that do well either given a chance next season or, if we do go up, sent on loan to L1. Obviously if one excels you'd accelerate his progress.

I don't agree with your opinion that "developing youth and getting promoted are conflicting aims", Bush, tbh. Millwall have done it this season & are still in with a great shout of going up. And, of all this season's promotion contenders, it's Millwall who we'll be most closely modelled on next season, I'd imagine.

Not to say that I disagree with your wider point about the impatience & the ongoing imperative to get promoted. But, if McCabe insists to Wilder that he wants a number of u21s integrated within a smaller first team squad, I don't think that's an unreasonable demand to make - it's just a parameter he has to work within & be committed to, in the best interests of the club going forwards. Of course, it's down to Wilder whether he makes these youngsters first team regulars or not &, realistically right now, it seems that only Whiteman's seriously knocking on the door in that regard. But we need a more serious commitment to properly develop the cream of these players (on a ongoing basis) as potential first teamers & not to have the academy existing as mere window dressing. Other clubs do it, & so can we.

 

[alcoblade]

I don't agree with your opinion that "developing youth and getting promoted are conflicting aims", Bush, tbh. Millwall have done it this season & are still in with a great shout of going up. And, of all this season's promotion contenders, it's Millwall who we'll be most closely modelled on next season, I'd imagine.

Not to say that I disagree with your wider point about the impatience & the ongoing imperative to get promoted. But, if McCabe insists to Wilder that he wants a number of u21s integrated within a smaller first team squad, I don't think that's an unreasonable demand to make - it's just a parameter he has to work within & be committed to, in the best interests of the club going forwards. Of course, it's down to Wilder whether he makes these youngsters first team regulars or not &, realistically right now, it seems that only Whiteman's seriously knocking on the door in that regard. But we need a more serious commitment to properly develop the cream of these players (on a ongoing basis) as potential first teamers & not to have the academy existing as mere window dressing. Other clubs do it, & so can we.

I think we have cause and effect mixed up though. Although having a bloated squad hasn't helped providing space, the young players coming through look miles off promotion chasing players. I've no doubt if they weren't, both Clough and Adkins would have played them more.

I think we should be questioning the quality of players coming through, not why they aren't being given opportunities.

UTB

 

[Barney]

The academy has slowed up considerably of late.

Players coming through tend to lack height, physicality and most importantly, ability.

Other clubs players coming through look bigger, stronger, faster, more confident athletes.

Ours look small, weak, fragile and petrified.

 

[alcoblade]

The academy has slowed up considerably of late.

Players coming through tend to lack height, physicality and most importantly, ability.

Other clubs players coming through look bigger, stronger, faster, more confident athletes.

Ours look small, weak, fragile and petrified.

Yep, this. I've wondered if our academy has fallen victim of those calling for a "change of ethos" after relegation. Physicality became a dirty word, replaced by an aspiration to turn us into Leon Britton clones.

UTB

 

[BushBlade]

I don't agree with your opinion that "developing youth and getting promoted are conflicting aims", Bush, tbh. Millwall have done it this season & are still in with a great shout of going up. And, of all this season's promotion contenders, it's Millwall who we'll be most closely modelled on next season, I'd imagine.

Not to say that I disagree with your wider point about the impatience & the ongoing imperative to get promoted. But, if McCabe insists to Wilder that he wants a number of u21s integrated within a smaller first team squad, I don't think that's an unreasonable demand to make - it's just a parameter he has to work within & be committed to, in the best interests of the club going forwards. Of course, it's down to Wilder whether he makes these youngsters first team regulars or not &, realistically right now, it seems that only Whiteman's seriously knocking on the door in that regard. But we need a more serious commitment to properly develop the cream of these players (on a ongoing basis) as potential first teamers & not to have the academy existing as mere window dressing. Other clubs do it, & so can we.

How many youth players have Millwall given debuts to this season and how many games did each of them play?