Wilson v Clough

[Jim Chimmerney]

I've mentioned the comparison a couple of times recently and it's mentioned elsewhere today so I thought I'd summarise the two and to me, there's not a lot between them yet the latter seems to have been given much more leeway (to date).

Wilson

2011/12

Inherited a great squad, albeit down in the dumps following relegation but played great football and would have taken us straight back up given a fair wind, as debated trillions of times.

Hardly any transfer activity, 6 in including Flynn, McDonald, 7 out including Henderson and £1M for Slew

2012/13

Lost Evans and was forced to balance the books by selling Lowton, Williamson and Quinn amongst others in the Summer, brought 10 in (including Howard, Murphy, Blackman), Blackman also went in January.

Never really managed to re-create the football from the previous season and was sacked after a terrible run, particularly at home with 5 games to go albeit only 6 points away from 2nd place with 2 games in hand.

Win % 51.89
Sacked with the club having 70pts from 41 games


Clough

2013/14

After Weir's buying and selling, inherited a fairly decent squad when he took over in October adding Scougall and Harris in January. Sorted out the defence, got us clear of potential relegation and then a great end of season just missing out on play-offs.

2014/15

Lost Maguire and key loanees from the previous season, missed out on his prime targets in the Summer but still spent money. Had an up and down 1st half of the season, never really hitting the heights of the run last year but spent as much in January as probably anyone since the Robson debacle. Inconsistent again, looking good at times but throwing in a stinker every few games.

Win % 49.49
Currently 68pts from 43 games

What's interesting is that Wilson was sacked when in touching distance of automatic yet Clough seems to have the backing of the board for reaching the play-offs in what is being called a re-building season.

Wilson inherited a much better squad than Clough but Clough has spent much more than Wilson. Wilson had to sell in his 2nd season and balance the books whereas Clough has been on the up since day 1 spending wise.

We're currently in a worse position than when Wilson was sacked in terms of league position and under Clough, since winning away at the league leaders have managed 6 wins in 15 putting in some shocking performances.

Time will tell whether the Board will stick with him and it may still yet end in success but looking at the above, he's lucky to still be be where he is.

 

[Revolution]

The main thing this shows (once again) is how stupid the decision to fire Wilson was.

 

[TonyAgana]

The main thing this shows (once again) is how stupid the decision to fire Wilson was.

Just going to say exactly that. It also shows how patient an Arabian Royal is compared to Kevin McCabe.

 

[HeCanDoMagic]

Wow. You forget don't you, 6 points off 2nd with 2 games in hand. What we'd give for that now.

 

[metalblade]

Shows to me that Wilson is a better manager than Clough and he was shite apart from his first season.

 

[longinthe toothblade]

I've mentioned the comparison a couple of times recently and it's mentioned elsewhere today so I thought I'd summarise the two and to me, there's not a lot between them yet the latter seems to have been given much more leeway (to date).

Wilson

2011/12

Inherited a great squad, albeit down in the dumps following relegation but played great football and would have taken us straight back up given a fair wind, as debated trillions of times.

Hardly any transfer activity, 6 in including Flynn, McDonald, 7 out including Henderson and £1M for Slew

2012/13

Lost Evans and was forced to balance the books by selling Lowton, Williamson and Quinn amongst others in the Summer, brought 10 in (including Howard, Murphy, Blackman), Blackman also went in January.

Never really managed to re-create the football from the previous season and was sacked after a terrible run, particularly at home with 5 games to go albeit only 6 points away from 2nd place with 2 games in hand.

Win % 51.89
Sacked with the club having 70pts from 41 games


Clough

2013/14

After Weir's buying and selling, inherited a fairly decent squad when he took over in October adding Scougall and Harris in January. Sorted out the defence, got us clear of potential relegation and then a great end of season just missing out on play-offs.

2014/15

Lost Maguire and key loanees from the previous season, missed out on his prime targets in the Summer but still spent money. Had an up and down 1st half of the season, never really hitting the heights of the run last year but spent as much in January as probably anyone since the Robson debacle. Inconsistent again, looking good at times but throwing in a stinker every few games.

Win % 49.49
Currently 68pts from 43 games

What's interesting is that Wilson was sacked when in touching distance of automatic yet Clough seems to have the backing of the board for reaching the play-offs in what is being called a re-building season.

Wilson inherited a much better squad than Clough but Clough has spent much more than Wilson. Wilson had to sell in his 2nd season and balance the books whereas Clough has been on the up since day 1 spending wise.

We're currently in a worse position than when Wilson was sacked in terms of league position and under Clough, since winning away at the league leaders have managed 6 wins in 15 putting in some shocking performances.

Time will tell whether the Board will stick with him and it may still yet end in success but looking at the above, he's lucky to still be be where he is.

Can't argue with it can you.

Also agree with 'Revolution' 100% and I have it on reasonable authority that McCabe knows he fucked up too. Not wanting to repeat his cock up has [quite rightly] bought young Cloughy a little bit more time than normal.

All that said, McCabe is McCabe and he won't remain dormant for long.

In the awful scenario that we really fuck up again and we don't make the play offs, Clough will be vaporised.

If we make the play offs [as we should] and don't perform, Clough will be vaporised.

Even if we get promoted, I reckon McCabe and Clough will be having a long chat. Perhaps not vaporised, but definitely he'll be on probation.

That would present another tricky situation of course i.e. "of how much of the budget for new players do you give a manager on the brink?" Do you bring in a 'Director of Football' to de-risk that scenario?

Squeaky bum time all round.

UTBs

 

[secretchief]

It was me that raised this earlier and the metric appears to be that Clough operating at 100% and Wilson with his hands tied are about the same calibre of manager.

 

[Aston max]

Wilson was a much dirtier player

 

[judge]

0 -0
end of thread

 

[Keef Chedwyn]

I must say I liked Wilson, with a good side he had us playing some lovely stuff but without the players or budget he was pretty crap. If we had him now, we would have more points.

However, I'd much rather have Clough going in to the play offs. He somehow pulls it off in the big games.

 

[Slug]

Wilson was also much more likeable and didn't come across as a bitter, petty man.

 

[Woodwardfan]

Both are journeymen managers lucky to be in employment for so many years.

Nothing to choose between them except Wilson was not restricted by employing a relative as the Head Scout.

Both men are happy, contented family men at a later stage in life. Their hunger for fame and fortune had abated by the time they joined us.

Seriously, United need a hungry manager with hungry players not a club built on the old pals and family act.

 

[sheffielder]

Football has moved on since these guys came into management. All the teams who seem to be doing well are the quick attacking teams and certainly not teams hoping to keep it tight and nick it. Nigel needs to adapt or move on

 

[davidpinder]

I've mentioned the comparison a couple of times recently and it's mentioned elsewhere today so I thought I'd summarise the two and to me, there's not a lot between them yet the latter seems to have been given much more leeway (to date).

Wilson

2011/12

Inherited a great squad, albeit down in the dumps following relegation but played great football and would have taken us straight back up given a fair wind, as debated trillions of times.

Hardly any transfer activity, 6 in including Flynn, McDonald, 7 out including Henderson and £1M for Slew

2012/13

Lost Evans and was forced to balance the books by selling Lowton, Williamson and Quinn amongst others in the Summer, brought 10 in (including Howard, Murphy, Blackman), Blackman also went in January.

Never really managed to re-create the football from the previous season and was sacked after a terrible run, particularly at home with 5 games to go albeit only 6 points away from 2nd place with 2 games in hand.

Win % 51.89
Sacked with the club having 70pts from 41 games


Clough

2013/14

After Weir's buying and selling, inherited a fairly decent squad when he took over in October adding Scougall and Harris in January. Sorted out the defence, got us clear of potential relegation and then a great end of season just missing out on play-offs.

2014/15

Lost Maguire and key loanees from the previous season, missed out on his prime targets in the Summer but still spent money. Had an up and down 1st half of the season, never really hitting the heights of the run last year but spent as much in January as probably anyone since the Robson debacle. Inconsistent again, looking good at times but throwing in a stinker every few games.

Win % 49.49
Currently 68pts from 43 games

What's interesting is that Wilson was sacked when in touching distance of automatic yet Clough seems to have the backing of the board for reaching the play-offs in what is being called a re-building season.

Wilson inherited a much better squad than Clough but Clough has spent much more than Wilson. Wilson had to sell in his 2nd season and balance the books whereas Clough has been on the up since day 1 spending wise.

We're currently in a worse position than when Wilson was sacked in terms of league position and under Clough, since winning away at the league leaders have managed 6 wins in 15 putting in some shocking performances.

Time will tell whether the Board will stick with him and it may still yet end in success but looking at the above, he's lucky to still be be where he is.

Great post Jim this is something I have brought up a few times, I also would like to add we lost just 7 games in 41 under Wilson in that season Clough has now lost 13 in 43 we had lost 12 in 41. We were also top on a number of occasions during wilsons last season.

 

[cooperblade]

Football has moved on since these guys came into management. All the teams who seem to be doing well are the quick attacking teams and certainly not teams hoping to keep it tight and nick it. Nigel needs to adapt or move on

In a division where the top 2 are managed by Steve Cotterill and Simon Grayson, I'd say the dinosaurs are not only roaming the earth but flourishing. I'm not sure there's been much moving on in League 1.

 

[ScoobBlade]

The main thing this shows (once again) is how stupid the decision to fire Wilson was.

Yet so many on here were crying out for it to happen at the time

 

[Revolution]

Yet so many on here were crying out for it to happen at the time

This came up a few weeks ago. As I said then, I don't think that's true. A few people were, but most people thought it was a dumb move.

 

[Dkc]

Taken in isolation, six points off automatic with two games in hand sounds like a decent position, but we were on a slump when Wilson was sacked, and it looked like we were only heading in one direction - downwards.

The board was probably influenced by the Pigs' successful managerial change the previous season, where a switch going into the final few games (Jones for Megson) gave them the momentum they needed to snatch second place.

In hindsight it was a very unfair sacking, especially as Wilson was replaced by his untried deputy (Morgan). At the time, it was a gamble that many thought was worth taking, and I remember thinkingat the time that it may have ben an inspirational decision. As it turns out, it wasn't, and it's interesting to hear LITTB say that he "has it on reasonable authority that McCabe knows he fucked up". Of course he did but hindsight is easy.

And yes, memories of the Wilson /Morgan failure has probably bought NC more time. As the autos have been out of reach for a couple of months, so there's little point in sacking him.

Strangely enough, if we were in the top two for most of the season then dropped into the play offs (with still a chance of autos) in March / April a la Wilson his job might have been in more danger than it is now,

 

[YES Blade]

This came up a few weeks ago. As I said then, I don't think that's true. A few people were, but most people thought it was a dumb move.

I viewed it as a nothing to lose gamble as I highly doubt that Wilson would have taken us up anyway.

Put the club legend in charge for the final few matches and hope that it is enough to get everyone going and take us up.

Fair enough it didn't work, but I'm pretty sure Wilson wouldn't have either so what did we lose?

 

[Revolution]

I viewed it as a nothing to lose gamble as I highly doubt that Wilson would have taken us up anyway.

Put the club legend in charge for the final few matches and hope that it is enough to get everyone going and take us up.

Fair enough it didn't work, but I'm pretty sure Wilson wouldn't have either so what did we lose?

Had Wilson not been fired, we might not have appointed Weir...

 

[Superblades]

This came up a few weeks ago. As I said then, I don't think that's true. A few people were, but most people thought it was a dumb move.

The worst bit about getting rid of Wilson was having no manager to come in. What a thick decision to sack Wilson and then not having a manager to replace him.

 

[YES Blade]

Had Wilson not been fired, we might not have appointed Weir...

Wilson would have been sacked if he had stayed and failed to get us promoted.

Anyway if we didn't appoint Weir then we probably wouldn't have been lucky enough to get Clough!

 

[Bladesway]

The main thing this shows (once again) is how stupid the decision to fire Wilson was.

This. Stupid reaction to a bit of fuss from the fans.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

Taken in isolation, six points off automatic with two games in hand sounds like a decent position, but we were on a slump when Wilson was sacked, and it looked like we were only heading in one direction - downwards.

The board was probably influenced by the Pigs' successful managerial change the previous season, where a switch going into the final few games (Jones for Megson) gave them the momentum they needed to snatch second place.

In hindsight it was a very unfair sacking, especially as Wilson was replaced by his untried deputy (Morgan). At the time, it was a gamble that many thought was worth taking, and I remember thinkingat the time that it may have ben an inspirational decision. As it turns out, it wasn't, and it's interesting to hear LITTB say that he "has it on reasonable authority that McCabe knows he fucked up". Of course he did but hindsight is easy.

And yes, memories of the Wilson /Morgan failure has probably bought NC more time. As the autos have been out of reach for a couple of months, so there's little point in sacking him.

Strangely enough, if we were in the top two for most of the season then dropped into the play offs (with still a chance of autos) in March / April a la Wilson his job might have been in more danger than it is now,

It wasn't really a slump, we took 13 points from 18 in February including winning away at Bournemouth and 7 from 12 in March.

Although we were averaging 2 points a game which is promotion form, it was the home form that did for him, as McCabe stated. Three consecutive 0-0s going into Crawley and after losing that one and with 2 home games to follow, McCabe made his move.

As it turned out, Bournemouth had that fantastic run at the end of the season and we (Wilson) would have needed needed 5 wins from those last 5 games so it would have been unlikely but we didn't know this at the time and to me, it was a harsh decision and too late to have a major effect. The football had been dull at home but had our form been the other way around, winning at home and picking up 0-0s away (the Clough way ), would the same decision have been made ?

 

[sheffielder]

In a division where the top 2 are managed by Steve Cotterill and Simon Grayson, I'd say the dinosaurs are not only roaming the earth but flourishing. I'm not sure there's been much moving on in League 1.

I was talking about the style of football and the not the men themselves, otherwise we would be fucked. Fergie's teams evolved with the times.

 

[Bergen Blade]

It wasn't really a slump, we took 13 points from 18 in February including winning away at Bournemouth and 7 from 12 in March.

Although we were averaging 2 points a game which is promotion form, it was the home form that did for him, as McCabe stated. Three consecutive 0-0s going into Crawley and after losing that one and with 2 home games to follow, McCabe made his move.

As it turned out, Bournemouth had that fantastic run at the end of the season and we (Wilson) would have needed needed 5 wins from those last 5 games so it would have been unlikely but we didn't know this at the time and to me, it was a harsh decision and too late to have a major effect. The football had been dull at home but had our form been the other way around, winning at home and picking up 0-0s away (the Clough way ), would the same decision have been made ?

One win in six at a time when the club still hoped for automatic promotion is very poor form. The rot had set in, we were absolutely awful home and away and I don't think the sacking of Wilson meant anything at all. Our slide continued under Morgan and Weir, as it would have done if Wilson had been allowed to continue.

I agree that Danny Wilson seems like a very nice bloke though and I thought he was the bravest man on earth when he held his appointment press conference while fans were protesting outside.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

One win in six at a time when the club still hoped for automatic promotion is very poor form. The rot had set in, we were absolutely awful home and away and I don't think the sacking of Wilson meant anything at all. Our slide continued under Morgan and Weir, as it would have done if Wilson had been allowed to continue.

I agree that Danny Wilson seems like a very nice bloke though and I thought he was the bravest man on earth when he held his appointment press conference while fans were protesting outside.

You're right about the 1 in 6, I'm just making the comparison that if McCabe had applied the same decision process, Clough could easily have gone Feb/March:

Sheffield United 2–2 Coventry City
Rochdale 1–2 Sheffield United
Crawley Town 1–1 Sheffield United
Sheffield United 1–2 Peterborough United
Sheffield United 1–2 Fleetwood Town
Scunthorpe United 1–1 Sheffield United
Walsall 1–1 Sheffield United

My overall thought is that given the position we were in late November and the money he's had to spend since, he's lucky to still be here given the cut throat nature of management these days.

 

[ScoobBlade]

This came up a few weeks ago. As I said then, I don't think that's true. A few people were, but most people thought it was a dumb move.

Maybe so once it actually happened but there were plenty before hand demanding his sacking. It's always the same folk wanting a managerial change then conveniently forget they said it when it doesn't work

 

[Bergen Blade]

You're right about the 1 in 6, I'm just making the comparison that if McCabe had applied the same decision process, Clough could easily have gone Feb/March:

Sheffield United 2–2 Coventry City
Rochdale 1–2 Sheffield United
Crawley Town 1–1 Sheffield United
Sheffield United 1–2 Peterborough United
Sheffield United 1–2 Fleetwood Town
Scunthorpe United 1–1 Sheffield United
Walsall 1–1 Sheffield United

My overall thought is that given the position we were in late November and the money he's had to spend since, he's lucky to still be here given the cut throat nature of management these days.

I think it's a valid argument that Clough's only recently have added the signings that he wanted to make in pre season. They've been thrown in at a time when we've hardly had any training between matches, so it's been difficult to make them gel. In terms of how well the current squad is actually capable of performing I don't think we will know until August. The board should keep that in mind, even if we don't get promoted this season.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

I think it's a valid argument that Clough's only recently have added the signings that he wanted to make in pre season. They've been thrown in at a time when we've hardly had any training between matches, so it's been difficult to make them gel. In terms of how well the current squad is actually capable of performing I don't think we will know until August. The board should keep that in mind, even if we don't get promoted this season.

I think you're right, they'll given him until, say Xmas, even if we don't make it this season. Whether the fans will be as patient is another matter.