Willo, Monty and Watford game

[Micalijo]

Much as Fleetwood thinks we are a Willo and a left winger away from being OK, I'm afraid the first half of his masterplan is looking a bit shaky. Willo says that he has a weakness in his back (obviously) but says that even if back feels better he will have 'setbacks' because pressure will be on other parts of his body. He's doing muscle work and swimming. Light work with a ball and he says 'shouldn't be long before I'm back with the rest of the lads' which to me is wishful thinking reading between the lines. Good to see him being positive etc and I hope he's right about getting back to full training.

Feel very sorry for the lad and he's had a very rough time but my take on it is that he will not feature for us in a meaningful way. Shame because I'd love to see him at his best under Speedo.

On a different note, did anyone else piss em sens in first half when Monty had acres of space running into box, great shooting opportunity and he tried some weird reverse ball to Cresswell? To be fair, great ball into Boggy in second half from Monty, have to admit his attitude is unbelievably good.

I honestly don't think the game yesterday was as bad as some over last 3 years, a good few which we have won. On balance of play and chances I thought we desereved a point. We played with far more energy and mobility than I thought we would but we need more than that obviously.

No doubt for me that Watford, same as every other side, look far more composed when they knock the ball around. It is done with purpose, the passing opens up space for the team and the ball is under control. Our passing is hurried and very rarely ends with a man in space being able to deliver a final ball. If a team has pace, defenders have to step back and that opens space up for the passing.

 

[SwissBlade]

That almost sounds positive Mic

On the Willo situation, you could well be right and worst case, he may never be right.

But...The important thing is that until he's back in full training then he's going to be a way off because as good as cycling, swimming and gym work are they're all very controlled and nothing compares to the twisting, turning and contact of football to get all the other muscles active

Good luck to him coming back soon, he could be just what we need

 

[Linz]

Willo was at the game yesterday with Hendo and Wardy.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

Much as Fleetwood thinks we are a Willo and a left winger away from being OK

and what were we missing yesterday, a midfield that didn't get forward and help the attack. Even with three and finally four up front yetserday, nothing changed because it was defence straight up to attack or crosses from deep from the full backs with only the strikers there who were easily picked up by their markers.

Having just watched the goals from both the Prem and Chumpionship, how many are scored by midfielders arriving late in the box or picking up the 2nd ball in the box. I know Britton was injured yesterday but Monty, Squinny and Ertl are not going to give us that whereas you see players like Taraabt, Commons, King, Kebe to name 4 off the top of my head who are renowned for not only creating goals but scoring as well.

I appreciate that we can't rely on Willo getting back but it doesn't alter the fact that I still think we're a couple of midfielders away from being OK. Not challenging just yet but certainly OK for this season and beyond.

 

[alcoblade]

and what were we missing yesterday, a midfield that didn't get forward and help the attack. Even with three and finally four up front yetserday, nothing changed because it was defence straight up to attack or crosses from deep from the full backs with only the strikers there who were easily picked up by their markers.

Having just watched the goals from both the Prem and Chumpionship, how many are scored by midfielders arriving late in the box or picking up the 2nd ball in the box. I know Britton was injured yesterday but Monty, Squinny and Ertl are not going to give us that whereas you see players like Taraabt, Commons, King, Kebe to name 4 off the top of my head who are renowned for not only creating goals but scoring as well.

I appreciate that we can't rely on Willo getting back but it doesn't alter the fact that I still think we're a couple of midfielders away from being OK. Not challenging just yet but certainly OK for this season and beyond.

I agree, a decent creative midfielder and a decent forward and we're a top half championship side. From there we can build over the next year or two.

Our players aren't all bad. Probably overpaid. Definitley the wrong balance, but not all bad. The problem is that we might now have the funds for those extra players and if we don't score more we'll get relegated.

UTB

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

I agree, a decent creative midfielder and a decent forward and we're a top half championship side. From there we can build over the next year or two.

Our players aren't all bad. Probably overpaid. Definitley the wrong balance, but not all bad. The problem is that we might now have the funds for those extra players and if we don't score more we'll get relegated.

UTB

Yep, even without the strikers taking the pressure off, we've only conceded 12 goals in 10 games and when you consider 7 of those came in two games we're not doing too bad defensively. I appreciate it's a double edged sword and if the midfield do become more attacking, it means they are not protecting the defence but at the moment we're not getting in front and in a position to protect a lead and can't change when we go behind.

As we've said though, what options does Speed have at the moment.

 

[raul]

As far as I see it he has two

a) Abandon the principles in favour of points by reverting more to type and thus the existing strengths of the squad. Not pretty and maybe as yet not necessary.

b) Be brave and persist with trying to coach a shorter, quicker game with what he has for longer term benefit. This becomes increasingly difficult after every defeat as what little confidence they show in being able to do this diminishes and will at some stage require some investment.

So, pragmatism v idealism. Or is there a third way by going a) for now but ensuring every signing made in future is made with b) in mind so we change over time organically rather than the current square peg/round hole situtaion?

 

[lenners]

Speed only really has one choice to improve things and that's to go to the board for funding.
He was an absolute fool if he's taken this job on without any prospect of support in terms of getting some players in.
The team we have now will struggle to play long-ball, short-ball or any kind of football well enough to keep us up.

 

[Fiery Blade]

It appears that almost everyone on here has the consensus that our midfield is just not good enough !
Forget Williamson - if he's only swimming and cycling he's months away from competing at this level
Henderson will not change anything when he comes back and its become obvious to everyone that Evans is officially the worst £3million we have ever spent!
Speed was as good a midfielder that has ever played the game and played at such a level for such a time he knows what we want
For the clubs sake McCabe and Birch give him the wherewithal to do it!

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

Speed only really has one choice to improve things and that's to go to the board for funding.
He was an absolute fool if he's taken this job on without any prospect of support in terms of getting some players in.
The team we have now will struggle to play long-ball, short-ball or any kind of football well enough to keep us up.

Get fuckin real -£250/400K a year, I'd manage the pigs for that.

 

[lenners]

Disagree about Henderson. He would definitely make a difference compared to what we currently have up front.
Getting Evans and/or Bogdanovich out in January to free up some wages for another striker with pace would also help.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

As far as I see it he has two

a) Abandon the principles in favour of points by reverting more to type and thus the existing strengths of the squad. Not pretty and maybe as yet not necessary.

b) Be brave and persist with trying to coach a shorter, quicker game with what he has for longer term benefit. This becomes increasingly difficult after every defeat as what little confidence they show in being able to do this diminishes and will at some stage require some investment.

So, pragmatism v idealism. Or is there a third way by going a) for now but ensuring every signing made in future is made with b) in mind so we change over time organically rather than the current square peg/round hole situtaion?

Speed only really has one choice to improve things and that's to go to the board for funding.
He was an absolute fool if he's taken this job on without any prospect of support in terms of getting some players in.
The team we have now will struggle to play long-ball, short-ball or any kind of football well enough to keep us up.

Got to agree with both of you there. Undoubtedly b) but he has to pick up the results as well. It worked initially to a certain extent but then the 2nd half against Scunny happened and to me, the team haven't recovered from it. Trouble is, the longer we go without picking up a win or two, the more pressure there'll be to revert to the 'results at all costs approach' but as Len says, I'm not sure that would be easy either.

I can only presume that money is the reason we haven't brought anyone in, otherwise why is Halmosi for example, not a realistic target. We are supposedly 'monitoring his situation' but he can't even make Hull's team bus these days, an obvious talent in this division as he has proved before in a position we're crying out for.

As you've both suggested, the problem now is that he's stuck between playing a certain way and getting the results he needs and at the moment, we're getting neither.

 

[lenners]

Get fuckin real -£250/400K a year, I'd manage the pigs for that.

Thanks for that insightful, thoughtful post.
Speed would already have been on good money and certainly will not be primarily motivated by cash after the career he's had.
If he genuinely wants to be a manager long term, failure in his first outing will definitely not help.
He must have known what he was in for and he was daft to have taken it on without some assurance of help.

 

[SteelCity Blade]

Disagree about Henderson. He would definitely make a difference compared to what we currently have up front.
Getting Evans and/or Bogdanovich out in January to free up some wages for another striker with pace would also help.

I agree. Henderson makes his presence felt and gets into goal scoring positions. He is far better than anything we have on the pitch at the moment. I personally feel our best front two has always been Hendo and Wardy and I would go with that when they're both fit.

Evans.....I know he's come off the bench the last two games and I have stuck up for him before but he's simply not doing it. I'm starting to worry he never will. Not a lot wrong with Boggy but he looks fairly average from the brief moments I've seen him. I'll give him a bit longer to prove otherwise though.

As for the midfield.....there is no midfield. Two players needed there pronto.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

Disagree about Henderson. He would definitely make a difference compared to what we currently have up front.
Getting Evans and/or Bogdanovich out in January to free up some wages for another striker with pace would also help.

Yesterday was the first time I've really watched Boggy play and I thought there was a decent player in there. Much more awareness of what's around him and links up play really well, a bit of a poor man's Berbatov. I think he would be a great player in a team playing well with confidence.

I thought Cresswell was much worse yesterday, he reminds me a bit of Andy Gray when he was with us. A decent scoring record but adds nothing to the team when he's not scoring.

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

Can't agree.

He took a playing contract off us when he was a yard short of pace and past it so he has already shown that he has the same morals as me.

If he fails and gets paid off so what, he's laughing all the way to the bank.

That's modern football.

 

[lenners]

Boggy was distinctly average, one-paced and had an embarrassing attempt at the one clear chance we created.
Seen nothing in his performances that suggest goals.
I'd suspect he was acquired through the Maltese sponsorship above the heads of Blackwell and Speed, neither of whom rated him enough to want to play him until desperation set in.

---------- Post added at 12:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:56 PM ----------

Can't agree.

He took a playing contract off us when he was a yard short of pace and past it so he has already shown that he has the same morals as me.

If he fails and gets paid off so what, he's laughing all the way to the bank.

That's modern football.

Give over, he's a footballer who clearly wanted to carry on playing at a reasonable level and did so until injury finished him.
Given how long he's played in the Prem's money years, I cannot see why he'd think an extra £100,000 a year for a managerial contract at SUFC would be the be all and end all in his thinking about his future career.

 

[Foxy]

He took a playing contract off us when he was a yard short of pace and past it so he has already shown that he has the same morals as me.

If he fails and gets paid off so what, he's laughing all the way to the bank.

That's modern football.

I bet he was giggling like a schoolgirl when he ended up losing feeling in his legs and the ability to activate muscles whilst representing us too.

A very distinguished end to a long career at the top of the game.

 

[Trigger Blade]

Yesterday was the first time I've really watched Boggy play and I thought there was a decent player in there. Much more awareness of what's around him and links up play really well, a bit of a poor man's Berbatov. I think he would be a great player in a team playing well with confidence.

I thought Cresswell was much worse yesterday, he reminds me a bit of Andy Gray when he was with us. A decent scoring record but adds nothing to the team when he's not scoring.

For a big lad, Boggy's not strong, he gets knocked off the ball and falls over unfeasibly often (though not as much as Yeates, who was like a novice ice skater yesterday).

He's also not good in the air, mistimes jumps and as len said, his free header was woeful.

In helping build up play down the left hand side in the second half, he also got stranded on the touchline, when we needed him in the box.

Apart from that, he looks OK.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

For a big lad, Boggy's not strong, he gets knocked off the ball and falls over unfeasibly often (though not as much as Yeates, who was like a novice ice skater yesterday).

He's also not good in the air, mistimes jumps and as len said, his free header was woeful.

In helping build up play down the left hand side in the second half, he also got stranded on the touchline, when we needed him in the box.

Apart from that, he looks OK.

As I say, a poor man's Berbatov

Not that there was much competition but who got Man of the Match

 

[Tickhillblade]

In helping build up play down the left hand side in the second half, he also got stranded on the touchline, when we needed him in the box.

Apart from that, he looks OK.

Don't forget that Cressy was stranded on the right for long periods.

The strikers need to get into the box.

 

[wardlowwanderer]

That almost sounds positive Mic

On the Willo situation, you could well be right and worst case, he may never be right.

But...The important thing is that until he's back in full training then he's going to be a way off because as good as cycling, swimming and gym work are they're all very controlled and nothing compares to the twisting, turning and contact of football to get all the other muscles active

Good luck to him coming back soon, he could be just what we need

If you read the interview with him in yesterday's programme, you get the feeling that he won't be back this season and I personally doubt he'll play much football again after the problems/operations he's had. If his contract is up this season we need to offload him because he's a drain on our very limited finacial resources.

 

[super_pig]

>I agree, a decent creative midfielder and a decent forward and we're a top half championship side
thing is most of us have been saying this for three years.. to most people it is so obvious that it beggars belief.. here comes 'another' monty thread i reckon

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

I wasn't laughin watchin him

 

[Ollessendro]

Much as Fleetwood thinks we are a Willo and a left winger away from being OK, I'm afraid the first half of his masterplan is looking a bit shaky. Willo says that he has a weakness in his back (obviously) but says that even if back feels better he will have 'setbacks' because pressure will be on other parts of his body. He's doing muscle work and swimming. Light work with a ball and he says 'shouldn't be long before I'm back with the rest of the lads' which to me is wishful thinking reading between the lines. Good to see him being positive etc and I hope he's right about getting back to full training.

Feel very sorry for the lad and he's had a very rough time but my take on it is that he will not feature for us in a meaningful way. Shame because I'd love to see him at his best under Speedo.

On a different note, did anyone else piss em sens in first half when Monty had acres of space running into box, great shooting opportunity and he tried some weird reverse ball to Cresswell? To be fair, great ball into Boggy in second half from Monty, have to admit his attitude is unbelievably good.

I honestly don't think the game yesterday was as bad as some over last 3 years, a good few which we have won. On balance of play and chances I thought we desereved a point. We played with far more energy and mobility than I thought we would but we need more than that obviously.

No doubt for me that Watford, same as every other side, look far more composed when they knock the ball around. It is done with purpose, the passing opens up space for the team and the ball is under control. Our passing is hurried and very rarely ends with a man in space being able to deliver a final ball. If a team has pace, defenders have to step back and that opens space up for the passing.

Willo and Henderson could be the difference between us finishing in the bottom 3 and being safe. Despite Ertl's limitations, he is solid and would make a good partner for Williamson (along with Britton). Willo would add a lot to the side in terms of creativity. I'd advocate a midfield 3 with Ertl, Britton and Williamson and play Henderson on this own up front. The problem is (as Mic says) can we rely on either of them? Especially Williamson. What is the maximum number of consecutve games they've played in a United shirt? The other factor is pressure to bring them back quickly. It is obvious that the team would be much better withy Willo and Hendo, but we can't rush them back and risk further injury.

 

[SwissBlade]

Its funny how so many people blamed Hendo for our poor performances and now see him as the saviour

 

[boo radley]

. I'd advocate a midfield 3 with Ertl, Britton and Williamson and play Henderson on this own up front.

Are we having a back six then?

 

[Coily]

Speed would already have been on good money and certainly will not be primarily motivated by cash after the career he's had.
If he genuinely wants to be a manager long term, failure in his first outing will definitely not help.
He must have known what he was in for and he was daft to have taken it on without some assurance of help.

I'm sure he's taken all these things into consideration, but as first jobs go we are a big one to take. But if he can turn the playing style around and keep us in this division this season then it will be a good start. But it will take time, and he'll also have to go with what he has more or less until January. If after that month we are still in trouble but without any investment in the team then we'd all have grounds to go berserk.

The results haven't been great, we ALL know that, but Speed's first moves seem astute enough. He's got a deputy keeper he trusts, a good young defender from one of the top clubs (and didn't we need him after injuries to Morgan and the ever improving Bartley) and a good ball playing right back who has already earned us two extra points.

---------- Post added at 09:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:39 AM ----------

Are we having a back six then?

That should help the goals for stats!!!

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

Its funny how so many people blamed Hendo for our poor performances and now see him as the saviour

I was one of those saying we were worse with Hendo in the team but that was under Blackwell. I'd like to see him playing under Speed as he certainly holds the ball up well and if he got it to feet to hold up rather than at his neck, he could be an asset in the way Speed wants to play.

Jeez, I was even sat there on Saturday thinking I'd take Tongy on loan in this team

 

[SteelCity Blade]

I was one of those saying we were worse with Hendo in the team but that was under Blackwell. I'd like to see him playing under Speed as he certainly holds the ball up well and if he got it to feet to hold up rather than at his neck, he could be an asset in the way Speed wants to play.

Jeez, I was even sat there on Saturday thinking I'd take Tongy on loan in this team

Agree with a lot of that Jim. I've always liked Hendo personally and think he is a better footballer than he's given credit for; or been allowed to show. I think he has a lot to offer when he comes back from injury. I appreciate that he swings his arms a bit and gets himself in bother and he clearly needs to work on that. I dont think his reputation helps him though.

I would have Tongey back in the blink of an eye. He's exactly the sort of player we're crying out for. Someone that can run with the ball and carry it into the oppo half. I dont think we can do it financially though. Not even sure if Speed would go there if we could. Not sure what his views are on Tongey.

When the current squad are fully fit I would go with Henderson and Ward up front, swapping either/or with Cresswell as form/fitness dictates. I always thought Hendo and Wardy linked up well in the short time they played together up top.