Why is Bramall Lane not a listed building?

[Cerberus Blade]

yes.....BUT

To just extend a stand around a corner,

- if the stands have the same rake, then they can meet simply and everything is neat and tidy.

- if the two stands have different rakes, then I think I'm right in saying that the steeper one of the two must be extended to form the corner. Otherwise there will be areas of the new terracing that haven't got a direct view of the pitch (sorry snooty, but this is geometry).

- so if the Kop were extended around on a curve, as it has a very shallow rake, it couldn't have seats right round it because there would be blind spots as it would end up lower than the terraces of the John Street Stand where the two meet. You could curve it round before it was inline with the John Street stand but you would lose a lot of the current seats. Then there is the additional problem that boxes at the back of the John Street form a vertical wall (too close to the pitch) and soon get in the way of any new terracing in that corner...this is what the problem is at the moment. Are there still seats there from which you just cannot see the pitch or have they taken them out yet?

- I believe that the proposed scheme is just a new second tier because of this problem but building that does nothing to improve the Kop seating, which is uncomfortably cramped because of its shallow rake.

It should be noted that the architects of the South Stand built it a long way back from the pitch so that when a new John Street stand was built, it could match height of the South Stand because you would move the pitch southwards to give it enough room. In building a John Street Stand to match the South Stand, you would obscure the view for thousands of seats in the Bramall Lane Stand and the Kop so would have to undertake more extensive building work.

In other words, there was a masterplan, but like most masterplans, it wasn't followed through, the design of the John Street stand has compromised development ever since it was built - I believe the club lost control of its design for contractual reasons.

If you want to expand the stadium, then the most organised way is probably to still move the John Street Stand closer to the South Stand but there would have to be serious demolition and restructuring of the Kop (& possible relocation nearer Shoreham Street)....you may think that that would be no bad thing? but it certainly wouldn't come cheap.

and of course you'd have to demolish the John Street stand itself which is still quite new - it takes a lot of boldness and cash to do that.

If you did that, you could have a stadium united under a roof the same height all the way round, but by putting a second tier on the Kop and South Stands you start making it lobsided - not as badly lobsided as St. James Park or Elland Road, but it is inherently, sub-optimal IMO.

But if it was "lobsided" (as you call it), then it would qualify as a "listed" building wouldn't it?

 

[Bert]

The oval bowls are horrible, far better a ground with individual stands which each have their own identities.

 

[vorpal blade]

Ha yes, I realise that - and I've been to most of the grounds in the country as you probably have too. TBW57

I'm 100% with you about disliking the Meccano style Swansea/Derby/Reading/ insert team name as appropriate F.C. grounds.

In the case of Bramall Lane, I would say that its one thing to develop organically throughout the years with consequent differences in style but its another to lurch from one ill thought through development to another; each one only shaped ONLY by immediate exingency. That is why the corners are such a mess.

I love variety in a stadium but we could have had that but STILL had nicely fitting, usable corners but that's what we haven't got. I'd note that when Bramall Lane was a cricket ground, it had much variety in the stands and pavillion but it had smooth rounded corners of terracing that provided a lot of capacity. They are all lost now and what is left is a right mess.

Well designed new stadia CAN be beautiful and still the same all the way round. Trouble with the new ones that I refer to above is that they are just cheaply done and uninventive (hence they all, give or take the colour of the seats feel the same).

If they ever build it, the new Chelsea stadium will show something different and what can be acheived and there are numerous new stadia around the world that are really beautiful.

An obvious way to enhance Bramall Lane immediately would be to landscape the hill that the Kop is built on and seriously improve the way it appears from Shoreham Street - this would also score planning 'brownie-points' for any other new work, this could even be carried on round the corner into John Street to mitigate the impact of the stands and vastly improve that street. But even such simple measures to make the area nicer are ignored.

loads of ways to make 'good' architecture, interesting, in fact you don't really get 'good', 'dull' architecture do you?

 

[snootyfenooty]

The oval bowls are horrible, far better a ground with individual stands which each have their own identities.

Definitely. Evolution not ovalution. Or should that be ovulation not revolution. Time for my pills I think.

 

[snootyfenooty]

An obvious way to enhance Bramall Lane immediately would be to landscape the hill that the Kop is built on and seriously improve the way it appears from Shoreham Street - this would also score planning 'brownie-points' for any other new work, this could even be carried on round the corner into John Street to mitigate the impact of the stands and vastly improve that street. But even such simple measures to make the area nicer are ignored.

I've often thought that. It would only cost a few grand to plant some rhododendron bushes and install a few coloured spotlights.

 

[Bert]

Ha yes, I realise that - and I've been to most of the grounds in the country as you probably have too. TBW57

I'm 100% with you about disliking the Meccano style Swansea/Derby/Reading/ insert team name as appropriate F.C. grounds.

In the case of Bramall Lane, I would say that its one thing to develop organically throughout the years with consequent differences in style but its another to lurch from one ill thought through development to another; each one only shaped ONLY by immediate exingency. That is why the corners are such a mess.

I love variety in a stadium but we could have had that but STILL had nicely fitting, usable corners but that's what we haven't got. I'd note that when Bramall Lane was a cricket ground, it had much variety in the stands and pavillion but it had smooth rounded corners of terracing that provided a lot of capacity. They are all lost now and what is left is a right mess.

Well designed new stadia CAN be beautiful and still the same all the way round. Trouble with the new ones that I refer to above is that they are just cheaply done and uninventive (hence they all, give or take the colour of the seats feel the same).

If they ever build it, the new Chelsea stadium will show something different and what can be acheived and there are numerous new stadia around the world that are really beautiful.

An obvious way to enhance Bramall Lane immediately would be to landscape the hill that the Kop is built on and seriously improve the way it appears from Shoreham Street - this would also score planning 'brownie-points' for any other new work, this could even be carried on round the corner into John Street to mitigate the impact of the stands and vastly improve that street. But even such simple measures to make the area nicer are ignored.

loads of ways to make 'good' architecture, interesting, in fact you don't really get 'good', 'dull' architecture do you?

Bert quite likes the idea that our ground is a big ugly concrete and steel structure jutting out near the city centre. One where you can still feel this history rather than admire the aesthetics.

 

[Dellas Cowboys]

The Trinity Road stand at Villa Park should've been listed in my view. One of the loveliest bits of architecture to be found at a football ground. Replaced by a featureless glass and cladding facade instead...

View attachment 20970

looks to me like a cross between a English seaside hotel, an asylum and a fire station

 

[TBW57]

Here is a lovely art deco stand we can all admire. It's at Donkey Lane, the home of Enfield Town.

Those terraces are a bit basic, though.

 

[JohnDenver]

Here is a lovely art deco stand we can all admire. It's at Donkey Lane, the home of Enfield Town.

Those terraces are a bit basic, though.

That is marvellous. Although are you sure that it's not just a lido behind the football ground?

 

[TBW57]

That is marvellous. Although are you sure that it's not just a lido behind the football ground?

Bless you, JD. There's a clue to the building's function in the word CAFE painted in huge letters on the top. It does look a bit like the old dairy on Broadfield Road though, don't you think?

 

[vorpal blade]

its fantastic, its concrete

(largely)

is that a listed building? There is a great dearth of Art Deco sporting architecture in Britain, apart from the odd Lido of course! Highbury, obviously, but it wasn't in this streamlined style (Highbury might be termed 'moderne'?).

The old pavillion at Headingley was pretty nice and more this style wasn't it?

 

[PeterNdlovu081]

If you did that, you could have a stadium united under a roof the same height all the way round, but by putting a second tier on the Kop and South Stands you start making it lobsided - not as badly lobsided as St. James Park or Elland Road, but it is inherently, sub-optimal IMO.

I'd hate for Bramall Lane to be a symmetrical bowl with all stands the same height/rake.

Give me lopsided any day. All the best grounds are lopsided including the two you mentioned.

 

[CarlMcBlade]

What the fuck is the matter with some people. When I first went to the Lane it had 3 sides, 2,000 seats, you stood ankle deep in piss in the bogs and .......... well, I could go on. In short it was a fucking dump, an embarrassment and you actually looked forward to derby matches so you could visit a proper ground. Now we have a cracking ground with great atmosphere (that is, when you lot stop fucking moaning) and beats the shit out of that shed across the city. I can only conclude that the pedantics making such stupid comments on geometrical alignment and the hotel being a few meters too close to the south stand are still in fuckin' nappies.

Go and sit in the pavillion then.

 

[SUFC Handsworth]

"An obvious way to enhance Bramall Lane immediately would be to landscape the hill that the Kop is built on and seriously improve the way it appears from Shoreham Street - this would also score planning 'brownie-points' for any other new work, this could even be carried on round the corner into John Street to mitigate the impact of the stands and vastly improve that street. But even such simple measures to make the area nicer are ignored."

This is one of my bug-bears with the Lane, especially driving down East Bank Road or getting the tram in to town. The facade of the Kop, for me, should spring out and grab peoples attention, not in a tacky way, but there should be something there that is iconic on the landscape, that says, we boss this city, this is Bramall Lane home of SUFC, a strong feature that stands out.

 

[HighfieldBlade]

It does look a bit like the old dairy on Broadfield Road though, don't you think?

I love that old building! Used to go past it when I went to Heeley Baths.