What is our formation?

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Bergen Blade

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There seems to be a slight confusion regarding our most used formation this season. Some people seems to think we're playing 3-4-2-1, others see it as 3-5-2.

As an example, the predicted team by the SUW podcast suggests it's 3-4-2-1 with Berge and Ndiaye behind the main striker:

Formation SUW.JPG

And even Hecky commented after the Hull game that they wanted Berge and Ndiaye to get on the ball behind Jebbo and cause problems. Doyle was also clearly operating deeper alongside Norwood, making himself available for the ball, like in this instance:

Formation Hull4.JPG

So while Berge has ran forward, Doyle is staying deep, helping Norwood and the centre halves to get moves going. So it must be 3-4-2-1 then?

BUT - formations are most commonly described as how players line up without the ball. Even then it can be hard to assess. For example, even off the ball, players break out of their department to press. Other players track back to mark, or chase a runner. When we're under pressure our strikers can also be seen helping out deep in our half. Gegenpressing sees a lot of players storm towards the opponent in possession, making the defensive shape difficult to categorise.

But there are occasions when the team concedes that they won't win back possession and then they surrender to a certain preplanned general shape that they want to keep as the opposition team builds an attack. This, to me, is the team's formation. Let's agree that we play with three centre backs and two wing backs. So let's try to look at how our midfield line up in a few situations vs Hull:

Formation Hull.JPG

Formation Hull2.JPG

Formation Hull3.JPG


Berge's defensive position is the main thing to consider here. Unlike Ndiaye, when the opposition has possession Berge tries to get back in line with Norwood and Doyle. In terms of formation this means we're playing with a midfield three, in which Norwood is usually the deepest and most central. It means our formation is 3-5-2.

However when we're in possession we want Berge to get forward, while Doyle more often stays a little deeper.

Berge did receive quite mixed reviews after the Hull game. I think Roy summed it up well on BladesPod when he said he thought at the time Berge had a pretty ordinary game, but after watching the highlights, where Berge figured in a lot of our better moves, it seemed like he had a great game! Others have said recently that he's looked disinterested and a few wants him sold. I think it should be noted that Berge is being asked to do two roles which are quite demanding. He's got to get back in midfield when we defend, while he's also required to get forward and into the box when we attack. For a 96 kilo man it's a tough ask, but I think he's getting back to a good level of fitness. He has clearly struggled to fulfill the demands after that last injury of his.
 

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  • Formation Hull.JPG
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I’ve thought this aswell we’ve mostly played 3-5-2 that’s been labelled otherwise although against Milwall in the cup and Hull we’ve played a genuine 3-4-2-1. Berge vs Hull would drop in to make that 3-5-2 but on the ball he’s pushed on, which I think was a different defensive shape to when McAtee played there against Milwall, he stayed wider. We don’t usually do this we’d typically have two either side of Norwood in a more orthodox midfield position throughout the game. I think we look so much more dangerous in transition and pressing when we intentionally play someone further forward though and we haven’t done that so much this season.

The flat three shape is very solid out of possession. At times when we played with just two in there and someone pushed further forward we’ve really hurt teams, but out of possession it can be an issue. If Hecky had one regret from his time here so far it would probably be starting in the 3-4-1-2 that we played in the home leg against Forest. The shape was all wrong but we’d just dismantled Fulham a week earlier with it, we won’t consistently play with only two in midfield because of that I think, we’re more balanced on both sides of the ball with the midfield three.
 
I think we expect so much from Ndiaye attacking/pressing wise that we think nothing of dropping Berge deeper for most of the game to focus more on midfield solidity, which does Berge no favours
 
3-5-2 for me, without too much debate.

I think sometimes it looks like the LCM is deeper than the RCM because we attack more up that side. When the ball gets switched over to the right only Berge and Baldock are there, and both have to be high. When Stevens, Robinson, Doyle and a striker are attacking up the left, it makes sense for Doyle to drop a bit deeper to find space, whereas the LWB and striker tend to be on the last man.

Berge is good at driving with the ball, so when he does pick it up he often ends up on the touch line. Doyle isn't, so will cut inside and find a cross, shot or pass. This may also give the impression he plays deeper.
 
We defend in a 5-3-2. We do that better with Bogle and Lowe because they have the mobility to get up the wing and turn it into a 3-5-2, in which case at times that moves further into a 3-1-4-2 with Norwood being the pivot, but that depends on which side the opposition counter on. Berge has less bite than say Doyle or Osborn so if the counter is up his side then Norwood has to sweep leaving a gap in the midfield. Fast counterattacking teams which have a decent plan to dispossess, find a target and get five players up to our 18 yard box within 15 seconds can do us serious damage. It's fortunate that Norwood these days is into the tackle quick with the ball carriers or forces him wide and stalls the attack.

But defending, we straight line it across the back in a five.

pommpey
 
It's mainly 3-5-2 to me, but it probably should be more of a 3-4-2-1 when Berge is playing, as he's so anonymous in that flat midfield. It did look more like that at the end of last season with MGW, Berge and NDiaye the front 3.

In reality though, it probably changes all the time, and even several times per game. Formations are intended to be fluid now and there will also be instructions from the sidelines that tweak it.
 
There seems to be a slight confusion regarding our most used formation this season. Some people seems to think we're playing 3-4-2-1, others see it as 3-5-2.

As an example, the predicted team by the SUW podcast suggests it's 3-4-2-1 with Berge and Ndiaye behind the main striker:

View attachment 152355

And even Hecky commented after the Hull game that they wanted Berge and Ndiaye to get on the ball behind Jebbo and cause problems. Doyle was also clearly operating deeper alongside Norwood, making himself available for the ball, like in this instance:

View attachment 152356

So while Berge has ran forward, Doyle is staying deep, helping Norwood and the centre halves to get moves going. So it must be 3-4-2-1 then?

BUT - formations are most commonly described as how players line up without the ball. Even then it can be hard to assess. For example, even off the ball, players break out of their department to press. Other players track back to mark, or chase a runner. When we're under pressure our strikers can also be seen helping out deep in our half. Gegenpressing sees a lot of players storm towards the opponent in possession, making the defensive shape difficult to categorise.

But there are occasions when the team concedes that they won't win back possession and then they surrender to a certain preplanned general shape that they want to keep as the opposition team builds an attack. This, to me, is the team's formation. Let's agree that we play with three centre backs and two wing backs. So let's try to look at how our midfield line up in a few situations vs Hull:

View attachment 152361

View attachment 152362

View attachment 152363


Berge's defensive position is the main thing to consider here. Unlike Ndiaye, when the opposition has possession Berge tries to get back in line with Norwood and Doyle. In terms of formation this means we're playing with a midfield three, in which Norwood is usually the deepest and most central. It means our formation is 3-5-2.

However when we're in possession we want Berge to get forward, while Doyle more often stays a little deeper.

Berge did receive quite mixed reviews after the Hull game. I think Roy summed it up well on BladesPod when he said he thought at the time Berge had a pretty ordinary game, but after watching the highlights, where Berge figured in a lot of our better moves, it seemed like he had a great game! Others have said recently that he's looked disinterested and a few wants him sold. I think it should be noted that Berge is being asked to do two roles which are quite demanding. He's got to get back in midfield when we defend, while he's also required to get forward and into the box when we attack. For a 96 kilo man it's a tough ask, but I think he's getting back to a good level of fitness. He has clearly struggled to fulfill the demands after that last injury of his.
Interesting, but when we are watching do we see any of this or just get lost in the play, incidents and goals.
 


The problem here is that Hamer will instinctively move out to the left channel and try to drift in from there or supply crosses, playing Archer & Mcatee I wouldn't be expecting too many crosses, unless Larouci can get in the box to support them with his height, Souza will drop back as defensive cover, as he does.
then the opposing team would attack Bogle (who we know can't defend,) which leaves Baldock exposed and Souza being pulled out of position to support him.

I would push Souza into central midfield with instructions to go forward when the opportunity is there, he is much better than Berge ever was in this role, he is one player that uses his strength, (again Berge rarely used his strength to good effect) and play with a back four with the midfield quartet told to move back on-block when the opposing team is pushing onto us.

One problem i've seen is Souza is currently playing as defensive cover and he's being dragged all over the place because of Bogles weakness in defending.
 
The problem here is that Hamer will instinctively move out to the left channel and try to drift in from there or supply crosses, playing Archer & Mcatee I wouldn't be expecting too many crosses, unless Larouci can get in the box to support them with his height, Souza will drop back as defensive cover, as he does.
then the opposing team would attack Bogle (who we know can't defend,) which leaves Baldock exposed and Souza being pulled out of position to support him.

I would push Souza into central midfield with instructions to go forward when the opportunity is there, he is much better than Berge ever was in this role, he is one player that uses his strength, (again Berge rarely used his strength to good effect) and play with a back four with the midfield quartet told to move back on-block when the opposing team is pushing onto us.

One problem i've seen is Souza is currently playing as defensive cover and he's being dragged all over the place because of Bogles weakness in defending.

Sorry, Souza is better than Berge was going forward. Is that a joke?

Souza never even plays the ball forward never mind going forward.

Ironically Berge and Souza would probably work quite well, Souza would hold the ball and pass to Berge to progress, which we’re missing this season.

We only seem to have McAtee who want so to go forward, with Hamer sometimes.

Last season it was Berge, McAtee, Doyle, Ndiaye, Anel etc.

This is why we’re so flat, no one dare go forward.
 
We've still conceded 7 goals in two games with four at the back so god knows what formation we should play. I do think the midfield needs packing though.
 
Sorry, Souza is better than Berge was going forward. Is that a joke?

Souza never even plays the ball forward never mind going forward.

Ironically Berge and Souza would probably work quite well, Souza would hold the ball and pass to Berge to progress, which we’re missing this season.

We only seem to have McAtee who want so to go forward, with Hamer sometimes.

Last season it was Berge, McAtee, Doyle, Ndiaye, Anel etc.

This is why we’re so flat, no one dare go forward.
Hamer Souza Doyle would've been decent.
 
Sorry, Souza is better than Berge was going forward. Is that a joke?

Souza never even plays the ball forward never mind going forward.

Ironically Berge and Souza would probably work quite well, Souza would hold the ball and pass to Berge to progress, which we’re missing this season.

We only seem to have McAtee who want so to go forward, with Hamer sometimes.

Last season it was Berge, McAtee, Doyle, Ndiaye, Anel etc.

This is why we’re so flat, no one dare go forward.Souza is often seen hovering around the 18 yard line, on the few occasions we get that far up the pitch, easily picked out with his white hair,


If you watch the last few matches you can can see him hovering around the 18 yard box, on the occasion we get that far up the pitch, easily picked out with his hair colour and his size. Usually down the left channel trying to link with Harmer, sometimes centre mid' he does get up there and he drives harder than Berge ever did.

I also think he could be a good captain, if you watch "inside Shirecliffe" podcast on tube you can see he has a big personality, he's also a big unit !! Check it out, you'll probably think they are all having a jolly good time, I think our fan base hasn't picked up on this yet 🤣🤣
 
Formation.

Dictated solely by injuries.
Likely to change weekly.

Wont make any difference to results or performances. No alteration is going to make Souza quicker. Robbo calm on the hall. Bogle a defender. Players fitter and faster. To be fair you could say any of them better in possession.

Just skip the lot until May is my advice
 
We seem to kick off play a tiny bit then morph into a all defence mode and Souza ends up not in midfield so Hamer and McAtee can’t get the ball and a striker ends up defending.
 
Wes

Anyone fit-Anyone fit-Anyone fit-Anyone fit.

Anyone fit-Anyone fit-Anyone fit-Anyone fit.

Anyone fit-Anyone fit.

I think this will be it for the next game v Wolves, although, Hecky may change it a bit!?
 
I may have misinterpreted this (unlikely) - are you suggesting Wes is, or isn't, a hottie?
Never really looked at a chap like that, but I thought, hes probably our only option in goal currently?
 
The problem here is that Hamer will instinctively move out to the left channel and try to drift in from there or supply crosses, playing Archer & Mcatee I wouldn't be expecting too many crosses, unless Larouci can get in the box to support them with his height, Souza will drop back as defensive cover, as he does.
then the opposing team would attack Bogle (who we know can't defend,) which leaves Baldock exposed and Souza being pulled out of position to support him.

I would push Souza into central midfield with instructions to go forward when the opportunity is there, he is much better than Berge ever was in this role, he is one player that uses his strength, (again Berge rarely used his strength to good effect) and play with a back four with the midfield quartet told to move back on-block when the opposing team is pushing onto us.

One problem i've seen is Souza is currently playing as defensive cover and he's being dragged all over the place because of Bogles weakness in defending.
Larouci to support them with his height? he's 5'8" for God's sake
 
My 11 to smash the Wolves..

Wes

Baldock Trusty Robinson

Bogle Slimane Souza Thomas

Hamer McAtee

Brewster


(Subs)
Davies
Larouci
Lowe
Osborn
Norwood
Fleck
Archer
Osula
Traore
 
I think we should at least give time on the field to new&younger players instead of Fleck and co as it seems not to affect to result
Just think to be signed or being on the bench in Prem game and Fleck goes in before You :/
 

Identical to something I suggested the other day.

Keeper and back four picks itself. Will be good to have Baldock back.

We have to try Hamer in a central position at some stage. I think it's been a problem for him that he's had to do a lot of running off the ball from wideish starting positions, trying to get forward and then tracking back to help out defensively, often not appearing brilliant at either. Although there's been signs of his quality he's not got involved enough and always seem to tire in second halves. He's not really got the pace to take on and get past PL defenders, so we need to try something different, the role he did so well at Coventry, from a deeper starting position. There will be a bit less running around and chasing shadows, but we should expect him to have the energy to dictate and progress our play.

Souza should keep his place. I think a lot of people are not aware that his role in the team has varied quite a bit so far. We've tried different formation tweaks, he's played RCM and been asked to man mark (Arsenal in particular). There's been faults in his game, he's frustrated me a lot, but I think it's worth letting him have the role that he's best at, holding midfield, trying to be the shield in front of the centre halves, not man marking one specific bloke out on the side line.

Souza is not a marathon runner, but he's strong and can put in a tackle. I've seen some opposition players backing out of challenges against him. I think his defensive stats will improve if he's being asked to play a simpler game where he can win more second balls, get important tackles and blocks in. I will also add that his pass completion of 85% is the best in the squad (apart from a Archer who only make a handful of passes each game) and some of the subs. Norwood's is 73%, Hamer 71. Souza usually finds a teammate.

Regarding the choice of midfield wide men we should try to be realistic and pragmatic. Hamer has struggled to make an impact from those positions. McAtee has shown signs, but again he's been having to use a lot of energy helping full backs out. I don't see us outplaying teams at this level. Trying to carve through teams with patient, neat passing down the flanks is unlikely to give us a lot of goals.

So let's go for something different. Let's try two wing backs in wide midfield; Bogle and Larouci. Defensively they're not great full backs, but they ARE trained defenders and should be competitive and add aggression and energy. We've conceded a lot of goals from crosses, so having two sets of full back types may help preventing so many coming in! On the attack they've both contributed already with an assist and a goal. I'd hope Larouci's pace can be useful when we counter attack, and Bogle may be a goal threat when he gets into the box.

Slightly in front of the midfield I'd try McAtee. We should look for him as we counter and hopefully we'll see some driving runs up the pitch. Hopefully, in a number 10 role he'll be able to conserve some energy for those runs, and increase the chance of them giving telling results.

Archer or Brewster to alternate up front. Archer has more pace and is more composed in front of goal. Brewster may be a little stronger.

Main aim would be to be more competitive, harder to play against, maybe turn games into more like cup ties - hard to break down, but still capable of creating on the break. I'd be nervous at defensive set pieces, because the above is a small team.

I think Hecky will be tempted to try something like this, but worry that he will stick with Norwood and in an attempt to add solidity to midfield, rather than going for Bogle/Larouci will turn to the old favourites Osborn and Fleck in wide roles. They may do a job, but we'd lose counter attacking qualities, pace and goal threat.
 

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